Artifact Power and Patch 7.2

[Requimortem]

I would say there's a large proportion of casual players who are simply happy with anything that makes raiders upset, because they believe that fun in WoW is a zero sum balance and buy into the fiction of WoD having "catered to" raiders on hand and foot rather than simply raiders managing to not get screwed quite as hard as everyone else. Ergo if it makes raiders mad, it must be good for everyone else, right? Right?

I sincerely doubt that's the case since Warlords of Draenor was fairly casual friendly. Virtually everything could be done through your garrison and I don't remember anything other than Archimonde being close to "challenging"--the same can't be said for Legion.

[reid8470]

A cap will always be black or white, you meet it or you don't.

They have a stacking on daily world quest chests of 3 days--I don't see why the same couldn't be done for weekly content-gated tokens. Maximum loot of 2 per week, with it increasing to 3 or 4 in the next week if you only looted 1 or none the previous week. The benefit of a cap is players are rewarded for playing a patch, rather than making them feel obligated to grind out in preparation of a patch. Look at ICC where Paragon killed Lich King HM prior to anyone having Shadowmourne; top players aren't pushed into hard grinding and the more casual players have a stable, time-convenient stacking buff that slowly assists them with clearing content.

1) Penalises any player that isn't a demon hunter with only two specs, unless you duplicate the result at which point it is unfair to anyone who isn't a druid.

Then have it be 100% into current spec and 50% into both inactive specs and specs on your other characters. Anything.

2) Simply another cap with the expectation that you meet it.

Hardly asking players to meet much by winning some BGs, arenas, running a M+, running some mythics, etc. If you have 5-7 options to obtain and token and only need 2 per week, it's very reasonable. A cap that people are expected to meet is only a problem if it's tedious to obtain, but someone who runs BGs and arenas is going to get them from playing. Someone who raids is going to get them from running M+ and killing raid content. Someone who plays casually doesn't even need them, but could obtain them from regular mythics, pet battles, anything.

3) Though it offering some improvement with the variety of sources for each.

It's a night and day difference. If people get tokens from simply playing what they normally play, I don't see how it's a problem.

[Granyala]

but hey, bashing on LFR is the in thing so whatever makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

I love to bash LFR, but not because it gives epics to people.
I bash it, because it's an absolutely horrible experience (I only realized that once I stopped raiding and "relied" on LFR to see the raids).
You get plopped into it on some random boss. Hit some loot pinata for 5 minutes and then *poof* you are back in Dalaran.

How the F*** is that "story presentation" ?!

If you want to see story presentation of an LFR like raid, take a peek at FF-XIVs 24man raids.

On top of that, LFR makes you feel how crappy your character actually is. I am an ex mythic raider, so I know how to play my class. Seeing people pulling double of what I can do is disheartening. Why would I even TRY to play well, if no matter what I do, I will be so far behind that it won't matter anyway?
This does not breed the wish to be better. It only breeds "yah I can go afk / watch a movie. They will kill the boss for me".

[Ivyrise]

I love to bash LFR, but not because it gives epics to people.
I bash it, because it's an absolutely horrible experience (I only realized that once I stopped raiding and "relied" on LFR to see the raids).
You get plopped into it on some random boss. Hit some loot pinata for 5 minutes and then *poof* you are back in Dalaran.

How the F*** is that "story presentation" ?!

If you want to see story presentation of an LFR like raid, take a peek at FF-XIVs 24man raids.

On top of that, LFR makes you feel how crappy your character actually is. I am an ex mythic raider, so I know how to play my class. Seeing people pulling double of what I can do is disheartening. Why would I even TRY to play well, if no matter what I do, I will be so far behind that it won't matter anyway?
This does not breed the wish to be better. It only breeds "yah I can go afk / watch a movie. They will kill the boss for me".

Ex-mythic raider doing 1/2 damage of LFR casuals? You must have went in underpowered and undergeared. Not sure why you would be disheartened with people pulling twice your DPS when you know you're severely undergeared. Also unclear to me why an ex mythic raider like you would take LFR meters seriously.

[Whitedragon]

Not to mention you cap day one and don't even log in besides raid like.... oh yea... like wod...

I pay monthly for this game, I like things to do on a daily basis.

To be fair i never noticed that happening mostly because it went in 3 major groups giving people a few choices.

First you had the Reset day group who did everything on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Second you had the Weekend warriors who tended to do things on Friday or Saturday.
Then you had the last minute group who where a conglomerate. that hit things up late Sunday or Monday.

I have rolled with each of these groups in the past and even when I let things ride until the last minute, there where always people there for you.

[Deleted]

...What?

I know overwhelming ignorance is par for the course in this community but I find it astonishing that you could be that oblivious. This expansion is in no way directed at casuals. You have your seemingly endless grind for Artifact Power, random chances at getting a Legendary which may or may not be utterly useless, you're forced to raid to progress your professions and even the appearances/alternate colors of your artifact weapons require a stupid amount of work. World of Warcraft has never been more unfriendly to casual players.

1) you're forced to raid to progress your professions - i admit i quit a couple months ago, did they add profession recipes in NH? when i was playing most you had to do was normal dungeons for base recipes, mythic dungeons for higher rank recipes

as far as the rest of your post - that depends on whether you care about the rewards that are gated behind raiding or just want to have fun... i've got a couple casual friends who really like this expansion cause whenever they log in they can do a mythic / m+ dungeon which progresses their character someohow and have a chance to give them good (for their level) loot

for me, at a point when i decided that i just dont have the time for farm 'required' for raiding i told my GM im quitting and havent logged into wow since

[Deleted]

Artifacts and AP where the recycled attempt to implement the old Path of the Titans approach.

Short idea:

Once fully unlocked, new artifact power for a specific item is only obtainable via Raid (LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic) and boss drop. LFR gives less AP than Mythic, but all in all it's more or less capped.... and somehow similar to the old valor points....

this whole system is flawed...

[Deleted]

Tl;DR:

Putting effort in this game is not worth it.

"someone who earns four times as much AP as me should only be 3% stronger." ikekd.

I remember the days nobody complained about somebody who put in the tremendous effort to run MoltenCore 40 to get full blue or at least single purp was waaaay better than than one who didnt.

[rowaasr13]

does every single AP WQ That pops
I don't understand ... AP burnout

10/10. Would read again.

[Deleted]

Problem is a hard cap will be most people getting everything done on reset day, then those who are busy for whatever reason that week and can only come on for the weekend/Monday (or Tuesday in Europe) will be out of luck. Weekly capped currency has shown this time and again where people just can not be fucked to help out others if there is nothing in return for them.

So essentially someone comes in and goes "Hey guys, I got a mythic + stone for x." will be basically met by crickets if it isn't first couple days after reset. That's a worse game design than we have now.

It's a bit like people on welfare suggesting higher taxes. It's nice for the people on welfare, but the people giving the help, or to continue in the example, pay the taxes, are screwed over. I am in no doubt sure that if diminishing returns on AP goes through, there'll be a lot of top end guild who'll have to step down after next tier due to too much farming required.

Besides that, there's still the gear you can get from M+ or the legendaries. Suggesting AP is the only reason people do M+ isn't right, the grind for AP lasts a couple of weeks for the people who really grinds it and then it's over.

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pretty much, the AP grind itself honestly isn't terrible. Yes the difference in throughput ended up being massive which should be fixed...The legendary game still to me is the biggest problem of this expansion.

As someone who've got Aggramar's Stride and Sephuz as his best options, I agree completely.

[RuneDK]

It's a bit like people on welfare suggesting higher taxes. It's nice for the people on welfare, but the people giving the help, or to continue in the example, pay the taxes, are screwed over. I am in no doubt sure that if diminishing returns on AP goes through, there'll be a lot of top end guild who'll have to step down after next tier due to too much farming required.

Besides that, there's still the gear you can get from M+ or the legendaries. Suggesting AP is the only reason people do M+ isn't right, the grind for AP lasts a couple of weeks for the people who really grinds it and then it's over.

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As someone who've got Aggramar's Stride and Sephuz as his best options, I agree completely.

Jesus that sucks man =/. I am lucky enough to have one of the higher end shaman ones for both raiding and M+...my other two just suck balls.

[sponge5307]

AK lvl 25 cap is the biggest problem imo and they will fix it in the next patch.

I'm not sure what else they have planned, maybe mythic+ AP nerf? Either way, the problem as they have described it, especially with HP is a huge problem and it's good to know that they are working on it.

Nerfing AP from Mythics would not be a good idea. A lot of the lower gear players rely on being carry or it makes the group a lot easier. If they nerf AP gain form mythics I am pretty sure a lot of more gear players will no running help or run carry groups. I got carry on both my toons and I see no issue with that. You start off needing help from more gear plyers, they ran you thorugh mythics and you get gear now you can help others gear up as you are getting AP back.

Is like why m+ 0 is actually harder than a +2 to +4 becasue it offers little to no reward for gear players to run +0. If AP is nerf from M+ it will just make it harder to new players to get better gear. Not a good game design.

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Great change! Reducing AP from repeated M+ runs is a godsend!

Both sides win on this. The casuals don't have to worry about getting left behind while the hardcores don't have to worry about running 1000 MoS on 4 alts to stay ahead of the curb.

Casual are usually the ones looking for carry so no it will hurt them. Image if there are 50% less carry groups or a well gear tank no longer joining your group since he gets nothing out of it. Yea more people not able to complete m+ = more people complaining. Lot's of ppl stillr un m+ even though they outgear the level due to the AP power.

[Saverem]

Casual are usually the ones looking for carry so no it will hurt them. Image if there are 50% less carry groups or a well gear tank no longer joining your group since he gets nothing out of it. Yea more people not able to complete m+ = more people complaining. Lot's of ppl stillr un m+ even though they outgear the level due to the AP power.

So then the casuals will have to do the M+ that fits their gear/skill level instead of relying on their betters to cheat the system? I still see no problem.

[Fennixx]

I find this funny. When there was caps (such as valor caps), people complained. When there was no reason to leave Garrison, people complained.
And now, we always have something to do... And people complain?

AP, rng legos and WF/TF is the reason the game is so alive atm

[Zenfoldor]

I think MANY of you don't understand how this works. I believe indeed the biggest problem here is that the design is too complicated for a casual observer(or shitslinger) to comprehend.

Let me list off some of the silly arguments against this move, in this very thread:

1. It won't help my alts!! - LOL, really? You do understand that as AK builds(faster until you are caught up, for your alts, plus multiple catchup mechanisms) you, your alts, and your new characters will all end up at the MEAN. Mean means average. That means that your alts won't be nerfed because of this change. Ironically, this change is the exact opposite of what you believe, and in fact is one of the few changes that allow your alts to catchup. On top of that, Legendaries are gonna basically be tokens/nothing next patch(not confirmed, but highly likely) so now your alts will be near 100% of your mains on AP and legendaries in a couple of weeks after dinging, they will also have flying. You see, Artifact Knowledge increases the rate you learn AP, so your alts will be able to do in minutes, what took months before.......your other specs will be in an even better position.
2. The game is catering to the hardcore - Really? Because the other complaint is that it is catering to the casuals. This change does not cater to either group. The hardcore will still be able to grind to get an increase over scrub n00bs, it will just be a smaller gap that can be achieved. Also, the grind will be longer than ever for them if they really want to get good, because new points are balanced around a mean AK. That means OCD "people"(trying not to use a pejorative here) who cannot stand not having the absolute max will have no end to their grind(good, screw them, this game is not designed around your bullshit, because your RL cannot understand that 1% increase is within the margin for error, the game will not make concessions for your raid leader) and n00bs will not be able to whine that they can't keep up and are gimped, because they are too freakin' casual to actually play the game, but too much of a millennial to understand why they don't deserve everything for free.
3. I can't BELIEVE they are reducing maw runs, fuck that - You just don't like change. Check it, AP needs to be slightly valuable, to keep you playing week to week and to give you a reward for running RNG shit with no other reward. However, you shouldn't have to grind maw of souls for AP, ever. It shouldn't be that valuable. AK keeps it valuable for a length of time, then lessens its value. If you wanna run maw, run maw, but you will not get a 10% damage buff from it. Just play the mean unless your required to play more, otherwise you are inefficient. It's ideal.(PS: Your time spent halves its value roughly every 2 weeks)

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. Oh, I could go on, but if you read each opinion, you got people that "hate" this for every conceivable wrong reason you can imagine, and I submit they just don't understand the basic concept of cyclical gating. If anything, Blizzard shouldn't put such complex concepts in a game with a community that can barely understand simcraft.

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i love how they are STILL ignoring the biggest problem with legion , legendaries.

seriously just end the AP grind already, at least for those with 54 for their specs to free them up from their spec (torture chamber) n allow them to invest into the remaining 2 specs they might want to try out.

bring back valor upgrades if there is a need for players to feel slight power upgrade.

blizz is impressive at delivering no results n be completely ineffective , in the end this announcement and their future plan fixed exactly nothing and the problem will continue to persist.

I absolutely love how they improved their communication n presence but if they refuse to fix problems they acknowledged (looking at you, legiondaries), in the end its all fucking pointless.

I don't want to single anyone out, but this is the reply type I'm talking about.

First, there is the assumption that legendaries will not be addressed. It's been made clear they will be, so inaccuracy or incorrect assumption number one(FYI, with the legendary tokens in the PTR, my guess is a timeless isle type system that lets you farm all your legendaries relatively quickly, but we will know more soon).

Second, the legit opinion that the AP system should be moved back to the valor points system with a weekly(or daily) hardcap. That's a fair opinion, nothing wrong with that, but it does fail to address the negatives with that system which were cloudily outlined in the OP(but which do exist and are many, I won't bore you with them, but PM me if you want a list of why that hard cap system isn't ideal in the game today).

Finally, he doesn't say this outright, but I get the feeling that most people believe that this will hurt the ability to play an alt or alt spec. In reality, this change(with its not-linear time based scaling) is really the optimal way to create a universal catchup mechanism for your alts and allow you to reroll. All your toons will be at a mean AP, no matter when you roll them(because 1. Your alts have quicker ak than your mains and 2. There are 20+ levels of catchup to get them close to your main immediately)

It's much ado about nothing, the change is vastly positive for alts and alt specs, and indeed will create an environment where one can reroll without consequence and catchup with only gear over the course of a few weeks.(assuming my legendary guesses are close to accurate, we will know soon)

[sponge5307]

So then the casuals will have to do the M+ that fits their gear/skill level instead of relying on their betters to cheat the system? I still see no problem.

Yea the issue we have now is that if you have a+2 key and try to hold a group most likely some people won't know what they are doing and they are a bit undergear which might not be enough dps/tank doesn't have have hp damage reducation or healers boing OOM or not enough HPS. and case a wipe. Worse might be even be able to complete the run. Having at least 1 to 2 over gear in the group it makes the run a lot smoother. Is like heroics having a higher level gear party allows more mistakes to be made.

[Saverem]

Yea the issue we have now is that if you have a+2 key and try to hold a group most likely some people won't know what they are doing and they are a bit undergear which might not be enough dps/tank doesn't have have hp damage reducation or healers boing OOM or not enough HPS. and case a wipe. Worse might be even be able to complete the run. Having at least 1 to 2 over gear in the group it makes the run a lot smoother. Is like heroics having a higher level gear party allows more mistakes to be made.

It's impossible to be undergeared for a +2 unless you just hit 110. You'll be fine in there with a group of 830s. My DH is in 860 gear and all he's done is world quests, the world bosses, and a few LFRs.

[Deleted]

they just don't get it at all

They lost it long time ago. Just look at this flying mess. They have no idea what they want. You either design the world and future worlds for flying, making for example flying dangerous, so you have to choose if you want to fly and take a risk or use ground mount. OR you dont have flying mounts at all and just design the world for ground mount. But they have noone at the team that can take a real decision they listen to much to the community.

[Twiztedterry]

does every single AP WQ That pops
I don't understand ... AP burnout

10/10. Would read again.

You did read where I sad my Brother is the one who does all of the AP WQ's, right? I simply do what I want, and my main's Artifact is at 46, IIRC

[JIMM-]

I think MANY of you don't understand how this works. I believe indeed the biggest problem here is that the design is too complicated for a casual observer(or shitslinger) to comprehend.

Let me list off some of the silly arguments against this move, in this very thread:

1. It won't help my alts!! - LOL, really? You do understand that as AK builds(faster until you are caught up, for your alts, plus multiple catchup mechanisms) you, your alts, and your new characters will all end up at the MEAN. Mean means average. That means that your alts won't be nerfed because of this change. Ironically, this change is the exact opposite of what you believe, and in fact is one of the few changes that allow your alts to catchup. On top of that, Legendaries are gonna basically be tokens/nothing next patch(not confirmed, but highly likely) so now your alts will be near 100% of your mains on AP and legendaries in a couple of weeks after dinging, they will also have flying. You see, Artifact Knowledge increases the rate you learn AP, so your alts will be able to do in minutes, what took months before.......your other specs will be in an even better position.
2. The game is catering to the hardcore - Really? Because the other complaint is that it is catering to the casuals. This change does not cater to either group. The hardcore will still be able to grind to get an increase over scrub n00bs, it will just be a smaller gap that can be achieved. Also, the grind will be longer than ever for them if they really want to get good, because new points are balanced around a mean AK. That means OCD "people"(trying not to use a pejorative here) who cannot stand not having the absolute max will have no end to their grind(good, screw them, this game is not designed around your bullshit, because your RL cannot understand that 1% increase is within the margin for error, the game will not make concessions for your raid leader) and n00bs will not be able to whine that they can't keep up and are gimped, because they are too freakin' casual to actually play the game, but too much of a millennial to understand why they don't deserve everything for free.
3. I can't BELIEVE they are reducing maw runs, fuck that - You just don't like change. Check it, AP needs to be slightly valuable, to keep you playing week to week and to give you a reward for running RNG shit with no other reward. However, you shouldn't have to grind maw of souls for AP, ever. It shouldn't be that valuable. AK keeps it valuable for a length of time, then lessens its value. If you wanna run maw, run maw, but you will not get a 10% damage buff from it. Just play the mean unless your required to play more, otherwise you are inefficient. It's ideal.(PS: Your time spent halves its value roughly every 2 weeks)

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. Oh, I could go on, but if you read each opinion, you got people that "hate" this for every conceivable wrong reason you can imagine, and I submit they just don't understand the basic concept of cyclical gating. If anything, Blizzard shouldn't put such complex concepts in a game with a community that can barely understand simcraft.

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I don't want to single anyone out, but this is the reply type I'm talking about.

First, there is the assumption that legendaries will not be addressed. It's been made clear they will be, so inaccuracy or incorrect assumption number one(FYI, with the legendary tokens in the PTR, my guess is a timeless isle type system that lets you farm all your legendaries relatively quickly, but we will know more soon).

Second, the legit opinion that the AP system should be moved back to the valor points system with a weekly(or daily) hardcap. That's a fair opinion, nothing wrong with that, but it does fail to address the negatives with that system which were cloudily outlined in the OP(but which do exist and are many, I won't bore you with them, but PM me if you want a list of why that hard cap system isn't ideal in the game today).

Finally, he doesn't say this outright, but I get the feeling that most people believe that this will hurt the ability to play an alt or alt spec. In reality, this change(with its not-linear time based scaling) is really the optimal way to create a universal catchup mechanism for your alts and allow you to reroll. All your toons will be at a mean AP, no matter when you roll them(because 1. Your alts have quicker ak than your mains and 2. There are 20+ levels of catchup to get them close to your main immediately)

It's much ado about nothing, the change is vastly positive for alts and alt specs, and indeed will create an environment where one can reroll without consequence and catchup with only gear over the course of a few weeks.(assuming my legendary guesses are close to accurate, we will know soon)

are u retarded ? blizz do not deserve any benefit of doubt at this point, the expac is already about to end in the next 1-2 tiers and glaring issues are still not fixed. Big patches being rolled out and still no plans to fix in sight, all they have shown to players are arrogance n stubbornness with the RNG d3 loot system in WoW. What makes u think they will address the legendary issue ? wake up and stop defending the retarded diablo loot system