‘Our land’: Russia tells US that Crimea won’t be ‘given back’ to Ukraine

[Crispin]

The Soviet Union allowed Ukraine to break away, and many other SSRs in the early 90's.



No Ukraine just sent in the military, took over control of Crimea, deposed the president/government and dissolved the constitution.

I see you keep bringing up the 90's, altho I gotta admit that I don't see it as an argument that makes Russia stealing Crimea valid, perhaps you should bring up some polls instead.

[caervek]

Which country was the one forcing the USSR to stay together? Was Moldova holding all the cards and nuclear weapons? Was Estonia threatening to destroy any country that left?

No country was, after the USSR dissolved Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world due to the amount they held.

[Crispin]

Yes it was, in the same way the USA and the UAE are.

Yet every country had it's own goverment. SU was not a country.

[Deleted]

The result isnt the issue, how fucking difficult is it to understand that Crimea may very well have become Russian with the world community accepting it, but we dont know do we? because you decided to invade with a "no not our guys" and hold a referendum while holding the OSCE out by force.

It wouldn't have worked. NATO started all that mess by sponsoring coup, accepting illegal government without hours after coup. What NATO countries did goes against principles of democracy, so what makes you think that they would have supported Crimea's independence?

[caervek]

You are right, Crimea is a real scenario where Russia annexed land from another nation. Many of the people in that land did not wish to be a part of Russia.

Are you in the same thread as the rest of us?

People are complaining about the way the referendum came about, nobody is questioning the validity of the results lol.

[Deleted]

So you support the Kosovo independence?

Yep. I don't see problem with that, except for whole war thing.

[Crispin]

It wouldn't have worked. NATO started all that mess by sponsoring coup, accepting illegal government without hours after coup. What NATO countries did goes against principles of democracy, so what makes you think that they would have supported Crimea's independence?

NATO? lol give me a fucking break, I thought it was the neo-nazis, or perhaps the illumnati.

[Dentelan]

Are you saying that every single person in Crimea wanted to be a part of Russia? If not, then there were Crimeans who did not. Their opinions and freedoms were ignored.

In every referendum, part that loosed is ignored. 90%+ want to join Russia, 5-10 dont. Soo. How you will act not to ignore these few guys opinion? Not joining Russia, and ignore 90% of people? Great solution.

[Crispin]

Are you in the same thread as the rest of us?

People are complaining about the way the referendum came about, nobody is questioning the validity of the results lol.

Connected. Which is the issue.

[Eviscero]

In the midst of this distributing and ongoing investigation into Trump's ties with Russia, this pathetic, limp-wrist announcement of Trump's expectations doesn't surprise me. It also won't surprise me when this is the extent of his "being tough on Russia."

Trump: "My press secretary relayed that I expect Putin to give back Crimea, *wink wink*, and he said no. I mean I don't know what more you want me to do! *gobble gobble*"

And yes, that *gobble* is both Trump being a chicken shit, and him slurping down Putin's tiny cock.

[caervek]

I see you keep bringing up the 90's

Because that's where the issue[s] we are discussing stem from.

The very first thing the government of Ukraine should have done after gaining independence in 1991 is return Crimea to Russia. They knew that it was culturally, ethnically and historically Russian, they knew that Crimea would never be happy as part of Ukraine and they should have known that it would one day blow up in their face.

[Crispin]

It's as if Russians cant see the connection between having an honest and legit referendum which gives you a valid result, illegal refrendums, polls and 23 year old referendums arent an indication of anything, how many people showed up to vote? 15%?

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Because that's where the issue[s] we are discussing stem from.

The very first thing the government of Ukraine should have done after gaining independence in 1991 is return Crimea to Russia. They knew that it was culturally, ethnically and historically Russian, they knew that Crimea would never be happy as part of Ukraine and they should have known that it would one day blow up in their face.

How much was done between 95' and 2012 to get Crimean independence? lots of riots and work for referendums I take it?

[caervek]

Yet every country had it's own goverment. SU was not a country.

*ahem*

The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Russian: Правительство СССР, Pravíteljstvo SSSR) was the main body of the executive branch of government in the Soviet Union. It was led by the head of the government, in the West referred to as the Premier of the Soviet Union.

By comparison the UK also has a government despite being a union.

[Machismo]

No country was, after the USSR dissolved Ukraine became the third largest nuclear power in the world due to the amount they held.

No, Russia was most certainly threatening the other countries against leaving the USSR. They got so mad, they decided to fight a few wars over it.

[caervek]

Connected. Which is the issue.

No they are not, the results are perfectly in line with all the referendums/polls/etc conducted in the past half century.

Having armed guards outside a polling station has no effect on what the people inside the polling station do. As mentioned before Russian soldiers cannot see through walls or read minds >.>

[Machismo]

Are you in the same thread as the rest of us?

People are complaining about the way the referendum came about, nobody is questioning the validity of the results lol.

I am questioning the validity of the entire process.

Many people in Crimea did not want to be a part of Russia. More happened to want to join Russia. That doesn't mean there weren't a lot of people who didn't want to join.

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In every referendum, part that loosed is ignored. 90%+ want to join Russia, 5-10 dont. Soo. How you will act not to ignore these few guys opinion? Not joining Russia, and ignore 90% of people? Great solution.

Like I said, if someone in Russia wants to secede from Russia, then they should be allowed to do so. Freedom is awesome.

[caervek]

How much was done between 95' and 2012 to get Crimean independence? lots of riots and work for referendums I take it?

Yes (sorry if that was rhetorical, it didn't look like it).

[Flarelaine]

Except he didn't have the authority to do it, hence why Crimea demanded a referendum so they could block it. As the whole thing was just a PR stunt though the complaining voices were eventually silenced (read into that what you will, it was the USSR after all).

What do you mean "he"? The Supreme Soviet was a council with every right to reassign territories (which both Russia and Ukraine consented to at any rate).

[Deleted]

There is zero reason to 'give it back' since the people of Crimea voted to join Russia.

You know nothing how it was behind curtain.

[Aggrophobic]

In every referendum, part that loosed is ignored. 90%+ want to join Russia, 5-10 dont. Soo. How you will act not to ignore these few guys opinion? Not joining Russia, and ignore 90% of people? Great solution.

Again though. Voting in the middle of a war zone, in an area where only pro-russians are welcome and votes counted and regulated by pro-russian separatists.
You can't possably draw any reliable conclusions from that.

Even if you do think Russia can do no wrong you have to see the problem here, do you not? I mean, really?