1009 Maw of Souls runs needed to max out Artifact in 7.2

[rhorle]

It's a problem because raids are now tuned around having a certain amount of Traits, so you can't avoid grinding them.

It isn't a problem because the players that are doing that content are expected to be at those Artifact levels from the content they have been doing up until now. Why did you or anyone else ever think that Blizzard would not account for Artifact level in balance? Why is it bad that they take player balance into account? Its the same principle behind why a new raid has higher gear requirements then the previous, because player power has increased from doing the previous raid/content.

Plenty of players have asked for Alternate progression systems in WoW. A way to keep progressing your character in a level-based system once reaching the level cap. If you think anyone that wants that is not sane then it shows that the flaw is with you. Anyone who doesn't agree with your view is insane which again points out that the larger problem with Artifacts is around how the players treats and views them.

[IceMan1763]

It isn't a problem because the players that are doing that content are expected to be at those Artifact levels from the content they have been doing up until now. Why did you or anyone else ever think that Blizzard would not account for Artifact level in balance? Why is it bad that they take player balance into account? Its the same principle behind why a new raid has higher gear requirements then the previous, because player power has increased from doing the previous raid/content.

Plenty of players have asked for Alternate progression systems in WoW. A way to keep progressing your character in a level-based system once reaching the level cap. If you think anyone that wants that is not sane then it shows that the flaw is with you. Anyone who doesn't agree with your view is insane which again points out that the larger problem with Artifacts is around how the players treats and views them.

Especially in the context of Mythic raiding, the game is tuned around players who play 10+ hours per day. The majority of that time is spent grinding the hell out of dungeons WAY below their skill level primarily for AP (at this point). And yes, that is a problem for a HUGE swatch of players who enjoy challenging content but like, have jobs and stuff. It's also an unprecedented and additional requirement for Mythic raiders.

Perhaps insane was a bit much, but players ask for lots of things in WOW, that doesn't mean they're good ideas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbT-cW8Zb7o

Also, just because players asked for alternate progression I wouldn't say they're insane. I would say they're insane if they asked for it and don't see the value (especially after seeing the system in action) of a reasonable capping system to level the playing field, allow an end point to the grind after a certain amount of hours per week, stretch the system out over the course of the expansion, and allow the devs a definite tuning point in regard to weapon power. The lack of a cap is honestly what takes the system from something I could support and live with to something I vehemently hate.

[Raiju]

Especially in the context of Mythic raiding, the game is tuned around players who play 10+ hours per day.

Unless you mistyped and meant the mythic race, absolutely incorrect. Mythic raiding is still completely viable on less than 10 hours a week (that includes out of raid time) on a level where you will likely finish NH before tomb comes out.

[IceMan1763]

Unless you mistyped and meant the mythic race, absolutely incorrect. Mythic raiding is still completely viable on less than 10 hours a week (that includes out of raid time) on a level where you will likely finish NH before tomb comes out.

So people who can't play 10+ hours a day just have to wipe for a few months until they can get the required number of traits?

Great design. /end sarcasm

[Vasortflam]

If someone does 1000 MoS runs to max their weapon, it's because they wanted to do it. You'd have to be in a bleeding edge guild to require that kind of work. The rest of us will go at our own pace and then replace our artifact with a level 980 blue at the start of the next expansion.

Im really curious how they are going to transition out of the legendaries next expansion.

[Deleted]

Im really curious how they are going to transition out of the legendaries next expansion.

The same way they did it the last 2 expansions perhaps?

So people who can't play 10+ hours a day just have to wipe for a few months until they can get the required number of traits?

Great design. /end sarcasm

If you need a few months of 10+ hours a day AP farm with the current systems in place to be somewhat valid for mythic raiding then it's fairy safe to say we have a PEBKAC-situation here.
2 hours a day for 3 months without any catch-up mechanics in place was enough for me (that is non-raid time).
And i'm one of those lazy bums who never really did much M+s.

[IceMan1763]

The same way they did it the last 2 expansions perhaps?


If you need a few months of 10+ hours a day AP farm with the current systems in place to be somewhat valid for mythic raiding then it's fairy safe to say we have a PEBKAC-situation here.
2 hours a day for 3 months without any catch-up mechanics in place was enough for me (that is non-raid time).
And i'm one of those lazy bums who never really did much M+s.

When you say "enough for you". Are you saying "enough for you" to be relevant for Mythic raiding or does that mean you're at 54 Traits?

[Deleted]

Especially in the context of Mythic raiding, the game is tuned around players who play 10+ hours per day.

This is just demonstrably false. There are many guilds that raid 6-8 hours a week and easily clear mythic Content in a timely manner. Heck, there are top100 guilds that really only raid 8 hours a week and countless others that are justa tad behind.

If you play well and manage your time efficiently, you can easily get by with 10-12 hours a week total playing time. But it requires something of you, ofc.

[Zenfoldor]

Read and understand:

AK = Gating mechanism, which still allows for progress beyond the gate for those so inclined(as it should)

Remember the MOP legendary cloak quest which required several weeks of valor points? Remember how alts were useless without the cloak? Remember how much everyone hated having a strict gating mechanism that limited the amount people could "grind" if they wanted to get caught up?

AK is the answer to that. Gating is necessary, but progression restrictions suck. Hence AK.

So, AK is a good thing. It is implemented well and its intent is clear and necessary.

The endless AP trait, on the other hand, has a bit of a problem still and needs to be refined. It isn't ideal to give pure damage increases as rewards for endless grinding. The idea is sound but pure damage increases for the work lead to the work becoming mandatory.

Instead, the "endless" trait should increase AP and give new utility and QoL improvements as it increases. The stam buff can stay, getting higher stam with each point feels good but not mandatory. Instead of pure damage increases, you should get stuff like fast recovery, raid summons, higher run speed(a big one), flight(bake it in to the cheeve), slightly longer cast distance, and even huge damage buffs and health shields in the open world(not raids), water walking, ect. Stuff that really sucks to not have(after you know you can get it) but also stuff that doesn't hurt your throughput.

By slightly augmenting what the paragon trait provides(utility and awesome qol instead of throughput) you limit the need for grinding it on alts, and basically fix the game.

Anytime Blizzard has tied straight throughput increases to specified heavy workload things(AP, legendary) the results have caused burnout and sadness for alts. You can still create compelling increases to a character without having straight thru-put upgrades in raids on your grind, and people will still grind the hell out of it, but they won't feel compelled to do so on all their toons, and they won't fall behind and become depressed because of it.

If you still have to tie throughput to it, do it to a level that can be relatively easily reached(say 10 points in) and then after that switch to your utility buffs.

[IceMan1763]

This is just demonstrably false. There are many guilds that raid 6-8 hours a week and easily clear mythic Content in a timely manner. Heck, there are top100 guilds that really only raid 8 hours a week and countless others that are justa tad behind.

If you play well and manage your time efficiently, you can easily get by with 10-12 hours a week total playing time. But it requires something of you, ofc.

If it's so demonstrably false, then demonstrate it.

For a counter, I grant you Vision, one of the best 3 day guilds out there. I checked a little over half their roster and found 1 person at 53 traits, everyone else was at 54:
Vision M Spellblade kill

[Masternewt]

I feel like Halls of Valor ...



... no one wants to do me.

[RobertMugabe]

I strongly suggest you look up the difference between "1 day" and "many months". Even maxing AK will take 75 days. But yeah, sure, keep using that strawman.

It's fascinating how you are completely missing the point and don't understand sarcasm

[Echocho]

I feel the problem is that Blizzard keep moving goal post, and they've done this with a lot of things the last few expansions.
You think you're finally done with the AP grind and then they do a sort of soft reset so you have to start all over again, and then near the end of the expansion they'll most likely make the whole process doable within a week, instantly invalidating all that hard work you put in. It's like buying a TV and then seeing it on sale the next day for 10% of the price.

[KaPe]

It's fascinating how you are completely missing the point and don't understand sarcasm

"Sarcasm" (calling it that is being generous) doesn't automatically make your points smarter or more correct. Especially ones that were quite heavily overused and always missed the point.

[Softbottom]

The grind really isn't that bad... This is coming from someone who raids casually (Heroic). I do next to no Mythic+. Like literally 1-3 a week; last week I didn't even do one dungeon. I do my WQ cache daily and just clear Normal weekly and I've almost cleared Heroic (just missing 3 boss kills now). My weapon is at 45 traits and I have had no issues what so ever doing anything outside of Mythic raids. I am sitting at 891 ilvl Equipped.

If i wanted to to raid mythic I would definitely try to max out my weapon but looking at where I am at already at 45 traits it's not far at all from maxing it. Even running a small amount of Mythic+ dungeons I would probably max my weapon out in a short period of time. Even if I continue at the rate of what I'm doing I will be maxed at 54 before the next raid comes out. This is with putting in NO EFFORT; just playing as I normally do.

Everyone should know by now that mythic raiding entry this expansion is slightly different because of the artifact. But hell I'm playing literally 6-8 hours a week right now and almost maxed out a spec. If you are dedicated at all to mythic raiding there is no reason why you shouldn't have 54 traits if you are serious and realistically you can still kill bosses on mythic without being 54 as IceMan1763 posted above.

[Deleted]

really great for multiple chars, ty blizz

[IceMan1763]

Everyone should know by now that mythic raiding entry this expansion is slightly different because of the artifact. But hell I'm playing literally 6-8 hours a week right now and almost maxed out a spec. If you are dedicated at all to mythic raiding there is no reason why you shouldn't have 54 traits if you are serious and realistically you can still kill bosses on mythic without being 54 as IceMan1763 posted above.

Mythic raiding isn't slightly different... it's VERY different. Outside of raid time requirements like this have literally never been in place before.

You're also entirely missing my point. The first 3 Mythic bosses in NH are basically a gift by Blizzard to Heroic guilds that are struggling because they are so undertuned compared to the next 7. Once you hit the final 3, 54 Traits are an absolute requirement. Someone was trying to pretend you could raid on a light schedule and be able to just log a few extra hours here and there and be somewhat competitive. I proved that the best 3 day a week raiding guild is extremely likely to be putting in considerable hours outside of their raids, since virtually all of them have 54 Traits. How you converted the fact that they all have 54 to "you can still kill bosses on mythic without being 54" is beyond me.

[Softbottom]

Mythic raiding isn't slightly different... it's VERY different. Outside of raid time requirements like this have literally never been in place before.

You're also entirely missing my point. The first 3 Mythic bosses in NH are basically a gift by Blizzard to Heroic guilds that are struggling because they are so undertuned compared to the next 7. Once you hit the final 3, 54 Traits are an absolute requirement. Someone was trying to pretend you could raid on a light schedule and be able to just log a few extra hours here and there and be somewhat competitive. I proved that the best 3 day a week raiding guild is extremely likely to be putting in considerable hours outside of their raids, since virtually all of them have 54 Traits. How you converted the fact that they all have 54 to "you can still kill bosses on mythic without being 54" is beyond me.

I read your post completely wrong. I thought it said no one except for 1 person had over 54 traits; my bad

[IceMan1763]

I read your post completely wrong. I thought it said no one except for 1 person had over 54 traits; my bad

It happens!

[Softbottom]

It happens!

Front page just popped. Interesting read update:

Artifact Power has been a hot topic lately, both around the community and within the development team. With Patch 7.2 on the horizon, introducing both new artifact traits and additional Knowledge levels, we have been reflecting on the way the system has unfolded during the first months of Legion, and evaluating changes based on the lessons we have learned thus far.

First off, a look back at where we started.

From the outset, Artifact Power was intended to serve two intertwined purposes: First, it offered max-level progression that was not entirely item-driven, along with choices and elements of character customization as players traversed their trait trees; second, it was meant to serve as a universally desired, consistent reward from all types of content.

In crafting the systems that delivered Artifact Power, we weighed the merits of hard caps versus a smoother system of diminishing returns. We had extensive experience with hard caps, through multiple past iterations of currencies like Valor Points and Conquest Points, and wanted to avoid several of the downsides of that approach. For example, a cap inherently feels like more of an expected quota, where missing a week or falling short of the cap puts you clearly, and potentially permanently, behind the curve.

Instead, as everyone knows, we settled on an open-ended system of diminishing returns. Without any hard caps on how quickly players could earn AP, it was essential to have some sort of limiting mechanism on the gap in power between players of different playstyles, and different levels of time investment. We accepted the admittedly complex design of Artifact Knowledge because it solved this problem, effectively reining in the size of this power gap. Players trying to progress past the expected artifact level for their Knowledge would run into those rapidly diminishing returns, while those who played less than that would have Knowledge as an accelerator to help them catch up to the cutting edge. When Emerald Nightmare was new content, while the average raider was at 20 or 21 points, the most dedicated might have been at 24 or 25 – a relatively modest gap.

Now, where things went wrong…

We feel that we made two major missteps with the Artifact Power system that increasingly manifested themselves as we got deeper into Patch 7.1 and 7.1.5. And both of them served to undermine that core goal of ensuring that the gap between players with different levels of time invested into the system could not grow too large.

First, the cost of ranks in the 20-point final trait remained relatively flat, as opposed to the rapid exponential scaling up to that point. This meant that someone who spent twice as much time gathering AP as I did would have roughly twice as many ranks as me. Instead of the 24 vs. 21 gaps we saw in Nightmare, a number of hardcore raiders entered Nighthold with 54 points, while others were just beginning that final progression and found themselves with nearly 10% less health and damage, equivalent to being almost a full tier of gear behind. Players who switched specs or characters along the way found themselves in a similar position. The power gap was larger than ever before, which created a sense of obligation and a number of negative social pressures that the system had previously tried to minimize. In short: We’re not at all happy with how this worked out.

A common suggestion is to simply reduce the amount of Artifact Power required to fully unlock the artifact in 7.2. This would not solve the underlying problem, but would rather reduce its duration while heightening its intensity, as competitive players sprinted to finish their Artifacts in order to be “ready.” But then we would inevitably tune around that completed power level, and other players would simply be playing catch-up the entire time. And in the long run, Artifact Power would not be serving its intended purpose of ongoing parallel progression. A capped-artifact player who goes a week without getting any item upgrades ends the week literally no stronger than before. Part of the value of the artifact, both for personal progression and guild progression, lies in ensuring that everyone is at least a bit stronger next week than they are right now, and a bit closer to overcoming whatever obstacle stands in their path. Our goal is for Artifact Power to always be of some interest as a reward, whether from a World Quest, or as a consolation prize when failing a bonus roll.

Instead, we are focusing on fixing the mistake of flat cost scaling at the end of the progression, and instead keeping the increases exponential throughout, while also strengthening Artifact Knowledge as a core pacing and catch-up mechanism. These changes should be visible in an upcoming PTR build.

This is done with the primary goal of reducing the power gap based on time investment, while preserving Artifact Power as an endgame reward that everyone values. If the leaders in Artifact Power were only a few points ahead of a more typical player, rather than crossing the finish line when most were just leaving the starting blocks, players with less time to commit would not be as disadvantaged in competitive activities. If a Warlock were choosing between having 48 points in a single spec or 44 points in all three specs if they’d split their efforts evenly, the barrier to playing multiple specs would be significantly reduced. We are still tuning the curve for 7.2 trait costs, but we’re currently targeting scaling such that someone who earns twice as much AP as me will have an artifact that’s only ~1.5% stronger; someone who earns four times as much AP as me should only be 3% stronger. On the whole, this should be a massive reduction in the power gaps we see in the live game today.

The second problem with our initial implementation was that repeatable sources of Artifact Power (Mythic Keystone dungeons in particular) dominated time-limited sources such as Emissary caches and raid bosses. The fact that a large portion of the community evaluates their Artifact Power needs using “Maw runs” as the unit of measurement is ample evidence of this failure. We very recently deployed a hotfix to increase AP earned from Nighthold in order to make raiding, with a weekly-lockout, better compare in efficiency to repeated Mythic Keystone runs. And in 7.2, we’re more thoroughly addressing this issue by adding a significant amount of AP to the weekly Mythic Keystone cache, while somewhat reducing (and normalizing based on instance length) the AP awarded by repeated runs. These changes are being made to narrow the gap in AP earning, and thus power, based on time investment.

All of the above changes are aimed at allowing players the freedom and flexibility to decide how they want to spend their time, and which goals they wish to pursue, while limiting the difference in power between players who arrive at different answers to those questions.