Jeff Kaplan

[Kokolums]

If you don't think there are people in today's gaming market who are paid to monitor the trends I've mentioned in each of my posts you keep trying to disregard as "anecdotal," I don't know what to tell you. Gaming in 2017 is much different than it was in 2004. The game you're proposing would never make it past the development stage because there isn't a studio in existence who would make a game like Vanilla WoW in today's market. Moreover, if PS participation is any indication, the market of players who prefer that type of game represent less than 1% of the current retail playerbase.

Big Data is not infalliable. The flaw in Big Data is when it asks the wrong questions, or fails to ask questions the correct way.

I think you are totally wrong in saying vanilla wow would not succeed today. If you want to say people would dislike balance issues in vanilla wow, or the raid design, that might be true. However, I think the fact that vanilla wow is tremendously SOCIAL with vibrant in-game communities would totally overwhelm those negatives and a vanilla wow server released today would grow to 20 million + subs. The reason is the PRIMARY appeal is the social factor.

[Akka]

I think, aside from pure design decision in the sense of LFG etc, people seem misunderstand one huge thing between pre-cata and post-cata. Vanilla, TBC and Wrath had for the most part great writing and lore (well, TBC not so much, it ruined KT and Illidan). Cata and WoD on the other hand, were utter shit. MoP was great if you cared about it but the setting put a lot of people off (I am one of those). That leaves us with Legion, which is honestly amazing in terms of features. Sure some classes are still hit or miss but overall the game has never been better. Problem though, Legion's writing is pretty poor IMO.

In terms of pure gameplay, Legion is the best xpac by a huge margin. But give me Wrath with Legion's gameplay and features and that would be something !

Kinda agree on everything except your take on Legion.
Best gameplay ? Seriously ? It's the WORST I've ever witnessed in the game, how can you not only like it but even praise it is beyond me 0_o
(well, at least we agree on the writing)

[Desparil]

Best gameplay ? Seriously ? It's the WORST I've ever witnessed in the game, how can you not only like it but even praise it is beyond me 0_o

It cant be worst you witnessed, you play vanilla.



Look at all the action and immersive gameplay go.

I mean i understand someone liking atunements, long ass mob grinds, resistance gear, even weird itemized gear but cmmon? Gameplay? You could literally go to bathroom for 5 mins and leave that woodpecker toy to press 1 button and no one would notice it on first kill.

[Akka]

It cant be worst you witnessed, you play vanilla.

Such originality in copy-pasting tired memes !
Of course it's easier than to actually argue the point in-depth. I'm not sure it's worth it (because there is a high chance it'll simply be ignored/dismissed/twisted as is ubiquitous each time Vanilla enters the game), but for the sake of good faith I'll try :

First, an important point : Vanilla gameplay was much poorer in raid than in open world, due to the fact that classes had large toolkits for regular mob, but raid bosses were often immune to much of it. The raw "damage output" gameplay was only a part of the whole pack (contrary to today where it's basically 90 % of what you'll ever do in game).
I could just as well make a video of regular multi-mob dealing in Legion (group them and LoLAoE) and compare it unfavourably with how it happened in such case in Vanilla (distributing CC, using CD to stay alive, kiting and so on).

Also, it heavily depends on classes : mages certainly were one or two-buttons spam in MC, but rogues' rotation is rather close to what is in Legion - the main difference being rather that Legion is faster than the nature of it.

Vanilla's gameplay was much more varied and tied with much more different concepts of classes. Legion has focused entirely on rotations, and completely left aside anything else. Forget buffs, forget debuffs, forget stances or postures, forget management of threat or mana, forget CC. But yay, better rotation, that certainly makes the whole gameplay better !
Legion's gameplay has more button pressing, but has little personality - the whole "class fantasy" is a complete failure, classes still feel all kinda the same and at the same time spec don't feel tied between themselves at all. So there is no class identity left, and the gameplay reflect this absence of character by being extremely homogeneized.

Finally, Vanilla allowed to actually play outside instances. Legion has intricate raid encounters, and if you rise high enough in Mythic+ things can become hairy, but leave these two places and the gameplay is shitty and poor as hell, as you can basically spam 1 like in the video you deride, and get everything done. Fighting one regular mob in outside content in Vanilla was more challenging and required more diverse gameplay than facerolling an entire "heroic" dungeon is in Legion (which is not to say it was especially challenging, rather to point just how low Legion has fallen).
My entire leveling experience with my rogue has basically been "Mutilate, Envenom, next mob". My entire leveling experience with my monk has been "Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, next mob". As someone would say : "Look at all the action and immersive gameplay go."

So yeah, raid rotation and placement in Vanilla were rather simplistic, and to be honest raid rythm was quite a bit TOO slow, but the tunnel spamfest of Legion has improved on these two elements, while dumbing down or removing everything else.

[Desparil]

Such originality in copy-pasting tired memes !
Of course it's easier than to actually argue the point in-depth. I'm not sure it's worth it (because there is a high chance it'll simply be ignored/dismissed/twisted as is ubiquitous each time Vanilla enters the game), but for the sake of good faith I'll try :

Well you can't expect more when you infest every single thread with "muh vanilla the greatest" and "legion sucks" we get it you hate current game and you like vanilla and thats ok but you can expect meme responses when you are relentless with it.

First, an important point : Vanilla gameplay was much poorer in raid than in open world, due to the fact that classes had large toolkits for regular mob, but raid bosses were often immune to much of it. The raw "damage output" gameplay was only a part of the whole pack (contrary to today where it's basically 90 % of what you'll ever do in game).

It was poorer because what like 60% never reached max level iirc. So vast majority of people never even set foot in raid and thats and their toolsets were made of mostly useless stuff which you use once in full moon. Look i leveled 2 chars to 40 in vanilla and stopped with that until tbc i was noob as one can be keyboard turning and all shenanigans but not once did i find it hard.

I could just as well make a video of regular multi-mob dealing in Legion (group them and LoLAoE) and compare it unfavourably with how it happened in such case in Vanilla (distributing CC, using CD to stay alive, kiting and so on).

Why regular multi-mob dealing in legion? I linked video from pinnacle of raiding at that time if you want to link something go link Helya, Guldan, Xavius mythic videos when they were current content for real comparison, don't be dishonest.

Also, it heavily depends on classes : mages certainly were one or two-buttons spam in MC, but rogues' rotation is rather close to what is in Legion - the main difference being rather that Legion is faster than the nature of it.

Vanilla's gameplay was much more varied and tied with much more different concepts of classes. Legion has focused entirely on rotations, and completely left aside anything else. Forget buffs, forget debuffs, forget stances or postures, forget management of threat or mana, forget CC. But yay, better rotation, that certainly makes the whole gameplay better !

Ye i would say there were more 2 button specs and i didn't even look hard i mean i could say spell steal is part of rotation now for mages when in reality its not.

Finally, Vanilla allowed to actually play outside instances. Legion has intricate raid encounters, and if you rise high enough in Mythic+ things can become hairy, but leave these two places and the gameplay is shitty and poor as hell, as you can basically spam 1 like in the video you deride, and get everything done. Fighting one regular mob in outside content in Vanilla was more challenging and required more diverse gameplay than facerolling an entire "heroic" dungeon is in Legion (which is not to say it was especially challenging, rather to point just how low Legion has fallen).
My entire leveling experience with my rogue has basically been "Mutilate, Envenom, next mob". My entire leveling experience with my monk has been "Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, next mob". As someone would say : "Look at all the action and immersive gameplay go."

Go in Suramar city or take any elite mob or mob pack when you don't outgear it as fuck and try it then im sure in full raid gear in vanilla world mobs didn't make you too much problems

So yeah, raid rotation and placement in Vanilla were rather simplistic, and to be honest raid rythm was quite a bit TOO slow, but the tunnel spamfest of Legion has improved on these two elements, while dumbing down or removing everything else.

Well nothing stops you to go high m+ and not rush it you wont get 3 chests and you can take your time cc-ing mobs and if you go 20+ or whatnot you certainly will need to if you don't have gear for it.
Or if you find lfr/norm/hc raiding easy you can step it up and try something more difficult, challenge is still there and one can argue that its at its highest point if one wants to go for it. As blizzard said most of people never step up their game if something is too difficult they just quit thats why we have mode for everyone.

I mean i don't really care what you do, everyone plays game they want its just that i was luckier one with direction game took.

[Kithelle]

I tanked in vanilla as a paladin... Then in BC it was much improved... then wrath.... then holy power f that up...

Just because you could do it doesn't mean it was optimal...Ret could DPS...but there were better options

[Akka]

Well you can't expect more when you infest every single thread with "muh vanilla the greatest" and "legion sucks" we get it you hate current game and you like vanilla and thats ok but you can expect meme responses when you are relentless with it.

Yeah, because we absolutely don't see the same people infesting the same threads on the other side of the fence, absolutely not

Why regular multi-mob dealing in legion? I linked video from pinnacle of raiding at that time if you want to link something go link Helya, Guldan, Xavius mythic videos when they were current content for real comparison, don't be dishonest.
[...]
Or if you find lfr/norm/hc raiding easy you can step it up and try something more difficult, challenge is still there and one can argue that its at its highest point if one wants to go for it. As blizzard said most of people never step up their game if something is too difficult they just quit thats why we have mode for everyone.

As I expected, it's no use to try to make detailed argument with you people...

You're the one claiming that I can't find Vanilla gameplay better than Legion because "raid rotation is simplistic", to which I details that in fact yes I prefer Vanilla gameplay because it's not just about rotations (which yes are more simplistic) but about the tons of other aspect of gameplay that existed then and have been removed now and that on top of that it's much more interesting outside instances. You entirely and completely ignore all that to just switch back to raids rotations and instanced content... Great listening here pal.

I mean i don't really care what you do, everyone plays game they want its just that i was luckier one with direction game took.

At least on this one we can agree, you're luckier about how the game (d)evolved than me.

[Kokolums]

Look around. It's plainly obvious that it's not just gaming moving in this direction, it's everything in society. Everyone has cell phones. Instagram. Twitter feeds. Snapchat. Instant gratification. Consumers want what they want and they want it right away. It should be no surprise that game developers key in on these desires. (The most successful ones are those which resonate best with this philosophy. I mentioned them in my previous post.)

If you really think a game like Vanilla WoW -- which represents a near antithesis of these societal trends -- would be anything other than large scale business suicide in today's gaming climate, it's not me who needs to prove anything. You're clinically insane.

Absolutely not. Diablo 1, released in 1996, was instant gratification. You didnt even need to play the game. There was no client/server model used, so everyone just hacked the game files to give themselves godly gear, then ran into the catacombs and one shot diablo. Everyone thought the game was a joke but everyone did it. It was lame. It was horrible. It was stupid. Out of the ashes of instant gratification came diablo 2 and wow, which had a client server model to force you to actually play the game. In came concepts like gating and gear checks to slow you down. This was INFINITY superior to what had come before.

I dont think you understand gamers. They have no self control. They WILL use whatever they can to beat a video game even if it will ruin the game. They will use hacks and bots. They WILL demand gear checks, gates, etc be removed for a variety of bad reasons (outdated mechanics, quality of life, societal trends etc) but you arent supposed to listen to them or will ruin the game. We know this because of the disaster that was diablo 1.

Your philosophy would just result into another diablo 1 disaster. Where everyone can finish the game easily and then they look around and say wow is too easy. Its lame". And quit

[Belisaurio]

Definitely.

He knows what an MMO is about compared to the instant gratification, teleportation menus, content avoiding players that write posts that World of Warcraft should become more and more a solo game.

+1 with that.

[Orangetai420]

I like Jeff where he is now, on the OW team. WoW is an older game and doesn't need his talent as much as a new IP.

I think OW is a fantastic game and am eager to see what the team has in store for us.

[Relapses]

However, I think the fact that vanilla wow is tremendously SOCIAL with vibrant in-game communities would totally overwhelm those negatives and a vanilla wow server released today would grow to 20 million + subs. The reason is the PRIMARY appeal is the social factor.

What drugs are you on? The game hit market saturation in WotLK with 12M subs. If you honestly think reverting all of the QoL changes and making the game LESS accessible is somehow going to make the game hit 20M subs, I want some of whatever you're doing.

Sigh.

1) I never said there wasn't.
2) QUOTE ONE.

I could spend a few hours writing up google analytics and shit but frankly this discussion isn't worth it. Either choose to believe what I'm saying or continue living in the parallel universe the guy I quoted above you is in.

[Jngizu]

Kinda agree on everything except your take on Legion.
Best gameplay ? Seriously ? It's the WORST I've ever witnessed in the game, how can you not only like it but even praise it is beyond me 0_o
(well, at least we agree on the writing)

I mean, I could understand someone saying a class was more fun in any expac starting from cata but the 3 before that, gameplay-wise were pretty horrible compared to what we have today. Sure I miss Cata's Arms for example, but I'm never going to miss any spec from Vanilla.

Also important to note that I'm talking about gameplay in MM raiding and high Mythic+. Leveling up gameplay, I don't really care much. It has always been pretty boring for me.

[potis]

Finally, Vanilla allowed to actually play outside instances. Legion has intricate raid encounters, and if you rise high enough in Mythic+ things can become hairy, but leave these two places and the gameplay is shitty and poor as hell, as you can basically spam 1 like in the video you deride, and get everything done. Fighting one regular mob in outside content in Vanilla was more challenging and required more diverse gameplay than facerolling an entire "heroic" dungeon is in Legion (which is not to say it was especially challenging, rather to point just how low Legion has fallen).
My entire leveling experience with my rogue has basically been "Mutilate, Envenom, next mob". My entire leveling experience with my monk has been "Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick, next mob". As someone would say : "Look at all the action and immersive gameplay go."

.

What are you talking about?

Leveling or quests was always the same, it scales with gear, IRL Intelligence and actually knowing the capabilities of your class.

I always level as Prot after TBC since it doesnt lose Health, can pull a whole quest at the same time and cleave it down literally 10-20 mobs, while Fury/Arms leveling cant do that, or well they can but got to rest afterwards or use a big CD and wait another minute or two to do it again.

TBC i leveled as Arms, and didnt have a problem either, but at the same time i was in full Naxx/AQ40 gear and i knew how to play my class, 1 shotting every mob, WHAT AMAZING LEVELING,

It literally was Charge-->Mortal Strike + Heroic Strike-->Did either crit, of course it did, i am running around with 40% crit chance with Axes-->Next mob.

Vanilla leveling of course was different, you did not have the gear to 1 shot everything, and then RAIDS CAME, guess what happened then?

I literally couldnt care if Alliance players were there or not, i cleaved everything down equally, its called "too much gear" for Vanilla standards, you know how fun it is cleaving down 10 level 50's along with the skeleton mobs in WPL cause i was looking for something? Very fun.

Players without knowledge about the capabilities of their character is what you are describing, not "difficulty" during leveling.

[Akka]

I mean, I could understand someone saying a class was more fun in any expac starting from cata but the 3 before that, gameplay-wise were pretty horrible compared to what we have today.

You mean the exact opposite surely ?
Gameplay in WoD and especially Legion was completely dumbed down, WotLK had good rotations but removed the whole threat and resource management aspect and introduced the lolAoE faceroll plus the constant homogeneization of classes...

Also important to note that I'm talking about gameplay in MM raiding and high Mythic+. Leveling up gameplay, I don't really care much. It has always been pretty boring for me.

That would certainly go a long way toward explaining our differences. Still, Legion gameplay is pretty simplistic in that regard too (the pruning leave a lot to be desired), the "class fantasy" has gutted them of their personality and instead fragmented them into 36 half-classes which ironically feel more or less the same (never there has been so much superficial variety in the game, never there has been so little core variety) and, again, the gameplay concentrates entirely on doing rotations and movements - I miss threat and mana management.

---

TBC i leveled as Arms, and didnt have a problem either, but at the same time i was in full Naxx/AQ40 gear and i knew how to play my class, 1 shotting every mob, WHAT AMAZING LEVELING

I literally couldnt care if Alliance players were there or not, i cleaved everything down equally, its called "too much gear" for Vanilla standards, you know how fun it is cleaving down 10 level 50's along with the skeleton mobs in WPL cause i was looking for something? Very fun.

So far, you're describing how Legion is, except you don't need to actually have insane gear or fight people 10 levels below yours - it's become baseline to the game. Hence simplistic and boring gameplay outside instances.

[Deleted]

I like how he lied his ass off there about the "1% Myth.", or dismisses it by showing numbers for entry level raid content and didn't actually give percentages. The truth of the matter is that people get caught up in how few people saw Naxx but never realize that most raiders never saw beyond Molten Core, most raiders never saw beyond Karazhan/ZA, most raiders never saw beyond the complete and total faceroll entry tier of WLK, same with Cata. It wasn't until LFR that raid participation skyrocketed, and again when SoO Flex was released. And the reason that raid participation and completion is so high today is that everything from LFR all the way up to Heroic is complete and total faceroll, with Mythic being the real challenge. And do you know how many guilds actually ever complete mythic raids? Yeah, it's still abysmally low. His design philosophy wasn't healthy for raiding.

A lot of the excruciatingly painful experiences in early WoW that were holdovers from previous MMOs and that are now gone were Kaplan's ideas. The man is a dinosaur, and until he can show that he's learned from the past 12 years of MMO development, that MMOs are more mainstream now and not a super niche thing like EverCrack, I don't want him anywhere near an MMO, especially WoW.

It was healthy since people who managed to down MC but nothing else, had a goal to move to another raid and thus wanting to improve themselves and got motivated to move forwards and start getting better. Atealst that moddel is way better than the wotlk forwards spoonfeeding epics to keyboard turners. But maybe thats just me.

[Jngizu]

You mean the exact opposite surely ?
Gameplay in WoD and especially Legion was completely dumbed down, WotLK had good rotations but removed the whole threat and resource management aspect and introduced the lolAoE faceroll plus the constant homogeneization of classes...

That would certainly go a long way toward explaining our differences. Still, Legion gameplay is pretty simplistic in that regard too (the pruning leave a lot to be desired), the "class fantasy" has gutted them of their personality and instead fragmented them into 36 half-classes which ironically feel more or less the same (never there has been so much superficial variety in the game, never there has been so little core variety) and, again, the gameplay concentrates entirely on doing rotations and movements - I miss threat and mana management.

Threat and mana management should definitely come back. I also agree that they pruned a bit too much certain classes, like Demos. Overall I still think Legion has amazing gameplay across the board. Some specs are a bit too easy to play to my liking but some are more interesting.

Although to be fair, I was wrong, SoO was probably the pinnacle of WoW in terms of gameplay. Well, at least when you had some gear for some of them (hey fury). But everything pre-cata was a joke gameplay-wise. Dunno how you can disagree with that. Only tanks, maybe, were more interesting. But again, I feel it wasn't thanks to their amazing skills but how shitty threat was designed back then (which isn't contrary with my previous statement btw, threat should be something Tanks have to deal with, but pre-cata was just badly coded and designed).

[Akka]

Threat and mana management should definitely come back. I also agree that they pruned a bit too much certain classes, like Demos. Overall I still think Legion has amazing gameplay across the board. Some specs are a bit too easy to play to my liking but some are more interesting.

Although to be fair, I was wrong, SoO was probably the pinnacle of WoW in terms of gameplay. Well, at least when you had some gear for some of them (hey fury). But everything pre-cata was a joke gameplay-wise. Dunno how you can disagree with that. Only tanks, maybe, were more interesting.

Tanks and healing were definitely much more interesting, because of threat and mana management. I'm trying to tank with my warrior these days, and gawd it's just utterly shitty boring. I don't have to do anything to have the boss glued to me, and I have no debuff to keep on it, so I just do some terribly boring DPS pseudo-rotation with using survivability CD from time to time the only thing that actually makes me feel like a tank. Somewhat. Blegh.

As for DPS... we probably have played rather different classes, because I don't see what Legion has that is better than pre-Cata. Assa is more or less the same, fire mage I'm struggling to even notice difference. Warrior is vastly simpler in Arms, Prot is just garbage...
All buffs have been removed, all debuffs have been removed, postures and stances have been removed, movements don't really feel they are linked to an actual class anymore (I mean, rogues "backstab" is now only used in Subtletly, it's been downgraded to just a fucking "stab" that does shit damage and is a filler, only does a bit more damage from the back but can actually be used from the front, how does it feel rogue at all ?).

No, I really don't see how Legion gameplay is an actual improvement, even if we only compare it to WotLK which already did away with threat and mana management :-/

But again, I feel it wasn't thanks to their amazing skills but how shitty threat was designed back then (which isn't contrary with my previous statement btw, threat should be something Tanks have to deal with, but pre-cata was just badly coded and designed).

Threat coding hasn't changed in the slightest, tanks just have a ridiculous bonus to threat. And I don't really see how you can say it was "badly designed" if it made the game actually more interesting.

[Pua]

Either choose to believe what I'm saying or continue living in the parallel universe the guy I quoted above you is in.

This is why our conversation is over. You're, quite literally, imagining that I said or implied things and, when corrected, just repeat yourself. It's almost as if you have a single conclusion, and will bridge any commentary to it as expediently as possible.

Peace.

[Jngizu]

Tanks and healing were definitely much more interesting, because of threat and mana management. I'm trying to tank with my warrior these days, and gawd it's just utterly shitty boring. I don't have to do anything to have the boss glued to me, and I have no debuff to keep on it, so I just do some terribly boring DPS pseudo-rotation with using survivability CD from time to time the only thing that actually makes me feel like a tank. Somewhat. Blegh.

As for DPS... we probably have played rather different classes, because I don't see what Legion has that is better than pre-Cata. Assa is more or less the same, fire mage I'm struggling to even notice difference. Warrior is vastly simpler in Arms, Prot is just garbage...
All buffs have been removed, all debuffs have been removed, postures and stances have been removed, movements don't really feel they are linked to an actual class anymore (I mean, rogues "backstab" is now only used in Subtletly, it's been downgraded to just a fucking "stab" that does shit damage and is a filler, only does a bit more damage from the back but can actually be used from the front, how does it feel rogue at all ?).

No, I really don't see how Legion gameplay is an actual improvement, even if we only compare it to WotLK which already did away with threat and mana management :-/

How is Arms easier? Like, I mean seriously? And fire mage, I can't even start. Vanilla was just spam Fireball, that's it. I get that you love Vanilla that much, but saying classes pre-cata were hard is just a lie. Or we're talking about different level of plays. WotLK was basically spam everything as mana was infinite as heal. Every class was easy as hell to play. Legion sure as hell hasn't the hardest gameplay we've seen, but it certainly is more challenging than anything pre-cata. Sure heals don't have to care about mana as much but they have to manage their raid CDs way way better than before. Get shitty heals on HM Gul'Dan and you will have a bad time.

As for tanks, try MM+15 and tell me it's easy. Raids are pretty much a joke though I agree (for tanks).

As for stances, yeah they have been removed but anyway, everyone used macros, so they were useless. Gameplay is more engaging now. It could be a bit more complex I agree, but at the same time, Blizzard decided to somewhat simplify the classes as a way to make the bosses harder. Can't say i have to complain. Sure, MM EN was kind of easy, but NH is an amazing raid. If you think it's easy, well I don't know what to say anymore, you would just be trolling at that point.

[Akka]

How is Arms easier? Like, I mean seriously? And fire mage, I can't even start. Vanilla was just spam Fireball, that's it. I get that you love Vanilla that much, but saying classes pre-cata were hard is just a lie.

I was comparing to WotLK versions here. WotLK is pre-Cata, right ?

Legion sure as hell hasn't the hardest gameplay we've seen, but it certainly is more challenging than anything pre-cata.

Which spec ? Because TBC prot or affliction is certainly much more challenging and interesting than any spec I've tested in Legion so far (admitedly I've not tested that many, but that's precisely because classes are pretty boring to play and don't feel really varied or engaging).

As for stances, yeah they have been removed but anyway, everyone used macros, so they were useless. Gameplay is more engaging now.

That's certainly not an argument I can get behind. Changing stances had drawback, took a GCD, and each stance had only select abilities available, so it certainly added depth and complexity compared to simply clicking an ability.

It could be a bit more complex I agree, but at the same time, Blizzard decided to somewhat simplify the classes as a way to make the bosses harder. Can't say i have to complain. Sure, MM EN was kind of easy, but NH is an amazing raid. If you think it's easy, well I don't know what to say anymore, you would just be trolling at that point.

I don't see how the game is more interesting with making gameplay more boring so the bosses are harder.
Actually, I don't see why a boss harder means that gameplay should be simplified. What's the link between both ?
As for the gratuitous attack and strawman, was that really necessary ?