Ghostcrawler on unsubbing

[Morssoe]

This is something most people don't take under consideration when discussing subs. I also agree that lack of new players is the biggest issue. But I doubt there is really a solution. I am afraid that the market simply isn't interested in mmos anymore.

mobas and fps games are popular now.

[Halicia]

I am afraid that the market simply isn't interested in mmos anymore.

I think that's the case too. The internet is so pervasive now that noone feels the need to "connect" with strangers, when they can google people who agree with them whenever they feel like.

At least, thats what got me into MMOs.... "guilds", meeting new people, learning about new places. Sharing stories about where you've been, what you've seen. Heck, some of the guilds I even practiced/learned new languages. Kinda the best parts of the internet.

But the internet's fallen more to "fast food" socialization. And games reflect that. Lobby-MMO's.... where knowing someone is the exception, not the norm. I'm not even dissing WoW here, but more in regards to genres like MOBAs or shooters where you queue up with or without people, and hop into a game. Fun game, "Massively Multiplayer" but absolutely no connection to anyone.

[blitz156]

IMO un-subbing because of "not having enough time" is misunderstood by them.

I strongly believe that if you still enjoyed and loved something, you would make time.

There are underlying reasons, and I think they thought they could answer the not enough time problem by making the game more casual and fast. (teleporting everywhere, removing the need for CC and having ~15min dungeon AoE runs etc.)
Some of the time eating problems were genuine, but I think it wouldn't be the core for un-subbing like it seems they're lead to believe.

[Relapses]

IMO un-subbing because of "not having enough time" is misunderstood by them.

I strongly believe that if you still enjoyed and loved something, you would make time.

There are underlying reasons, and I think they thought they could answer the not enough time problem by making the game more casual and fast. (teleporting everywhere, removing the need for CC and having ~15min dungeon AoE runs etc.)
Some of the time eating problems were genuine, but I think it wouldn't be the core for un-subbing like it seems they're lead to believe.

Yep, because making people wait an hour to do a fucking instance "cuz muh immersion bruh" is a far more prudent business plan than actually listening to the negative feedback players gave about such things.

[blitz156]

Yep, because making people wait an hour to do a fucking instance "cuz muh immersion bruh" is a far more prudent business plan than actually listening to the negative feedback players gave about such things.

Ya, that would be one of the genuine time eating problems.

[Hctaz]

Sorry?

I think Ghostcrawler's post has a ton of room for debate. He brings up lots of points and a lot of them are widely open to debate, particularly because he's dealing in the grey areas that players typically don't (players typically deal in extremes).

Perhaps that's why you think there's no ground for debate - you're on the typical hunt for hysterics, don't necessarily recognise a nuanced argument, and think there's nothing to discuss.

The point is that OP didn't post anything other than copypasta. It's pretty required to like... actually start the discussion on a discussion post. You can't just post a thing and say nothing and expect people to jump in to make the first claims.

[WowIsDead64]

IMO un-subbing because of "not having enough time" is misunderstood by them.

I strongly believe that if you still enjoyed and loved something, you would make time.

There are underlying reasons, and I think they thought they could answer the not enough time problem by making the game more casual and fast. (teleporting everywhere, removing the need for CC and having ~15min dungeon AoE runs etc.)
Some of the time eating problems were genuine, but I think it wouldn't be the core for un-subbing like it seems they're lead to believe.

Yeah, I've thought about it too. "Not enough time" can possibly mean "I play something else, I like more". But usually, yeah - it means, that player no longer have solid X free hours of play time to do more serious stuff. And sometimes not because he physically don't have this free time - but because he don't want to sit in front of his computer for so long. For example, why LFR overtuning is bad? Because sitting for 3 hours on one boss - isn't worth it. Also many of you say, that Wow is very casual and not grindy in comparison with other games. Well, it's just illusion. Game doesn't ask you to "kill 1000 mobs" - it has small incremental tasks, but, you know, minutes incorporate into hours. You log in, you have to do X, then to do Y, then to do Z. Each takes may be 5 minutes. But then BAM - hour has passed and you still haven't done your mandatory stuff. And yeah, I guess it's connected to age. When you're kid - you can immerse yourself into game so deeply, that you won't feel any fatigue and won't notice, how time goes by. But with age sitting in front of computer for more, than a hour - becomes problematic.

[Pua]

The point is that OP didn't post anything other than copypasta. It's pretty required to like... actually start the discussion on a discussion post. You can't just post a thing and say nothing and expect people to jump in to make the first claims.

I've no idea why not.

[Deleted]

Developers do care if you stop playing their game and they want to know why. However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” (I’m basing that on having seen a lot of data - it’s not super open to debate.)

Which just means people cant commit as much as the devs want them to, as older the game gets.

Which means a developing game has to adress players that want to commit less and less.

[Prime92]

"Dropping a game because of a specific design change (despite what you might read on forums / Reddit) is actually pretty rare."
How about dropping a game because of a cascade of plain retarded changes? I unsubbed 2 weeks ago strictly because of changes hitting me over and over again since 7.0 deployment and culminating in 7.1.5. I've been fed up with activiblizzards decisions for months, mostly the core design of this expansion is stupid - all around rng grinding thing but also with changes to my main - arms warrior. Rerolling to another spec or character is basically impossible due to legendary system + the fact that you can't target farm items, instead you need to run stupidly high M+ and hope that a) an item drops from the specific boss b) it's the item you actually need c) it's you who gets it d) it titanforges to be useful at all. Unless you've got a party of 5 people geared enough, skilled enough, having enough time and will to do the crap over and over again, you're stuck with the one spec you've chosen months ago (does not apply to LFR heroes, obviously).

[HuxNeva]

I did quit in WoD due to Garrisonville. It was the first time I unsubbed since I started playing WoW in WotLK. I came back in Legion only when I was sure Order hall missions would not be Garrisonville reborn.

[BenBos]

So much navel staring here ...

I unsubbed several times because I found other things that simply were more relevant than playing WoW...

Like ... real life ... boardgames ... football ....

Also I think the biggest problem is that WoW belongs to a games category that went from HIGHLY popular "alternative second life" long term pleasure to a DYSFUNCTIONAL gaming system in which iOS games took a new way of playing casual games...

Hence the early successes of games that can be over in 10 minutes without the need to sit behind a full blown computer for 6 hours long at 20 consecutive days...

The above right there is why most people unsub in the long run.

---------
I must say over the last 3 years I had so much fun with certain heavier boardgames than with ANY Blizzard game really. From Descent2 WITH App support and so in solo mode doing dungeon crawling to Mansions of Madness2 which is a cross between adventure gaming and solving puzzles in a scary Mansion (also supported with an App btw), to FULL blown board solo games like Labyrinth the War on Terror or The DDay Landings at Omaha Beach.

ALL these boardgames have incredible THEMATIC story telling and quite frankly I can play these solo at any time at my own pace without the need to sit behind a desk for 3 hours+...

What WoW STILL has though is a very CHEAP system. No hobby was so economic as WoW was and is, so I hop in now and then to just have 50 minutes of fun, mostly doing 2 BG's and a couple of quests a few times a week.

But it feels strange, it is no longer the hardcore 6 hours a day gaming I seek in my precious life these days ....

[WowIsDead64]

Sad thing. Both in WOD and even in Legion Blizzard actually did, what I had asked them to do. I had been asking for universal reward, that would grant slow but steady progression + feature that would be more like Vanilla's talent trees, for a long time before Legion. Why it's sad thing? Because every time, they do something right, they also do something completely wrong, and I as the result - I don't play this "perfect" xpacks.

[SirCowdog]

Every expansion that is made for World of WarCraft is in process of development for months/years before it gets released. Do you really think that they make the game that much upfront because only goal in their mind is profit, profit and only profit? World of WarCraft is product with goal to fulfill a need and that need is called entertainment and as such, you make the game with goal to be fun. You surely can't claim game is not fun because they did not provide to you what you want from them to provide to you while game is still played by milions.

No one sane would look on profits on day by day basis. You will get total inaccurate results. I know that is what you wish you would want to happen so it would probably make you right in everything you say (not you specifically but your type of player) but fortunately, there are people who know how to "look" at their things in right way.

Oh and one more thing...

WoW shop items are not mandatory, every player can live without them. You only have to be aware how ridiculous sounds the following "WHAT?!!? NO FLYING!?!?! I'M CANCELING MY SUB - NAO!!!" and not because you would not prove a point but because you would actually prove that the game was not meant for you in the first place.

I was speaking more of the trend on how profits raise or lower on a day to day basis. And yes, I think it's absolutely something that ANY business that operates on the size and scale that Blizzard will do.

And if you think the only reasons behind how a game is designed is fun, then I'm afraid you just aren't being objective. Certainly "fun" is one of the ways to keep players interested and paying, but adding filler to a game which makes money from a monthly subscription is another. There is a balance to be struck there, which is why I'm so vocal about simply rolling over and accepting anything Blizzard does without question.

As for the game not being meant for me in the first place: I've been playing since vanilla. For the past 8 or so years the game absolutely was "meant for me". It wasn't until Blizzard decided to take away flying in WoD in the face of massive feedback against it(roughly half the players AND half the devs, according to Blizzard themselves) that the game stopped being for me.

And there's a difference between throwing a tantrum like you describe, and reasonably stating your disapproval of no-flying, with logical explanations, followed by a cancellation to emphasis the point. Maybe a few people react like you describe, but most people I've talked to have simply said some form of: "I don't like the game without flying so I'm unsubbed until it's back."

If "WHAT?!!? NO FLYING!?!?! I'M CANCELING MY SUB - NAO!!!" sounds ridiculous it's because it is. Nobody talks like that. It's an exaggeration in order to make a point sound like it has more credibility than it actually does.

[travistt]

Ghost Crawler makes some salient points. The truth is that the only effective way for most players to influence game developers is by posting constructive and detailed critique on a relevant forum

[Vash The Stampede]

Whenever I quit WoW, it's mostly changes done to classes. My first time quitting was in Vanilla over how terrible Ret paladins were. My second time quitting was in WOTLK over how terrible Ret Paladins were. My third time was a lot of things. By the time MoP was nearly over, I was logging in only to raid. Ret Paladins still sucked but, that's now the least of my concerns over WoW. The game wasn't as rewarding, and LFR for me felt like I was wasting my time in Heroic raids. Got burnt from doing dungeons daily's, cause I have to for valor or whatever. Didn't want to pay for server transfers, cause I've already done so twice. Hated doing dailies.

The only thing that kept me in the game throughout MoP was the guild, and they pissed me off one day and that's the excuse I needed to quit. Since then I came back late WoD just to see how bad things were, and I only played for 3 months, most of my time was spent in the Garrison playing the free subscription game. Free if you don't value your time.

[draykorinee]

I normally quite because I just get drained. I haven't gone back this time and I feel no desire to do so. The game is dead to me. Its still a solid game but I have other things to do now.