stormblood

[Jinxz]

Its not that we think your are cancer/poison. It is that we simply do not understand the mentality of buying a story based game to complain about having to do the story. You have plenty of options available to you in other games that are all about the skip and raid crap. We are only so persistent in our defense because we do not want the game to turn into one of those other types of games.

Look at it think way. It is like you are going to a bar complaining about there being alcohol and then crying when the drunk people tell you to stfu. How can you honestly expect a different reaction?

But why does it bother ppl whether someone want to skip the story. It's their time and their money, if they want to skip the story then that's on them. It doesn't affect you in any way.

[dope_danny]

But why does it bother ppl whether someone want to skip the story. It's their time and their money, if they want to skip the story then that's on them. It doesn't affect you in any way.

Because it does when a vocal minority are catered to by developers and change a game in a way that fails to draw in a new audience and isolates and drives away the others. 9 out of 10 popular ip's of the 2000's died to this change for 'wider market appeal' based on an assumption that a change would net a positive gain of an audience that is not there.

[TheCount]

I personally enjoy the story line and had fun doing it casually. My argument for people who don't like it is that you only have to do it once. You don't have a need for alts since you have everything on a single character, once you get it done on a single guy your set.

I can see how it might turn off a some new players, but I think if you approach it reasonably you will get through it fairly quickly.

[Binaris]

Because it does when a vocal minority are catered to by developers and change a game in a way that fails to draw in a new audience and isolates and drives away the others. 9 out of 10 popular ip's of the 2000's died to this change for 'wider market appeal' based on an assumption that a change would net a positive gain of an audience that is not there.

translation, because it does affect us when people demand the ability to skip all the content and jump into end game. The developers see people wanting to skip to story and put less resources to it because... why bother.

The game is the sum of all its content. Not just its latest patch. This has been forgotten in the genre and is a direct threat to this game. The attitude of story doesn't matter, all that matters is endgame loot is called poison for a reason. The term fits.

[Masoner]

But why does it bother ppl whether someone want to skip the story. It's their time and their money, if they want to skip the story then that's on them. It doesn't affect you in any way.

So when I'm level 60 BRD and I walk up to you and you are level 60 WHM, we know exactly what each of us have done and given to the game to accomplish that goal. When we enter the raid or dungeon, I know you too have spent that time invested in the story to unlock them.

there is value in that.

[StrawberryZebra]

Mary Sue does not mean what you think it means.

Alphinaud fits the description pretty much perfectly. He's over idealised to the point where he takes over being the protagonist in the main story. I presume he's ment to be the character the audience is ment to project on to, which explains his almost complete blank-slate personality, him acquiring skills and knowledge whenever the plot demands it and his ability to simply insert himself into a role where he is effectively a key advisor to all the major city states in Eorzea.

Once you're done with killing Titan, the rest of the story is almost entirely driven by him and his off-screen actions. He's done very little of note on his own merits, yet is immediately the center of attention regardless. He may not be intended as an Author Insert, he's both a Player-Insert character and fits practically every Mary Sue descriptor going, short of having a romantic relationship with Spock.

The other characters are a bit more of a stretch, but its undeniable that they've got practically zero character flaws. It's even frequently pointed out by characters like Matoya that they were child prodigies and were exceptional students etc etc. So again, they fit most of the critera for being a Mary Sue. Simply having characters like them around warped the story whenever they were on screen. Even so far as to warp the players actions too. You can't decide your character is a reluctant anti-hero with people like Minfiila around. You can't be a complete arsehole and abuse your authority with people like Y'shtola around. The idealism they have is just too abundant and they're far too zealous about doing the right thing to stand out as unique characters, and tramples on much of the agency the player has.

Rest assured, I know the difference between a badly written character I despise that the writers keep forcing on you, (Tataru. Fucking Tataru...) and a Mary Sue.

Because it does when a vocal minority are catered to by developers and change a game in a way that fails to draw in a new audience and isolates and drives away the others.

In my experience, the people who've actually enjoyed the story are in a vast minority to the people who just wanted to blaze right through it and get into Heavensward to unlock the job they wanted to play, or to get into raiding content. That might not line up with everyone elses experience of course, but my observation has generally been that most of the players I meet regard the story as a nuisance rather than worthwhile content.

Arguments for keep the story mandatory are wooly at best. "Story Driven Games" are ones like The Beginners Guide or the Stanley Parable. Great little experiences that I'd reccomend picking up to be sure, but they're exclusively vehicles to deliver the narrative. Final Fantasy has far more gameplay than true Story Driven Games, and I've always considered that what story FF games have traditionally had was more to serve the mechanics than to be the focal point of the game.

People enjoying the story is one that comes up a lot too. I get this one, I really do. But were the story to be optional for unlocking later content it would have no impact at all on the people who want to dig into the story, while also pleasing the people who don't like the story. It's a very clear win-win situation for everyone involved.

Are there any compelling arguments for keeping the story mandatory? Genuinely interested here. They predominently boil down to Appeals to Tradition, which hold very little weight as a convincing argument, and "other MMO's did it and they're bad so it's bad" type reasoning without really explaining on why that is.

Look at it think way. It is like you are going to a bar complaining about there being alcohol and then crying when the drunk people tell you to stfu. How can you honestly expect a different reaction?

It's more like going to a bar and not liking the Wine. There's plenty of good Beers and Cocktails you can enjoy, but you're not going to get Wine. There are plenty of other aspects of FF 14 you can enjoy if you dislike the story.

[Rafal]

My biggest worry is FF14 trying to be WoW. I don't want it to be WoW. I want it to continue being beautiful and cinematic, I want them to keep improving the UI instead of supporting add-ons.I want them to keep pushing the story.

There is this thing with the story where I feel like new players believe they can't play with friends, but becuase of lvl sync that's not entirely true.

[Deleted]

I don't understand what the fuss is about.... it is a main final fantasy title and thus it is going to have huge emphasis on the story. Ι started the game late ARR (2.4 I think?) and had to do a shit load of quests to catch up to everyone else. Did I mind? absolutely not. Why? well there are a few reasons:
1.) I bought the game full knowingly that it was a very very story driven game and thus I cared to pay attention to the story. If I didnt want a story driven game there are myriads of other MMOs that play just like it. FFXIV gameplay wise doesnt have anything revolutionary going for it there are others things about it that make it my favorite MMO to date.
2.) A change of mentality on how I view content. The current "relevant content" at that time was shiva and the final coil of bahamut. However since I personally had not done any of the previous content all of it was relevant to me. I wanted to see the dungeons, see the trials, experience the story that got everybody else hooked to the game. Was the story always interesting? Hell no but it got interesting enough by lvl 35-40. Were the quests without flaws? Certainly not as a lot of the 2.1-2.5 quests are cancerous fetch quests and playing stupid hide and seeks for the sake of having more quests to do. But they did not take long and the story was well worth it. The team also learned from it and the HW equivalents have none of this bs and dont take nearly as much time.

Also a few more things. If by lvl 50 you do not enjoy any of the 11 basic jobs, chances are you will not enjoy the other 3 either nor would you enjoy the other 3 if they were available at the start. MCH from 1-50 plays incredibly similar to the bard only getting a distinctly different playstyle at the current max lvl, DRK plays incredibly similar to the WAR only getting its own unique playstyle at max lvl and AST is another story but he doesnt differentiate much from WHM with the exception of the card system again until max lvl.
So the whole "I didnt like any of the ARR classes" argument is kind of a bullshit excuse.
Enjoy the game for what it is, change your mentality and stop makign some thing a bigger issue than they actually are. The 2.1-2.5 quests take a lot less time than people make them out to take and if you are someone who is not interested in the story and skip every cutscene it wont take you more than 1-2 casual days of play to finish.

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Most games have just enough story to give context to the players actions and to keep the action going. If those game Devs have a story they're simply burning to tell then they really should be considering a career as a novelist, not a game developer. I'm not saying that as an insult to them, more a statement of fact. Video games have almost always handled complex story poorly due to the story conflicting with the games mechanics.

Thats where FF 14s story fails. The very idea that people could actually die in a world where there's more Phoenix Down's than you know what to do with is simply ludicrous. There are NPC's who complain about extreme poverty who will give every single player thousands of Gil! You kill a litteral GOD at level 20, yet are told by NPC's that a band of common thugs is going to be a challenge. The mechanics and the story just do not line up at all and the result is a hot mess that people just want to skip.



Quite possiably for the one unique thing MMORPG's still have left - Group RPG content. FF 14 is a game that is packed with interesting and varied dungeons and some of the best raiding I've seen in a very long time. Keeping one of the main attractions of your genre locked away behind a bunch of hurdles just ends up with a section of your playerbase who resent you for it.

I dare say that a game that kept Group and Raiding content, but ditched most of the other MMO conventions such as questing, would be something that would appeal to significant slice of the audience of a traditional MMORPG. It keeps the things that those players are interested in, while removing the things they don't enjoy. Plus removing all the big time sinks makes it far more interesting to people who want a raiding experience, but don't have the time to invest in a traditional MMORPG.

You dont kill a god by lvl 20. The game actually does a pretty good job of explaining why you can best ifrit at that level. Regardless of what the beast tribes consider them to be, the primals are not gods (far from it in fact). At lvl 20 you kill a severely weakened version of ifrit because of an imperfect and rushed summoning and a lack of resources to summon him.

[dope_danny]

You dont kill a god by lvl 20. The game actually does a pretty good job of explaining why you can best ifrit at that level. Regardless of what the beast tribes consider them to be, the primals are not gods (far from it in fact). At lvl 20 you kill a severely weakened version of ifrit because of an imperfect and rushed summoning and a lack of resources to summon him.

That and if they read the story they would know the only reason you beat it not any other soldier is the echo stops you being tempered and others cannot resist the mind control.

[StrawberryZebra]

That and if they read the story they would know the only reason you beat it not any other soldier is the echo stops you being tempered and others cannot resist the mind control.

I believe the term for that is Plot Armour. It happens all the time in the Final Fantasy series, but for whatever reason it seems to happen in 14 more than most.

[Binaris]

I believe the term for that is Plot Armour. It happens all the time in the Final Fantasy series, but for whatever reason it seems to happen in 14 more than most.

Umm not even close. did you even read the wiki page you mindlessly posted?

"Bear in mind that having Plot Armor is not the same as being Nigh Invulnerable. When Superman takes a bullet to the eye and survives, that's his superhuman nature — there's an explanation, albeit a fantastic one, for how he comes out unharmed. When Indiana Jones survives the same thing, that's Plot Armor — the only explanation for his survival is that it's only halfway through the movie and you know he can't die yet. (Bonus points if he isn't even blinded.)

If you actually pay attention to the story, the echo ability that prevents your mind from being influenced by the primals is ingrained throughout the entire story as much as supermans powers. The story revolves around it from the moment it is discovered that you as well as a select few others have the echo. SO by definition of your own dam link. Not plot armor. Try again to be witty. We will wait...

[StrawberryZebra]

Umm not even close. did you even read the wiki page you mindlessly posted?

Also from said Wiki page;

The Warrior of Light/the player character in Final Fantasy XIV has plot armor to an absurd degree. They're immune to being brainwashed by primals, they shake off an attack from Midgardsormr, an ancient dragon that has the capability to level entire cities, and can basically survive any attack thrown their way while anyone else that is not the main characters are cannon fodder. This is handwaved by explaining that the Warrior of Light is protected with Hydaelyn's blessing, which allows them to survive a lot of things. Despite the fact that the blessing is removed when the Heavensward secnario begins, the Warrior of Light still has plot armor.

[Binaris]

Whoever wrote that crap is picking and choosing super powers. The blessing and the echo are different things. When stripped of the blessing you do not lose the echo. That is part of you. that is your power. Just as in the case they make for superman. Seems whoever wrote that is about as into the story as you are and doesnt know wtf they are talking about.

To clarify, midgarsormer gets pissy and strips you of the shield that she gives you to protect you against Ultima weapon as well as Lahabrea. This is symbolized in game by the removal of the He does not remove the power of echo because he can't. This is not plot armor. This is plot.

[Melsiren]

Alphinaud fits the description pretty much perfectly. He's over idealised to the point where he takes over being the protagonist in the main story. I presume he's ment to be the character the audience is ment to project on to, which explains his almost complete blank-slate personality, him acquiring skills and knowledge whenever the plot demands it and his ability to simply insert himself into a role where he is effectively a key advisor to all the major city states in Eorzea.

Once you're done with killing Titan, the rest of the story is almost entirely driven by him and his off-screen actions. He's done very little of note on his own merits, yet is immediately the center of attention regardless. He may not be intended as an Author Insert, he's both a Player-Insert character and fits practically every Mary Sue descriptor going, short of having a romantic relationship with Spock.

The other characters are a bit more of a stretch, but its undeniable that they've got practically zero character flaws. It's even frequently pointed out by characters like Matoya that they were child prodigies and were exceptional students etc etc. So again, they fit most of the critera for being a Mary Sue. Simply having characters like them around warped the story whenever they were on screen. Even so far as to warp the players actions too. You can't decide your character is a reluctant anti-hero with people like Minfiila around. You can't be a complete arsehole and abuse your authority with people like Y'shtola around. The idealism they have is just too abundant and they're far too zealous about doing the right thing to stand out as unique characters, and tramples on much of the agency the player has.

Rest assured, I know the difference between a badly written character I despise that the writers keep forcing on you, (Tataru. Fucking Tataru...) and a Mary Sue.

No, you really do not.

But, you're entitled to your wrong opinion.


PS, They "warp" the story because the scions are main characters, they don't warp the story they drive the story, it's been like that since 1.0 and Alph ( his sister) is taking the role Louisoix filled.

But, hey you paid so little attention that you actually thought Primals were gods.

[Aruhen]

How can you hate Tataru...

[Cattleya]

Wait, someone thinks Alphinaud is a gary stu? He's not even nearly perfect enough for that. His combat qualities are pretty standard fare and his leadership..well, remember the crystal braves.

[StrawberryZebra]

But, hey you paid so little attention that you actually thought Primals were gods.

How silly of me to assume the creatures frequently refered to as "Deities" that are essentially the manifestation of prayers were gods. If they're actual gods or not, they are certainly considered as such by both the Ascians and the Beast tribes. And by their other worshipers in the case of Thordan and Shiva. Thancred even jokes that you, the player, are their own personal god-slayer.

Hell, its even hinted at by the Ascians that the player may be a form of Primal too, given strength by the worship of the people of Eorzea.

Wait, someone thinks Alphinaud is a gary stu? He's not even nearly perfect enough for that. His combat qualities are pretty standard fare and his leadership..well, remember the crystal braves.

Do remember that he remarkably gained all of his combat abilities off screen. He went from being a strict none-combatant to skilled Arcanist in the time it takes for you to pass through the gates of judgement to the Foundation. By the time you get a couple of quests in, he's even advanced so far he can summon two entirely new Carbuncles he invented as he went along.

He also went from being Mystery Kid in the opening scene to de-facto of the Scions by basically just showing up out of the blue one day and inserting himself into the role while Minfilia was captured.

As for the Crystal Braves, I think you'll need to do better than him acknowledging that he's too much of an idealist as evidence that he's not a massively idealised character .

How can you hate Tataru...

They tried far too hard to make her endearing and overshot. It's like a Choccolate Cake thats topped with Ice Cream, then covered in Sprinkes and Raspberry Sauce and served on a bed of Summer Fruits, Toffee and Marshmallow. It's just too much! Every time she did that eager little dance I just wanted to violently vomit out my own internal organs I despised her that much. They even had her playing the damsel in distress role once or twice too just to really cement how much I hated her.

[Scufflegrit]

Man, you must absolutely love whatever tiny little bit of the game that keeps you playing. Your hatred of all the rest of it is just so intense. It actually reads like teenaged, angst filled Anakin Skywalker posting on a gaming forum.

[Bearshield]

if you want to do the outdated story content ... you still can. Just don't force everyone to do so.

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imagine in the 5th expac.... the new guy will have to do hours of outdated content just to be able to finally play with his friends, like wth.

Don't even get me started on the new jobs being locked behind mandatory story quests.

Why as a new player would you not want to experience the game in its entirety? You're looking at it from the view of someone who has already done it, but did you really hate it the first time through? I know I didn't. There are plenty of games out there that rush you to max level with little to no story. It's nice that there is one out there that is different.

[Melsiren]

How silly of me to assume the creatures frequently refered to as "Deities" that are essentially the manifestation of prayers were gods. If they're actual gods or not, they are certainly considered as such by both the Ascians and the Beast tribes. And by their other worshipers in the case of Thordan and Shiva. Thancred even jokes that you, the player, are their own personal god-slayer.

And it's silly for me to expect some one to actually pay attention to the story, when they make it clear all they want to find is issues, and force issues that no one else sees.

Primals are not gods, read between the lines.

I think I'm fully done here, before you beat your meat again to how awesome and well written of a character Doomguy is.