This is why Legion is so bad

[Thage]

It's not just on the raiders to pace themselves. Raids are being designed around people having a certain amount of traits and gear to kill bosses, especially at the mythic level. When Blizz designs something like this, it creates the reality that people need to put in a certain amount of work to be ready for that. Now add on that some people need/want offspecs to change between fights as needed (more/less heals/tank/mdps/rdps) that ends up doubling to sometimes tripling the work needed to be ready for these bosses. This inevitably causes burnout. You might not see it as much at normal levels, but going into heroic/mythic it is much more prevalent.
One can argue that mythic races don't mean anything, but they do to the people competing. To do anything to fix this issue, Blizz needs to scale back "kill checks" on bosses or put caps on what can be accomplished each week. I am more in favor of tuning down, but that's my personal view and realize the issues that can come from it.

Designing the fights to be more forgiving in terms of assumed AP versus executing mechanics (like what seems to have been done with Mythic Nighthold, as some of the Mythic racers didn't have maxed-out Artifacts) more or less solves that issue; alternatively the Mythic race slows down (remember when some raids took several months to down on then-Heroic?) which would be the ideal solution, to me, and seems to be the way things are self-adjusting on the raid community's end if the "grind all day and all night" guilds are starting to burn out.

I think guilds are starting to adjust away from the breakneck pace WoD enabled and I get the feeling it was intentional on Blizzard's end for just that reason, because if the Mythic race is slowed down it gives them time to work on the next tier so it's more polished (remember they pushed back Nighthold because they didn't feel EN had enough screen time, to avoid another Ulduar situation). Time and 7.2/3 will tell, I suppose.

[Deleted]

leaving questions in the air over which spec would actually be good

That's like the last 5 years of being a warlock.

[TheFirstOnes]

Blizzard removed everything that made players be able to stand out from others, they've reduced everyone else down to your level of play, where you need to be handheld by blizzard with autobubble, and I'm the one who needs to "get good"? :^)

Kind of. I had an auto bubble against a warrior, and I still lost....


Yet, he was a good pvper...so..yeah....

[Heladys]

Legion isn't bad, OP is bad.

[Polybius]

Yeah it does. Stopped reading there. You don't know a thing.

- - - Updated - - -



The people saying Legion is the best expansion are just the vocal minority.

Same can be said of those who say it's the worst expansion.

It's not the best but certainly not the worst. Not by a long shot.

[Eapoe]

Designing the fights to be more forgiving in terms of assumed AP versus executing mechanics (like what seems to have been done with Mythic Nighthold, as some of the Mythic racers didn't have maxed-out Artifacts) more or less solves that issue; alternatively the Mythic race slows down (remember when some raids took several months to down on then-Heroic?) which would be the ideal solution, to me, and seems to be the way things are self-adjusting on the raid community's end if the "grind all day and all night" guilds are starting to burn out.

I think guilds are starting to adjust away from the breakneck pace WoD enabled and I get the feeling it was intentional on Blizzard's end for just that reason, because if the Mythic race is slowed down it gives them time to work on the next tier so it's more polished (remember they pushed back Nighthold because they didn't feel EN had enough screen time, to avoid another Ulduar situation). Time and 7.2/3 will tell, I suppose.

Other issues arise such as Blizz throwing everything WITH the kitchen sink into the pot. Adding more points per weapon trait, adding completely new traits, another post mentioned that there will be a never ending trait that works like D3's paragon system. This becomes overwhelming to progression raiders while appearing fantastic for the casual playerbase.
Keep in mind these people probably thought they were done with the grind and could do the things they want to do. If that's random WoW stuff, just logging on for raids, etc, they had put in a shit ton of work to reach that point. Then Blizz goes "Oh no, you can't be done, here's all this new stuff to keep you from doing anything else."
I, personally, went casual for these reasons. I used to be in a progression based guild. I played during all my free time away from work just to stay competitive and not hold back my guild. I was missing out on so many other things...other games, hanging out with friends and family, life in general. I burnt out as my life was passing by. I understand that's my fault for choosing this playstyle, but it's the playstyle made by the designers that we adhere to so we can be progression based. Simply saying I'm not blameless, but I'm not solely to blame as well.
Something as small as capping the weapons (nothing past 34) and removing the RNG of legendaries, and this would appease many people. Keep the gear scaling from m+/dungeons/worlds so people have something to strive for if they choose, but that's what the game is missing, choice of how to play. Right now, it's do this or don't, all or nothing.

[shoegazing]

When the fuck has the game ever had more than ~4-5 button rotations though?

When did that meme start and where is it coming from?

Yeah coz 12 buttons rotations are so much fun.

What makes you think that the only buttons in a spellbook have to be rotational?

The complaint about Legion is that they pruned damn near everything that wasn't a part of the dps rotation.

There is more to this game than PvEing at your dps meters / PvEing at bosses / PvEing at another play because most skillful class mechanics and utility was removed

[Hctaz]

By putting caps, firstly you do make any player who cares about their character to be forced to farm all the cap every week, even if the cap gets increased each week. Everyone wants to be as powerful as possible, as fast as possible, so they can provide the best possible performance to their raid, arena, etc.
Secondly, when someone would reach the cap, there would no reason to do anything else other than the current raid, making it a wod with few more grinding for the cap.

Caps are bad, they kill the freedom of playing as much as you like and still progress your character.

Problem is that there is ALREADY a cap. It's 54 traits. If you aren't at 54 traits right now and progressing on mythic content you're a failure. If they implemented an artificial cap then you know how much AP to gather every week to be optimal. Right now it's just subjective.

[shoegazing]

His comment LITERALLY talks about rotations though, so I don't see your point.

Because that is all that these PvE obsessed, spreadsheet obsessed, damage meter obsessed, class balance obsessed developers spend their time on.

The class that I played for 12 years got completely gutted of everything that made it interesting and awesome.. It was amazing. But apparently it wasn't stupid easy enough for someone to smash their 12345 with in LFR so Blizzard ruined it.

[barackohmama]

Apart from the Xrealm bullshit that has been going on for ages now, Legion is the best expansion since TBC since you actually have stuff to do. Much prefer it to warlords of raidlogging.

[grexly75]

This is such a stupid argument. Someone can dislike something without thinking they could "do better". I hated Nic Cage in Ghost Rider, I can't make a "better" film, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. People can have opinions without being experts and artisans on the situation.


Also, people who say "nowadays"/"now days"/"nowdays" make me sick. You can get away without saying it for every imaginable sentence, I've done it my whole life, and it never makes the user look more intelligent (I'm assuming that's the goal, otherwise you sound like an old fogey).


That being said, Legion is good, but I agree with AP being trash (don't have a plan for how I would've "done better", sorry); it seems that if you get left behind, you stay left behind -- at least in my experience.

Yes I suppose it is but can't be helped from a crusty 48 year old player.. Can say that AP was a test by Blizz of a somewhat currency new system that is so so in that until the catch up mechanism it was hard for a returning player to catch up with friends.. And on artifact weapons are a new system that takes out the RNG of hoping to get a better weapon..

Either way will be interesting to see what Blizz think up next xpac and then the influx of whine that comes when people get into it..

[Jastall]

Thats how the ENTIRE mythic scene is

Why do plebs have this misconception that only 5 world first guilds go all out on min maxing.

almost every guild that is going to kill Gul'dan before ToS. probably had or was close to 54 traits before it's release.

And they compose what, 1% of the playerbase? 2% if you squint? Blizzard shouldn't design content solely around the hardcores, and this is coming from someone who might not be Cutting Edge, but began raiding Mythic NH this week.

[anaxie]

And they compose what, 1% of the playerbase? 2% if you squint? Blizzard shouldn't design content solely around the hardcores, and this is coming from someone who might not be Cutting Edge, but began raiding Mythic NH this week.

And yet they do design content solely aimed towards them.

You might want to get used to it since it's been that way since Vanilla considering the 1% may be small but they are more important than the other 99% for maintaing the health of the entire game.

Yes yes you'll wave it away. I don't expect you to have to intellect to understand why.

[Nakotsu]

This is an inability to think at a grade school level. A cap does not require that one do everything in some fixed period of time. This was a failure of previous systems because they were badly implemented and this was thoroughly explained to them multiple times through multiple expansions.

Meanwhile tons of people have pointed out you can just increase the cap every week so anyone can catch up and they've never once acknowledged that this solution exists.

Blizzard's WoW team is one which refuses to innovate and refuses to use basic reasoning to come up with solutions to what are ultimately very simple problems. This is why Legion is complete garbage. All the talent left and what's left is fucking Ion Hazzikostas and people even dumber than he is.



This is trying to awkwardly and idiotically implement a cap by exponentially increasing your gains but also exponentially increasing the requirements, you know, rather than.. just putting an increasing cap on it and making the gains linear. You can tell Ion missed the day in what.. 7th grade where the teacher explained logarithms. You just take the log of their exponential plot and *gasp* you get a linear system with an effective cap. Except that's not all. This approach also has serious problems. You're indefinitely behind until you reach the max AK level, and the change in 7.1.5 didn't actually fix this. There is no "catch up" because you create a gap that can't be overcome because it is time based, which actually creates an expected quota which the other solutions don't. So this "solution" retains literally every single problem Ion has claimed they wanted to avoid. Additionally, the 35 -> 54 wasn't a "problem" because it required very little time to do relative to 1->35, so in fact removing the linear tail at the end is making it worse by dramatically increasing how much time it will take to be competitive.

Blizzard: failure to innovate. No reasoning capabilities. And absolutely the worst listening and communication skills of any consumer-facing business shy of Google. Why is Legion terrible? Unmatched incompetence and an elitist attitude by people too stupid to get a job at a company that isn't net 0-growth for nearing a decade.

My answer was going to be simple... The Devs SUCK!

[Jastall]

And yet they do design content solely aimed towards them.

You might want to get used to it since it's been that way since Vanilla considering the 1% may be small but they are more important than the other 99% for maintaing the health of the entire game.

Yes yes you'll wave it away. I don't expect you to have to intellect to understand why.

You seem angry. Maybe lay off the pointless insults, take a step back and realize that, while Blizzard can design Mythic fights for hardcore raiders, they can't design entire game systems around them. I made my peace with the fact that raiding higher difficulties doesn't make me special a long time ago.

[Makorus]

Because that is all that these PvE obsessed, spreadsheet obsessed, damage meter obsessed, class balance obsessed developers spend their time on.

The class that I played for 12 years got completely gutted of everything that made it interesting and awesome.. It was amazing. But apparently it wasn't stupid easy enough for someone to smash their 12345 with in LFR so Blizzard ruined it.

Well, sorry, but PvE is the main part of the game.

You cant expect them to balance the game around PvP. It's like saying they will balance the game around the Darkmoon Faire.

[shoegazing]

Well, sorry, but PvE is the main part of the game.

You cant expect them to balance the game around PvP. It's like saying they will balance the game around the Darkmoon Faire.

Again with this word balance? Who said anything about balance? Balance is not the complaint.

[Arainie]

Legion is what? Legion is amazing IMO!

I don't agree with your ideas at all. If there was a cap easily obtainable by running what, 10 Mythics a week I'd still just cap and stop logging on outside of raids. Now there's a reason to play just as much as you like, and while the top few thousand players in guilds racing for PvE content might find requirements annoying it's ultimately their choice to pursue such content. A much better fix on their part is to combat split raiding removing the need for 1-6 extra alts (with 35-54 traits) that it brings.

And they compose what, 1% of the playerbase? 2% if you squint? Blizzard shouldn't design content solely around the hardcores, and this is coming from someone who might not be Cutting Edge, but began raiding Mythic NH this week.

Counting the 10k (10,6k but surely 600 of them are gone by now) guilds that have killed at least 3 Mythic bosses this expansion, and an average guild size of 22 players to be generous, and assuming 7.5M subs (number completely guesstimated), we end up with the figure that a whopping 3% have actively participated in Mythic content. Add Heroic content to that and you arrive at 6-8% of the playerbase actively taking part in max level PvE raiding, and I wouldn't hesitate that normal mode is cleared by at least 10-15% of the playerbase. Then further assume that a large portion (10-20%) don't even reach max level or stick to leveling and world quests in general due to time constaints, and that a fairly large portion only do PvP and you quickly realize that the amount of players who raid actively is honestly not that small anymore. You can't call 1/4 - 1/7 of the playerbase depending on how you see it special snowflakes anymore (normal raiding and above).

[deniter]

You seem angry. Maybe lay off the pointless insults, take a step back and realize that, while Blizzard can design Mythic fights for hardcore raiders, they can't design entire game systems around them. I made my peace with the fact that raiding higher difficulties doesn't make me special a long time ago.

Well, they made WoW more accessible in Cataclysm.

In vanilla and TBC content 1% was for hardcores and 99% for average gamers.

In Cataclysm and on 1% is for hardcores and 99% for rookie gamers.

Problem solved!?

[ls-]

Well, they made WoW more accessible in Cataclysm.

In vanilla and TBC content 1% was for hardcores and 99% for average gamers.

In Cataclysm and on 1% is for hardcores and 99% for rookie gamers.

Problem solved!?

They made WoW more accessible in TBC.

At launch they introduced LGF tool, but it's kinda underused, in 2.4 they removed attunements for BT, despite what some people w/ rose-tinted glasses like saying, pugging BT and many other raids right after clearing heroics became a thing.

Thanks to these changes quite many people who thought that almost everyone was more or less an OK player in WoW were shocked by the number of people who were outright bad at playing their classes, bad at handling various mechanics, etc. It's an eye-opening experience for many.