The need to 3 chest

[Deleted]

Its hard enough to kill the mobs on a +15 but this only promotes asshole behavior and elitists. Make the time an optional like transmog gear or whatever like MoP for people who want to prove they can beat the timer and leave the rest a normal run. Have an option to set it at the beginning of the instance.

I'm saying no depletion or keys or timers. Be able to set any difficulty and do whatever you want up to the max you've done. Like Diablo. Timers only encourage this extremely toxic and elitist community to get worse and I don't do them anymore for that specific reason.

Oh no strangers on the internet were rude towards me. Run with people you know and probled solved.

[Raiju]

In the looking for group, every group wants to 3 chest instead of attempting to do the highest keystone level they can complete in time. What could Blizzard change so people actually tried to do the hardest content they can instead of trying to complete the content that is beneath them?

Significantly reduce chance of titanforging. Right now it's more profitable gearwise (not to mention ap from the time spent 3chesting) to 3 chest 6 items and hope for TF rather than run single instances for 1 chest at +15 (ignoring those who can comfortably 3 chest 15)

[IKT]

Oh no strangers on the internet were rude towards me.

This isn't a helpful attitude to have.

Run with people you know and probled solved.

This is like saying if you don't like people punching you in the face every day, don't leave your bedroom.

There's clearly something worth fixing here.

[Varitok]

Oh no strangers on the internet were rude towards me. Run with people you know and probled solved.

Ignore the issue of a toxic community and just try to find one of the few non toxics, Yeah that fixes the issue for when they can't/don't want to play.

[laplacedemon]

Its hard enough to kill the mobs on a +15 but this only promotes asshole behavior and elitists.

Without timers, you could just BL, pot, use CDs and walk through any kind of mobs though. That wouldn't be a "test of skill" like you said though.

And if you really want, you can make your own no-timer run. If you complete it even without making the timer, you can still get gear and the weekly chest rewards. There are usually some 10-15 "weekly" runs.

I have pugged around 300 m+ as a healer, most of them >7 -nowadays >12s and I have seen toxic behaviour only twice. I'm not gonna act like there's no toxicity in WoW, however on m+ it is *far* less than I personally expected.

[Alvito]

Beyond the increased rewards 3 chests also means you finished quickly. Not wasting time is important to people.

[Charlooo]

Significantly reduce chance of titanforging. Right now it's more profitable gearwise (not to mention ap from the time spent 3chesting) to 3 chest 6 items and hope for TF rather than run single instances for 1 chest at +15 (ignoring those who can comfortably 3 chest 15)

Depends on your gear. If you are already decked out in nighthold heroic gear then its better to do +14/+15 as titanforged gear will go to 900 auto.

[Raiju]

Depends on your gear. If you are already decked out in nighthold heroic gear then its better to do +14/+15 as titanforged gear will go to 900 auto.

Yes, my point is the only way to reduce peoples desire to 3 chest is to make titanforging rarer (so that the innate higher gear is more valuable). People in 900 gear are going to try to multichest from 15 rather than 13 due to the 10 ilvls.

[GutsAP]

Because 3 chesting is better than 1 chesting 3 times?

[MiseryIndex]

Every issue people have with M+ comes down to people not having a regular group to go with. Yes, randoms are toxic, yes, pugging leads to unrealistic gear/achievement requirements. I have a pool of 5-8 people from my guild that I run with, never had any issues. As much as it annoys people, instead of bitching on forums, joining a guild and being a part of a PVE community will make most of your problems go away. Unless your performance is mediocre, which honestly, not all the forums threads in the world are going to fix.

[vixien]

Proof that keys higher than 15 are more likely to drop titanforged items?

I said "more likely to titanforge to a 900ish amount". Which is true. an 860 piece of gear from a +5 mythic has to first Titanforge and then roll 875-925 bracket. If the base level is 885, then it is rolling between 900-925.

[stolker]

It's just a huge balancing mistake by Blizzard. Ideally it wouldn't matter what you do, everything would give you roughly the same amount of loot (per ilvl) and AP. Higher keys would take longer time (obviously) but in return drop proportionately higher AP and higher level items, and everything should be biased maybe a bit in the direction of harder difficulty.

The problem is that whoever at Blizzard is responsible for balancing this just failed at their job. There are some simple imbalances at a mathematical level. Higher level keystones do drop proportionately higher AP, and have higher level items, but the math doesn't match up. Since the keystone chests in lower level dungeons reward items of higher item levels than the keystone run at (so one of the 3 chests in a lvl 13 3 chest run will give 885 where the base ilvl for level 13 is 875), the 'certain ilvl of item per run' rate at low key 3 chesting will be higher than high key 1 chesting, because the chance of war and titanforging reduces the average time by more than you need in higher chest run.

It's also obvious Blizzard attempted a roughly linear balancing with the AP rewards (or its a nonlinear function with such a slow growth as to be indistuingishable from a linear function), but the function of time taken/keystone level is clearly nonlinear (it needs to be some fairly flat exponential curve, probably).

An even bigger problem is that the entire balancing doesn't even consider real time of runs. It doesn't consider the fact that 3 chesting takes less time. Even if all other things were equal (the amount of ilvl item you see per run, the amount of AP you get per run), runs at lower keys just take flat out less real time and Blizzard hasn't accounted for this in their balancing in the slighest. Even worse when you crush a keystone so much that you significantly break the +3 limit.

[Deleted]

From my perspective the problem is this:

Keystone level 15 rewards at its best 6 885 items for the group. Anything above 15 is basically a waste of time since it only makes your life harder without getting anything for it. The only reason I cleared keys up to 20 was for having a challenge.
I'd never run anything above 17 with "randoms".


None of the semi-hardcore - hardcore players run m+ for AP anymore. They want TF loot. They run their desired dungeons (13-15 - most likely 15) over and over again. The more chests the more items you get the higher the chance of getting your desired TF-item.

The only way fixing this would be blizzard uping the scale for wf/tf drops.

I.E. chest 16-17 = 1x wf (890) , chest 18-19= wf+5 (895), chest 20+= tf (900) etc.
If blizzards wants us to finish those high keys then they should reward us accordingly.
Acms wouldn't fix the prblem since people would do it once for the acm and then be done with it and continue running 13-15 keys.

Currently there's no reason to finish anything above 15. No transmog, no acm, no title. We don't even have a meaningful leaderboard since once affixes made full circle most player increased thier ilvl by a lot and those old times mean nothing anymore.

[TheRogue]

The highest with any tangible reward is a 19 since it rewards a 15 for next week. Its also more likely to titanforge to a 900ish amount. The problem is having a capable group. I can 6-9 with any comp. I cant with a 17.

? what lol

[Deleted]

Yes, my point is the only way to reduce peoples desire to 3 chest is to make titanforging rarer (so that the innate higher gear is more valuable). People in 900 gear are going to try to multichest from 15 rather than 13 due to the 10 ilvls.

are you kidding me?

People who boost 13-15 with 3 chests most likely are raiding mythic content (900+ ilvl). They run 15 > 14 > 13. They'd run 15 all the time if there were enough keys around. If you reduce the chance on tf even more then even more people would lose intrest in running m+.

At least that's how the world goes from my perspective.

If anything then a 20/21 chest should reward a 900 ilvl item (tf allready).

- - - Updated - - -

The highest with any tangible reward is a 19 since it rewards a 15 for next week. Its also more likely to titanforge to a 900ish amount. The problem is having a capable group. I can 6-9 with any comp. I cant with a 17.

that's bs.


First of all a +20 rewards a +15 key.
You get the same loot for a +19 as for a +15 but a +15 is more likely to get 3 chested = more efficient

[Jonnusthegreat]

Are you asking why a group would want to maximize rewards rather than try to do something harder for potentially no gain? Seems pretty self-explanatory.

No, he is not. I suggest you read the OP.

[Aphrel]

While mythic dungeons are great there are some major problems with how the content is played imo. Atm there are no reason at all to push higher than 15.

1. I am personally very tired of boosting in a 4man grp, blizz should just allow you to choose whether you want a new key of the same lvl instead of an automatic +3 upgrade so that the most efficient farm would be a 5man grp. This would solve the annoying boosting culture.

2. The weekly chest rewards are fine but the item that drops in the dungeons should scale up higher until at say 18-20 it drops the same ilvl loot as the weekly chest. that way ppl have an incentive to push higher m+ with organized groups.

3. Ap shouldnt be static, it should increase linearly with hp. (or perhaps even exponentially. Like a 10% multiplier per lvl). It should also increase depending on what the timer to complete is for the instance. So if a maw with a 24min timer gives 300k on +10. a hov+10 with a 45min timer should give 562k.

4. An interesting idea would be to make a "random mythic keystone" that teleports you and the party to a random dungeon when you activate it. It whould remove the annoyance of having to travel to the instance between runs.

[stolker]

I agree that ilvl of the dungeons should slowly scale until they're at the same ilvl guaranteed as the weekly chest. It could still give, say, 900 in weekly chest when you complete a +15 (which drops 885), so people who are just not able to go higher still have a way to slowly increase their ilvl over weeks, but imo if they really want to make high level m+ viable 15-20 needs to slowly scale upwards to drop 900 guaranteed at 20 or something. I know that's higher than nighthold HC, but it's significantly lower than nighthold mythic! And you're also not clearing +20s without significant time investment in gear that can't clear HC nighthold easily. I suspect everyone in the group must be 900+ at the very least. Still it would be extremely nice and challenging for 900+ people for gear slots that they dont have at 900 yet (such as trinkets), general warforging/titanforging, and probably increased legendary chances from higher difficulty content.

[Deleted]

While mythic dungeons are great there are some major problems with how the content is played imo. Atm there are no reason at all to push higher than 15.

1. I am personally very tired of boosting in a 4man grp, blizz should just allow you to choose whether you want a new key of the same lvl instead of an automatic +3 upgrade so that the most efficient farm would be a 5man grp. This would solve the annoying boosting culture.

2. The weekly chest rewards are fine but the item that drops in the dungeons should scale up higher until at say 18-20 it drops the same ilvl loot as the weekly chest. that way ppl have an incentive to push higher m+ with organized groups.

3. Ap shouldnt be static, it should increase linearly with hp. (or perhaps even exponentially. Like a 10% multiplier per lvl). It should also increase depending on what the timer to complete is for the instance. So if a maw with a 24min timer gives 300k on +10. a hov+10 with a 45min timer should give 562k.

4. An interesting idea would be to make a "random mythic keystone" that teleports you and the party to a random dungeon when you activate it. It whould remove the annoyance of having to travel to the instance between runs.

Dont thery wont gona apply something like this soon on PTR ???The weekly chest will gives you falt AP based on lervel and you will earn more AP doing HoV than MoS (should be twice more to lure ppl there )
Look for point 4 i`m agree we should get portals once we complete the dungeon at lv 10 But once when we start to fly thats not be a big issue
Back on topic the only reason to do 3 chest is because key upgrade 2-3 dungeons and i`m on lv 12-14 then i can push to 15 with no mater how many chests

[Deleted]

Its hard enough to kill the mobs on a +15 but this only promotes asshole behavior and elitists.

No it is not hard to kill the mobs on +15. I like the challenging content. I've had my ass wiped from bosses and trashes way too many times in order to learn how to clear my dungeons more efficiently. Why would I care to group with a person who has not the same mentality and has also wiped plenty of times pushing keys ?

Why do you want so bad to play with people who have already better experience and gear than you, and why should they play with you?

For months I used to get declined in 19/20 dungeons I applied for, but I worked myself out of the gutter and can just link my wowprogress score and get instantly invited most of the time ( unless they are full on melee or looking for utility )

It is not elitism, it is self-preservation, I've spent a lot of my free time to learn how to deal with higher keys, I am simply not interested to teach random players how to play a dungeon, when to use cooldowns, what packs to skip, what to interrupt etc.

Spend the time yourself and and figure out how to kill in +15 or higher, don't expect people to teach you.

Stop calling elitism just because people don't think you are good enough for what they want to do. Other player's time is also precious to them, the universe doesn't revolve around you.