Greece economic woes worsen as IMF says greece should have left Eurozone

[Deleted]

Why only them? German firms sold them materials and equipment financed by cheap loans. German pensioners benefited from the loans to Greek people. WHY is it that in the interconnected single economic space only 1 country has to carry the entire burden and misery?

They should have defaulted early and left all of europe in the state they are now.

Well we all carry the burden and misery, some of us simply were strong enough to not be particularly affected. And when one rides out a storm better than others, you are more easily capable of starting anew at the expense off others.

As for defaulting and leaving, Greece would essentially be no better off, because strangely enough fucking over trading partners and neighboring governments, tend to effect your capabilities of trade, deals and all those things that are positives to a growing economy.

[Glorious Leader]

It's the financial institution's responsibility to make the judgement if a loan is secure or not.

They didn't and they should have paid for their greed.

In point of fact if a bank makes a loan they know the creditor cant pay back this.is.called an odious debt or fraudelent conveyance.

[Ulmita]

Yes, and that is the wrong kind of cuts, that is the kind of cuts politicans implement to prove "cuts hurt the economy".

And btw. "pensions have more than halved"?
Didn't you propose just now to leave the Euro and have the currency crash, in other words get rid of all pensions?

Because that is how devaluating a currency works: it is automatic "austerity" forced on the poor with the illusion that the politicans couldn't possibly do anything to help them.

No no no. Thats the cuts that the Troika said should happen. Greece isn't in charge of its economy any more. What is this? 2007?

[Glorious Leader]

OK, but why exactly am I supposed to have any sympathy for the debtors?

Historically this situation is not without precedent. In the united states for example farmers were given loans only to have them called in before harvest and then theirs farms and livelyhoods taken away. Another good example was the czar taking out millions in debt in the name of russia just as the revolution was about to oust them.

These are examples of what is called odious debt. Debt taken through the creation of fraudulent conveyance that lenders knew couldnt be paid back.


http://michael-hudson.com/2015/07/wh...bt-is-illegal/

[Ulmita]

Well we all carry the burden and misery, some of us simply were strong enough to not be particularly affected. And when one rides out a storm better than others, you are more easily capable of starting anew at the expense off others.

As for defaulting and leaving, Greece would essentially be no better off, because strangely enough fucking over trading partners and neighboring governments, tend to effect your capabilities of trade, deals and all those things that are positives to a growing economy.

Listen bro,

There is a small issue with ethics here. Why do you keep crucifying a country which is known that it will only get worse? The debt projection is +100% up from what is now in 20 years or so.

It - is - not - getting - better.

How many generations should be lost in order for people to be satisfied?

[Theodarzna]

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2017/02/...euro-long-ago/



https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-unexpectedly

10 years of poverty and misery later. Will the ECB change it's stance on pointless interest payments or are the German creditors not satiated with enough blood yet?

But? But? Glorious EU is radiant Light unto the Nations and literally the greatest thing ever! /s

Germany has shown an incredibly unwillingness to learn from dumb ideas lately.

[caervek]

Why would they accept imaginary assets as payment?

But if Germany's debt to Greece is an imaginary asset then what is Greece's debt to Germany? Germany can't have it both ways.

[Independent voter]

Greece keeps the euro artificially low, that's why for every $2 we send Europe we get $1 back.

Why don't we form an economic union with Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Columbia, etc. The dollar would drop to 1/20th of its current value and our trade imbalance with Europe reversed.

[Deleted]

Listen bro,

There is a small issue with ethics here. Why do you keep crucifying a country which is known that it will only get worse? The debt projection is +100% up from what is now in 20 years or so.

It - is - not - getting - better.

How many generations should be lost in order for people to be satisfied?

I don't care, my own fucking childhood was in the worst economic crisis that this nation have seen in 200 years. It was cheaper to loan money and rely on inflation than to have a fucking job, having a job was worthless because it bought you nothing, we had 25-33 % unemployment in the youth, my parents broke their backs to afford food and commodities to me as a child.

So don't try this bleeding heart tactic, I lived it and we got fucking nothing in support and it took an entire generations woes and hardships to make Denmark the great place it is today.

[Ulmita]

I don't care, my own fucking childhood was in the worst economic crisis that this nation have seen in 200 years. It was cheaper to loan money and rely on inflation than to have a fucking job, having a job was worthless because it bought you nothing, we had 25-33 % unemployment in the youth, my parents broke their backs to afford food and commodities to me as a child.

So don't try this bleeding heart tactic, I lived it and we got fucking nothing in support and it took an entire generations woes and hardships to make Denmark the great place it is today.

I think you don't read good enough. THERE IS NO WAY OUT THE CRISIS. Not in 10000000 years. Debt will ONLY INCREASE.
Do you understand this or do you want me to explain you even more. Europe will NEED TO LOAN MONEY in order to GET THEIR LOANS BACK. It will only get worse as debt goes in the %300s of GDP.

[Theodarzna]

I don't care, my own fucking childhood was in the worst economic crisis that this nation have seen in 200 years. It was cheaper to loan money and rely on inflation than to have a fucking job, having a job was worthless because it bought you nothing, we had 25-33 % unemployment in the youth, my parents broke their backs to afford food and commodities to me as a child.

So don't try this bleeding heart tactic, I lived it and we got fucking nothing in support and it took an entire generations woes and hardships to make Denmark the great place it is today.

Okay, lets ask, how long do you intend to punish Greece then? Like is there an actual "Thats enough" point?

[Deleted]

I think you don't read good enough. THERE IS NO WAY OUT THE CRISIS. Not in 10000000 years. Debt will ONLY INCREASE.
Do you understand this or do you want me to explain you even more. Europe will NEED TO LOAN MONEY in order to GET THEIR LOANS BACK. It will only get worse as debt goes in the % 300s of GDP.

Then what do you propose? Because you are mentioning something that has been said before, around the year 1930.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, lets ask, how long do you intend to punish Greece then? Like is there an actual "Thats enough" point?

Punish? Sorry but Greece isn't exactly a noncontributory in this.

[Glorious Leader]

Then what do you propose? Because you are mentioning something that has been said before, around the year 1930.

Its very simple and our ancient ancestors knew about this problem as well. Debts that cant be paid wont be paid. Thanks to the magic of compound interest debts will accumulate faster and larger than the ability of those countries to pay. The answer is a jubilee.

[Tijuana]

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2017/02/...euro-long-ago/





https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-unexpectedly



10 years of poverty and misery later. Will the ECB change it's stance on pointless interest payments or are the German creditors not satiated with enough blood yet?

Maybe collecting taxes on the honor system was a bad move. Just sayin...

[Deleted]

Its very simple and our ancient ancestors knew about this problem as well. Debts that cant be paid wont be paid. Thanks to the magic of compound interest debts will accumulate faster and larger than the ability of those countries to pay. The answer is a jubilee.

It likely is, but that isn't making anyone any real money, so good luck with that.

[Glorious Leader]

Okay, lets ask, how long do you intend to punish Greece then? Like is there an actual "Thats enough" point?

The end would theoretically have to be the non sovereignty of thr greek people as a whole. Bond vigilantes will demand repayment, the ECB will not print euros, the greek government will have to privatize and sell off assets wholesale to pay the vigilantes and eventually their will be nothing left. The greeks protested this because it turns out if you want to invade a country you used to need an army. The greek rioters were saying bring the army.

[Ulmita]

Then what do you propose? Because you are mentioning something that has been said before, around the year 1930.

There needs to be some kind of debt relief (aka repay when you can) or help the country's economy to grow in order to be able to replay. In any case i am in the camp that supports the idea of Greece repaying their debt. There is too much corruption there and this might help them learn how to vote properly.

[Machismo]

The easy access to cheap loans artificially inflated the price of the house, artificially inflated the price of living and salaries. Without a decade of a financial bonanza that family wouldn't have bought that house.

The banks build a house on sand and when it fell apart they asked the tenants to repay back in full.

People bought houses they could not afford, so that they could extend their luxurious lifestyles. They were living on borrowed money, and never planned for their futures. If someone took out a loan they couldn't really afford, they have nobody else to blame.

[PassingBy]

Isn't it hilarious.

First the EU closes their eyes on the fact that Greece is unfit economically to join it.
Then as Greece joins the EU the EU destroys the most competitive parts of Greece economy, while encouraging the Greek government going deeper and deeper in debt.

Then everyone is suddenly surprised, when Greece is collapsing "What you have that much debt?" "This is just outrageous how dare you".
And the bailout comes. Instead of allowing Greece to default - the IMF and EU come out with a plan, adding another few hundred billions to the debt, that was used mainly to pay back the debt that Greece already had, cover the cost of that debt, and save the asses of the international banks that were holding Greek bonds. Effectively transfering the losses that will come to European tax payers from private banks.
Oh and while all of that happenned IMF and EU forced greece to cut spendings, essentially driving the economy further into downfall.

Now they are forcing another round of "financial aid" that will not even enter Greece, but will just be transferred between accounts of different credit holders of Greece as payment for existing debt, increasing the debt of the country even more.

At some point Greece will default, but instead of defaulting in 2008 and rebuilding it's economy Greece will default in 2017, or 2018 with hundreds of millions of debt more, the economy that is 10 years further down the drain, and half the country already sold for peanuts under the governance of the EU and IMF.

Just splendid.

[Deleted]

There needs to be some kind of debt relief (aka repay when you can) or help the country's economy to grow in order to be able to replay. In any case i am in the camp that supports the idea of Greece repaying their debt. There is too much corruption there and this might help them learn how to vote properly.

Well, it seems we actually are agreeing. I am not opposed to helping Greece, and neither am I against debt relief, because that would help Greece.

In one aspect, the debt has to remain existing, just to be that reminder that they can't overdo themselves again, and needs to be cautious and behold their politicians to the same.