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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by AbortedGodFetus View Post
    Don't we already do that for our foreign policy under Obama?
    Never intentionally. And it is also a war crime if done so.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    So.... if he orders the military and the intelligence agencies to start committing crimes against humanity on the American people, you want them to obey like obedient little drones? The concept of people in these positions operating both within the law and following their conscience is something that most rational people would consider a good thing.
    That is a huge "If" there.....

  3. #223
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by AbortedGodFetus View Post
    Don't we already do that for our foreign policy under Obama?
    Nah.
    There is just rather indiscriminate killing of bystanders with drones.
    Some of them are statistically speaking relatives i suppose.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Never intentionally. And it is also a war crime if done so.
    I want to highlight the importance of this distinction before someone elides over it - intent matters a lot. While collateral damage is an inevitable and terrible consequence of deciding to pursue policies of eliminating terrors and other enemies of state abroad, it is very different from saying, "we will kill your children". The distinction between "you aren't safe because you hide among children" and "we will kill your children as punishment" is enormous.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexw View Post
    That dossier had absolutely nothing to do with US intelligence agencies. It was written by the ex-head of the British intelligence services Russia bureau, while working as a private sector contractor for Republican and Democrat opposition research. The only reason it got into the hands of the FBI was because this ex-MI6 agent obtained information from his contacts that he thought was so alarming, that Trumps election would endanger western security (and he was correct on that front), and as a result he was duty bound to pass it on. Moreover, your suggestion that it was somehow fabricated is wrong. Large sections of it have now been proven to be correct. The rest we don't know about but that large sections are now known to be correct, lends credence to the fact that the rest is also.
    You do know the locations of some of the people supposedly in Russia (at that time) are a matter of public record?
    A public record that has them at other places.

  6. #226
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    You do know the locations of some of the people supposedly in Russia (at that time) are a matter of public record?
    A public record that has them at other places.
    Those wrong-facts are just evil Putinist Slavic magic wielded by the famed blood witch Baba Yaga. It is known!
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  7. #227
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I want to highlight the importance of this distinction before someone elides over it - intent matters a lot. While collateral damage is an inevitable and terrible consequence of deciding to pursue policies of eliminating terrors and other enemies of state abroad, it is very different from saying, "we will kill your children". The distinction between "you aren't safe because you hide among children" and "we will kill your children as punishment" is enormous.
    Such as deciding any military age male (18-65) is until proven otherwise, a combatant (and thus a valid military target) With a policy like that, who is surprised civilians die.
    Also in all seriousness, defining all 'military age males in a war zone' as combatants, IS a fucking war-crime.

  8. #228
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Such as deciding any military age male (18-65) is until proven otherwise, a combatant (and thus a valid military target) With a policy like that, who is surprised civilians die.
    Also in all seriousness, defining all 'military age males in a war zone' as combatants, IS a fucking war-crime.
    Hey, but as long as a nice PR campaign is done and the person enacting that policy is eloquently spoken or at least an acceptably establishment candidate it's fine, good and normal.

    See, Trump is a mean potty mouth, so when he does it it's 'totes bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Such as deciding any military age male (18-65) is until proven otherwise, a combatant (and thus a valid military target) With a policy like that, who is surprised civilians die.
    Also in all seriousness, defining all 'military age males in a war zone' as combatants, IS a fucking war-crime.
    I don't have strong feelings about the topic. I understand this position and am inclined to empathize with it, but I've never been interested enough to get really informed.

    My only point is that it's very different to have fuzzy definitions and to at least try to justify action than it is to just openly declare that you're going to engage in the killing of children as a deliberate matter of policy to punish their relatives.

  10. #230
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    is that not what Obama and Bush have both been ACTIVELY doing across the Middle East and hasn't US foreign policy been more or less a vast slaughterfest for the Middle East for half a century?

    So, the crime of Trump is he said allowed a crude version of what we already do?
    Whataboutism does not work when i'm not even American, let alone a democrat.
    I'm not even on the right wing.
    'm

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    No, actually I don't have to do any of those things. Yay freedom! *does a dance while burning a Trump effigy* what does my freedom offend you? Tough shit! I had to listen to your kind bitch for EIGHT FUCKING YEARS!!. You think I'm going to sit down and behave? When your side accused my preferred leader as a secret-agent-muslim-communist-kenyan out to destroy America?

    No, you can shove your peace love and happiness right up your goddamed ass. You spent 8 years bawling like a baby, doing everything you could to tear down everything we wanted to accomplish, even impeach the president on NO FUCKING GROUNDS AT ALL.

    So no. Go blow yourself.

    Also, say hello to my ignore list.
    The sheer irony of this has me grinning like a cat.

    Much like the seasons... times change.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    The sheer irony of this has me grinning like a cat.

    Much like the seasons... times change.
    I'm sure you'll be ignoring these forums when Trump gets the boot this year.

  13. #233
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Whataboutism does not work when i'm not even American, let alone a democrat.
    I'm not even on the right wing.
    'm
    Yes "Whataboutism" I mean so far one has talked where as others have destabilized actual countries and gotten thousands ACTUALLY killed. But yes its just "Whataboutism."
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'm sure you'll be ignoring these forums when Trump gets the boot this year.
    I doubt it. I come here because people disagree with me. I am just savoring this rich hypocrisy. Look at how readily he abondons everything to crawl into the mud and wrestle with the people he claims to hate.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    Whataboutism does not work when i'm not even American, let alone a democrat.
    I'm not even on the right wing.
    'm
    Ninja mastah-sensei, teach me how to deflect as good as you, Gilrak-sama!

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    I REALLY hit a nerve there innit?
    I just tend to correct divisive statements about absolutes that have little root in reality is all. Not that it will have much effect in the post-truth world:P

  17. #237
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    I doubt it. I come here because people disagree with me. I am just savoring this rich hypocrisy. Look at how readily he abondons everything to crawl into the mud and wrestle with the people he claims to hate.
    I play to win. Ethics and morality were never a concern in that matter. They never have been. You assume two falsehoods:
    1: that I'm a liberal
    2: I have a moral compunction to take the high road.

    1 does not imply 2 and 1 is false anyway.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  18. #238
    Stood in the Fire ShadowofVashj's Avatar
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    The President isn't supposed to be this monolithic figure in American Politics... oh sure there are times when they are made out to be, but that is not by design. The President is just the chief executive officer fulfilling a function to keep a giant complex machine working. He is just another cogwheel in the gears. Sure Washington might have been an exception of sorts, but he was the first president and had to really break new ground and people were relying on his leadership and strength in the early years to get on solid footing. And you can point out Lincoln, and FDR as presidents who had to sort of "rise above" due to extreme circumstances for sure, but in general Americans should not be beholden to a president or specific person, or even a party (although people naturally congregate to others who are like minded). No REAL Americans place loyalty to their fellow countrymen and the Constitution. There's a reason why "We the People" is such a powerful phrase here... it is the core essence of our philosophy. WE, ALL OF US, TOGETHER, not just one orange tinged man.

    At that ridiculous rally last night, (and somehow now we have to campaign for re-election 1 month into the job, as well as campaign before we even have someone leading the NSA??), you have this guy who comes out and says he salutes a cardboard cut out of Trump every day. Are you kidding me? That is like the most unAmerican thing you can do.

    The whole reason America has the Supreme Court (life long office post) and other independent and apolitical agencies is to protect from something exactly like this. Loyalty to country first above all else. Just because people voted you into office doesn't mean you get to wipe your ass with the Constitution. We still have no idea about Trump's health, about his financial entanglements, and a host of other yuge question marks that haven't been answered.

    People wanted to swing the axe on Hillary for having private email servers or lying to the American people. Well that's all well and good but that axe swings both ways.

  19. #239
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    "He burned our crops and set a plague unto our houses!" "He did?" "No! but are we going to wait around until he does!?"
    You're leaving out the part where the figurative person you're talking about threatened to do those things.
    Anything worth doing is worth over-doing. Moderation's for cowards.

  20. #240
    Immortal Zandalarian Paladin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    We must have been watching different Press conferences this week. Can you imagine FDR, Eisenhower, or Ronald Reagan acting like that? Donald Trump embarrassed himself and found new was to defile the office he holds.

    And don't say a fucking word about Andrew Jackson. I've had enough of the Trumpkins using the Saturday Morning Cartoon of Andrew Jackson as an excuse for President Watersport's unacceptable behavior. Andrew Jackson deftly navigated the Nullification Crisis and ended up victorious in it, and carefully cultivated political ties to build the Democratic Party.

    Both are not ok. I thought Trump was an idiot when he said he wouldn't answer CNN back a few weeks ago. Today, I think that CNN answer to Trump's is worse.

    Jackson was a builder and maintainer of institution who was an actual war-time leader before becoming President.
    Donald Trump is a political arsonists who detonates every bridge he finds, and talks in a hyperbolic language of war (or what a child thinks war is) despite being most successful as an entertainer and real estate businessman.

    I'll say again: Trump supporters show themselves time and time again to be people of low... practically non-existent... standards. Spoiler Alert: It's okay to say "I like the guy, I want him to succeed... but this shit is unacceptable. Presidents must be better than this."
    Quite frankly no. I'm not fine with the medias, I'm not fine with Trump, I'm not fine with the people's reaction and I'm not fine with the aura of hysteria that fester worldwide right now.

    This week's press conference exposed two things: How the media's twisted what Trump said during the conference (which I watched live for most of it, and was honestly appaled by how the Medias twisted it), and how Trump belittles the medias.

    Trump's not what you're painting him to be. You want that to be true, because I guess you're genuinely afraid of that. Considering how caustic you were during the elections, that's my guess, but I could be wrong.

    Plus, yes, I disagree with many things Trump says and Trump does. Fundamentally, that's bound to happen when I consider myself a strong left-leaning individual. But what he pulls is acceptable. It's not good, but it's acceptable.

    The day where he'll gut LGBT rights, the day where he'll imprison people sorely on the color of their skins, the day where Trump will disregard women as inferior, the day where Trump will declare WW3, the day where Trump basically becomes a monster, I will be body and soul against him.

    However, stop deluding yourself as though it's happening. It's not. Illegal immigrants are illegal -- I am thoroughly against deporting those that are but in name civilians of the US, but if they're incarcerated, I'm fine with it. I am thoroughly against discriminating against women, but quotes taken out of context that happened 12 years ago don't really makes me afraid. I am thoroughly against LGBT intimidation - and likewise, against his government removing the bathroom law - but he's not putting anyone in danger, he's not removing LGBT weddings and he's certainly not homophobic. And frankly, it's time the madness stops.
    Google Diversity Memo
    Learn to use critical thinking: https://youtu.be/J5A5o9I7rnA

    Political left, right similarly motivated to avoid rival views
    [...] we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism)..

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