‘Our land’: Russia tells US that Crimea won’t be ‘given back’ to Ukraine

[Shalcker]

No, it is not fine to be hypocritical, it still makes you a hypocrite.

If it makes world better place, why not?

Seems to work fine as far as West claims, again.

[Machismo]

Selectively fighting hypocrisy is ...hypocrisy.

Why be selective, why not fight against all hypocrisy?

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If it makes world better place, why not?

Seems to work fine as far as West claims, again.

Taking away the freedoms of innocent people, murdering innocent people... no those do not make the world a better place.

[Shalcker]

Why would any separatist movement have to be crushed?

Because there are no significant separatists movements currently and general support for separatism, both political and from population, is non-existent.

As counter-example, there was significant separatist movement in 90s with political (but not popular) support that resulted in dissolution of Soviet Union (though many of those "separated" didn't actually want to separate, but were forced to by "big 3" of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus). It even had "shockwaves" beyond that too, we had our Urals Republic for something like two weeks before they made alternative arrangement...

Russia could have protected an independent Crimea against Ukraine.

Much easier as part of Russia.

Instead, Russia pushed for a referendum to incorporate this region, which was rid off non-Russians after WW2.
Not exactly the will of the Crimeans there.

Exactly will of Crimeans there, not some fairy-tale "displaced" Crimeans who currently reside who knows where.

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Taking away the freedoms of innocent people, murdering innocent people... no those do not make the world a better place.

Listening to opinion of people via referendum and then acting on it certainly seems like worthy cause.

No innocent people were harmed in Crimea either.

[Machismo]

Because there are no significant separatists movements currently and general support for separatism, both political and from population, is non-existent.

As counter-example, there was significant separatist movement in 90s with political support that resulted in dissolution of Soviet Union (though many of those "separated" didn't actually want to separate, but were forced to by "big 3" of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus).

Much easier as part of Russia.

Exactly will of Crimeans there, not some fairy-tale "displaced" Crimeans who currently reside who knows where.

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Listening to opinion of people via referendum and then acting on it certainly seems like worthy cause.

No innocent people were harmed in Crimea either.

So, you think that anyone who votes to secede from Russia should be allowed to leave peacefully, got it.

Russia certainly wasn't listening to the people in Crimea who didn't want to join Russia. Apparently, those people didn't actually matter. Thanks for arguing my point for me.

[Deleted]

So, you think that anyone who votes to secede from Russia should be allowed to leave peacefully, got it.

Russia certainly wasn't listening to the people in Crimea who didn't want to join Russia. Apparently, those people didn't actually matter. Thanks for arguing my point for me.

You must be trolling. People who didn't want to join Russia are tiny minority. Majority decides, not minority. That's what referendum is about - to let majority decide.

[Machismo]

You must be trolling. People who didn't want to join Russia are tiny minority. Majority decides, not minority. That's what referendum is about - to let majority decide.

Then any group of people who wants to leave Russia should be free to do so, right?

[Deleted]

Then any group of people who wants to leave Russia should be free to do so, right?

If its a majority, they have historical reason not to be in Russia, then sure. But that's a strawman argument because there is no such group.

[Shalcker]

So, you think that anyone who votes to secede from Russia should be allowed to leave peacefully, got it.

I see you still have problem with reading comprehension.

They will be allowed to leave peacefully if there will be significant political support for their separation, and not a moment sooner.

If it's just popular support then the only route for separation is violent one.

If there is neither then there is no separation and thus no problem.

Russia certainly wasn't listening to the people in Crimea who didn't want to join Russia. Apparently, those people didn't actually matter. Thanks for arguing my point for me.

Why don't you listen to Russian opinions? Apparently Russian opinions do not actually matter!

Thanks for arguing my point for me.

[Machismo]

If its a majority, they have historical reason not to be in Russia, then sure. But that's a strawman argument because there is no such group.

I'm sure there has been at least one group of people, anywhere in Russia, who did not wish to be under the thumb of the Russian government...

Are you fucking kidding me?

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I see you still have problem with reading comprehension.

They will be allowed to leave peacefully if there will be significant political support for their separation, and not a moment sooner.

If it's just popular support then the only route for separation is violent one.

If there is neither then there is no separation and thus no problem.

Why don't you listen to Russian opinions? Apparently Russian opinions do not actually matter!

Thanks for arguing my point for me.

You have admitted to supporting hypocrisy, I love it.

[Deleted]

I'm sure there has been at least one group of people, anywhere in Russia, who did not wish to be under the thumb of the Russian government...

Examples please, not hypothetical scenario. Also check historical facts before saying "Chechnya".

[Shalcker]

You have admitted to supporting hypocrisy, I love it.

You seem to be blind to your own hypocrisy, i just accept it as part of being human.

[Deleted]

You seem to be blind to your own hypocrisy, i just accept it as part of being human.

At this point I think he's just trolling. Nobody is that stupid.

Infracted

[caervek]

Russia could have protected an independent Crimea against Ukraine.

Crimea could have chosen independance over rejoining Russia if it wanted.

Instead, Russia pushed for a referendum to incorporate this region, which was rid off non-Russians after WW2.

Crimea's population is 58% ethnic Russia, 24% ethnic Ukrainian, 12% ethnic Tatar and 6% other.

[Crispin]

They were always russians.

well what the fuck were they doing in Ukraine then?

[Natylyaz]

If its a majority, they have historical reason not to be in Russia, then sure. But that's a strawman argument because there is no such group.

Why do people need a historical reason to ask for independence?
You pointed out before that historical populations or borders do not matter, only current population.

[Machismo]

You seem to be blind to your own hypocrisy, i just accept it as part of being human.

Please, feel free to point out my hypocrisy.

[Shalcker]

Crimea's population is 58% ethnic Russia, 24% ethnic Ukrainian, 12% ethnic Tatar and 6% other.

There were significant programs to return displaced Tatars back there after fall of USSR too.

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Please, feel free to point out my hypocrisy.

You say Russians should value opinions of minorities in Crimea, yet you ignore opinions of Russians - whom you seem to consider minority on world stage.

[Crispin]

Examples please, not hypothetical scenario. Also check historical facts before saying "Chechnya".

A Chinese majority in east Russia would be fine to put forward a referendum to join China?

[caervek]

well what the fuck were they doing in Ukraine then?

They were in Crimea (part of Russia that ended up belonging to Ukraine in the 1990's) for most of them it was their home and they had no desire to leave after Ukraine took over.

[Deleted]

Why do people need a historical reason to ask for independence?
You pointed out before than historical populations or borders do not matter, only current population.

To show that land didn't belong to current owners. If you come to someone else's land and demand independence from those who lived there, it should be treated as invasion. Which does not apply to Crimea because tatars used to live there. But bad shit happened to tatars during USSR times, which is not fault of people currently living in Crimea.