Greece economic woes worsen as IMF says greece should have left Eurozone

[Cybran]

The real villains are the people who were irresponsible in the first place. That's like blaming a bank for loaning to a family that couldn't really afford the house they wanted to buy. You are deflecting responsibility from the people who were wasting money.

The easy access to cheap loans artificially inflated the price of the house, artificially inflated the price of living and salaries. Without a decade of a financial bonanza that family wouldn't have bought that house.

The banks build a house on sand and when it fell apart they asked the tenants to repay back in full.

[Cyberowl]

That is a lie. You read TOTALY fake news
The referendum vote result was NO to EU deal. with HUGE margin against deal with the EU.
The result was NOT to stay.

The goverment said "Well people voted NO the deal, but no to the deal means leaving Eurozone, and people don't want that. So we turn the NO to a yes and make a deal anyway"

EU has a history of disregarding referendums (to be more accurate, working around them), like the true Democracy that it is....

The referendum was always closely tied to staying in the EU or not. Even the parties pushing for a NO to the deal advertised to it. Don't tell me what is fake news or not, I've been following them in 2015 and don't need your rubbish.

[caervek]

The referendum was always closely tied to staying in the EU or not. Even the parties pushing for a NO to the deal advertised to it. Don't tell me what is fake news or not, I've been following them in 2015 and don't need your rubbish.

You realise you're agreeing/repeating his point yeah?

[Cyberowl]

You realise you're agreeing/repeating his point yeah?

Look at what he quoted, I'll spare you the d'oh.

[Deleted]

I have to admit, I can't really think of anything that Greece would be capable of doing to somehow better themselves from their current position, by leaving the Eurozone. At best they could gain an independent currency that they could tweak, but seeing as they'd still be dealing largely with European nations they'd still have to adhere to their callings.

Out or in, Greece was always going to have serious issues, will continue to have serious issues and it will take time to stabilize it all.

[Aggrophobic]

Another anti-Germany thread. How unique, Cybran.

On opic, though: They are free to leave whenever they want. They still have to pay back the money they borrowed however. Nothing will change that.

[Noradin]

Lol what are you smoking? Pensions have more than halved, there are lot of new taxes everywhere, vat is 25%, basic salary starts at 380 euros..

Yes, and that is the wrong kind of cuts, that is the kind of cuts politicans implement to prove "cuts hurt the economy".

And btw. "pensions have more than halved"?
Didn't you propose just now to leave the Euro and have the currency crash, in other words get rid of all pensions?

Because that is how devaluating a currency works: it is automatic "austerity" forced on the poor with the illusion that the politicans couldn't possibly do anything to help them.

[schwarzkopf]

wut? lol characters

Almost all countries have debt owned by foreign creditors, e.g Australia will have a huge debt in US Dollars held by the US.
The debtor can vary - but most debt is held in US dollars.

SO - over the last year, our debt increased by 30% or so just because our dollar fell against the US dollar.

The US debt is primarily in USD, so whilst they still owe other countries - the debt remains free of huge variations via currency fluctuations.

With the US attempting to isolate itself from large scale financial deals (Trumpenomics), there will be a drift or surge away from the USD for international transactions. This means the US debt will gradually shift to non USD.

Then the next time the USD falls ...bang... GREECE.

[caervek]

On opic, though: They are free to leave whenever they want. They still have to pay back the money they borrowed however. Nothing will change that.

Would be funny if they just said "fine, we're leaving, anyone who we owe money can have Germany's WW2 debt to us in lieu of payment", would be interesting to see how it played out :P

[Noradin]

Or better yet, move to Russia, I hear they dont have any corruption and that everyone gets their fair share of the money putin hauls in from the massive gas industry.

Well he is preparing for that, that is he is trying to move his country and all those around it inside Russian borders.

[Independent voter]

Then the next time the USD falls ...bang... GREECE.

lol 10 characters

[d00mGuArD]

The referendum was always closely tied to staying in the EU or not. Even the parties pushing for a NO to the deal advertised to it. Don't tell me what is fake news or not, I've been following them in 2015 and don't need your rubbish.

AND THE PEOPLE VOTED NO with 61% +++

How can you claim people choose to stay????? Claiming total rubbish and then calling other people rubbish, does not make your claim less rubbish.

Here is a link to see the NO, in case you missed actual events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_...ferendum,_2015

[Noradin]

I have to admit, I can't really think of anything that Greece would be capable of doing to somehow better themselves from their current position, by leaving the Eurozone. At best they could gain an independent currency that they could tweak, but seeing as they'd still be dealing largely with European nations they'd still have to adhere to their callings.

They couldn't "tweak" it, because they do not have the funds.
It would crash. Thus all these pensions would be gone completely.
The only ones better of in that case would be those who are rich and have their money elsewhere already, and those who own the means of production.

Oh, and populist politicans. They could claim there was nothing they could have done, or worse claim they could do somehing if only they got free hand to implement their great plans for the greater good.

- - - Updated - - -

Would be funny if they just said "fine, we're leaving, anyone who we owe money can have Germany's WW2 debt to us in lieu of payment", would be interesting to see how it played out :P

No one would take them upon that.
Why would they accept imaginary assets as payment?

[Deleted]

They couldn't "tweak" it, because they do not have the funds.
It would crash. Thus all these pensions would be gone completely.
The only ones better of in that case would be those who are rich and have their money elsewhere already, and those who own the means of production.

Oh, and populist politicans. They could claim there was nothing they could have done, or worse claim they could do somehing if only they got free hand to implement their great plans for the greater good.

They could technically devalue it enough, to not run over the cliff and yet still spring up at least some amount of economic growth. But as I said, even that wouldn't be capable of solving their overwhelming problem, because they are still beholden to their lenders and the European market.

[schwarzkopf]

lol 10 characters

Decidedly unfunny to be honest.

[Noradin]

They could technically devalue it enough, to not run over the cliff and yet still spring up at least some amount of economic growth. But as I said, even that wouldn't be capable of solving their overwhelming problem, because they are still beholden to their lenders and the European market.

They would have to devalue it to a point where pensions would be effectively much lower than they are now, thus increasing wealth inequality.
I think that would make it worse while allowing the ones responsible to evade the blame and responsibility.

[Malacrass]

Interesting times ahead.

But don't worry, the money will keep flowing whether we like it or not.

It's election year in Germany and France, they can't afford to let Greece openly fall on its face in 2017. It would only confirm that all the money we spent was a wasted effort and that we will never see a cent of it again.

Greece leaving the Euro (monetary union) seems inevitable after, though. And honestly I see nothing wrong with that, give them back their old currency but keep all the other benefits, like free movement and free entry to the market.

[Cybran]

I think that would make it worse while allowing the ones responsible to evade the blame and responsibility.

The ones responsible are in the ECB headquarters counting their wads and looking for new opportunities to sqeeze Europe even more dry.

[Deleted]

They would have to devalue it to a point where pensions would be effectively much lower than they are now, thus increasing wealth inequality.
I think that would make it worse while allowing the ones responsible to evade the blame and responsibility.

You'll never get accountability for those responsible, because they are both the ones who crash it but also build it up again. Greece will have to suffer its pains, there is no solution that isn't going to hurt.

[Cybran]

Greece will have to suffer its pains, there is no solution that isn't going to hurt.

Why only them? German firms sold them materials and equipment financed by cheap loans. German pensioners benefited from the loans to Greek people. WHY is it that in the interconnected single economic space only 1 country has to carry the entire burden and misery?

They should have defaulted early and left all of europe in the state they are now.