Mythic Botanist help with spores

[nazstyle]

We seem to be getting a heap more spores then any other guild that's getting kills on this fight.. Looking for some help to see what's wrong with our strat. Our kill order is Naturalist, solarist then arcanist.

warcraftlogs.com/reports/jJbcadq62C3ymMR7/#type=damage-done&boss=-2&difficulty=0

Most guilds are getting 20-25 spores per kill, we're getting 50+ and that's only by half way through P2.

Any ideas? Cheers guys.

[stolker]

Regularly clear them with immunities.

[nazstyle]

Regularly clear them with immunities.

we are we have 3 rets, a hunter ect. Just.. getting more actual spawns then normal..

[Tojara]

You really aren't getting more. Spore debuffs don't show in WCL if you don't actually get the debuff. The reason why you think you're getting more is because of two factors. One your P1 and P2 are pretty long, and two more people are actually getting hit by the debuff in your guild than other logs I've referenced.

Simply put you need to clear better or people need to avoid spores better. You aren't going to get many opportunities to clear spores with ret paladins or hunters doing it. Rogues and DKs are the best for it because AMS and cloak of shadows has a much shorter CD.

[nazstyle]

You really aren't getting more. Spore debuffs don't show in WCL if you don't actually get the debuff. The reason why you think you're getting more is because of two factors. One your P1 and P2 are pretty long, and two more people are actually getting hit by the debuff in your guild than other logs I've referenced.

Simply put you need to clear better or people need to avoid spores better. You aren't going to get many opportunities to clear spores with ret paladins or hunters doing it. Rogues and DKs are the best for it because AMS and cloak of shadows has a much shorter CD.

Yeah, we changed up soaking tonight and got our positioning better which boosted out dps a lot. Went from half way P2 at the 8:30 mark. to Phasing to P3 at 6:51. We should get it next week. Thanks for the advice

[Ehrgein]

Sorry for hijacking this thread but, we are also progressing through this fight and the phases seem to take forever; might be due to having so many melee and not having enough ranged to actually clear adds consistently on p2? but I'm out of ideas, tried switching our melee to 2nd orb whilst ranged take care of adds but it's still becoming a mess. Are we THAT behind when it comes to phasing?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...iew=analytical

Mostly interested in the longest pulls we had, not the ones where we died to stupid.

Also, is lust THAT necessary in p3 or could we use it on p2 due to our comp? any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Dracodraco]

Sorry for hijacking this thread but, we are also progressing through this fight and the phases seem to take forever; might be due to having so many melee and not having enough ranged to actually clear adds consistently on p2? but I'm out of ideas, tried switching our melee to 2nd orb whilst ranged take care of adds but it's still becoming a mess. Are we THAT behind when it comes to phasing?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...iew=analytical

Mostly interested in the longest pulls we had, not the ones where we died to stupid.

Also, is lust THAT necessary in p3 or could we use it on p2 due to our comp? any help would be greatly appreciated.

Private log.

That being said, you can do something akin to what we did - move the melee on top of 2 out of 3 orbs in P2 to cleave adds:
https://youtu.be/1Aj5MiixqIk?t=3m52s

As you can see, sometimes melee gets the debuff if they stand right beneath them, but if the adds are hit instantly they're almost dead anyway so when you dispel again they spawn with no HP and dies to anything. We wait for the controlled chaos then move back to starting orb and repeat. Means ranged only has to deal with 1x set of adds on their own.

[Ehrgein]

Private log.

That being said, you can do something akin to what we did - move the melee on top of 2 out of 3 orbs in P2 to cleave adds:
https://youtu.be/1Aj5MiixqIk?t=3m52s

As you can see, sometimes melee gets the debuff if they stand right beneath them, but if the adds are hit instantly they're almost dead anyway so when you dispel again they spawn with no HP and dies to anything. We wait for the controlled chaos then move back to starting orb and repeat. Means ranged only has to deal with 1x set of adds on their own.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dznBGcPCM83Qthjv sorry, forgot for some reason they are parsing them privately now.

We had something similar of an idea, melee move out o the way of the 2nd adds a bit so they don't get fixate since we have.. wel... 7 melee? so that might help a lot, plus it would have more uptime on the boss aswell.

Thanks, any check up on our logs would be greatly appreciated too.

[Dracodraco]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dznBGcPCM83Qthjv sorry, forgot for some reason they are parsing them privately now.

We had something similar of an idea, melee move out o the way of the 2nd adds a bit so they don't get fixate since we have.. wel... 7 melee? so that might help a lot, plus it would have more uptime on the boss aswell.

Thanks, any check up on our logs would be greatly appreciated too.

You're in for a rough ride with a DH and paladin tank, not sure how that'll work in P3.
As for optimization, doing the above will help; I can't really compare numbers to my own guild as we killed it fairly quickly (8 minutes) and you're looking to go +9 min with your DPS, so you get more spawns, but suffice to say it frees up a lot of pressure.
Apart from that, control your spores in P2 - we have these "set" soaks:

After first plasma orb in P1 - me (hunter).
End of P1 - other hunter.
When my turtle is back up in P2, and when the other hunters' turtle is back up (usually pushing by then). Rogues emergency soak if we spawn bad spores, ret backups if either hunter doesn't have turtle. You should do something similiar. It seems to me that you're only doing 2x planned soaks (one in the middle of P1 by a rogue, one by hunter at the end of P1). With 6 minute wipes and the last "soak" happening at 2:30-3 minutes, it's no wonder things get out of control. There's simply no space.

Likewise, try to confine the call of nights - if you watch the video I linked, we tried keeping calls in between the triangle, moon and green as you can see on this picture:
https://gyazo.com/6c68b712221a570c07b4bce11e0f2d83

They spawn on calls, so having them away from the rest of the raid helps them move less, and it makes it a lot easier to clean for soakers.

[Ehrgein]

You're in for a rough ride with a DH and paladin tank, not sure how that'll work in P3.
As for optimization, doing the above will help; I can't really compare numbers to my own guild as we killed it fairly quickly (8 minutes) and you're looking to go +9 min with your DPS, so you get more spawns, but suffice to say it frees up a lot of pressure.
Apart from that, control your spores in P2 - we have these "set" soaks:

After first plasma orb in P1 - me (hunter).
End of P1 - other hunter.
When my turtle is back up in P2, and when the other hunters' turtle is back up (usually pushing by then). Rogues emergency soak if we spawn bad spores, ret backups if either hunter doesn't have turtle. You should do something similiar. It seems to me that you're only doing 2x planned soaks (one in the middle of P1 by a rogue, one by hunter at the end of P1). With 6 minute wipes and the last "soak" happening at 2:30-3 minutes, it's no wonder things get out of control. There's simply no space.

Likewise, try to confine the call of nights - if you watch the video I linked, we tried keeping calls in between the triangle, moon and green as you can see on this picture:
https://gyazo.com/6c68b712221a570c07b4bce11e0f2d83

They spawn on calls, so having them away from the rest of the raid helps them move less, and it makes it a lot easier to clean for soakers.

Yeah, we know. I'm the DH and I just found it too tedious to reroll after I got 54 traits so goddamn fast. It's obnoxious as hell that the tank difference is THAT huge. I know I can do it though; I just have to use my cds properly.

Anyway, what you are pointing out is that the orbs should be in the inner circle between the orbs? or outside from the orbs? I saw some people standing in the outer edges a few steps from where the orbs would land. Or just trying to clump them up? It gets a bit different from each call during the video, hence my quesiton.

That soaking thing you mentioned is pretty valuable though, I'll let my hunters know, I had a rotation but they seemed to be overlapping.

[Dracodraco]

Yeah, we know. I'm the DH and I just found it too tedious to reroll after I got 54 traits so goddamn fast. It's obnoxious as hell that the tank difference is THAT huge. I know I can do it though; I just have to use my cds properly.

Anyway, what you are pointing out is that the orbs should be in the inner circle between the orbs? or outside from the orbs? I saw some people standing in the outer edges a few steps from where the orbs would land. Or just trying to clump them up? It gets a bit different from each call during the video, hence my quesiton.

That soaking thing you mentioned is pretty valuable though, I'll let my hunters know, I had a rotation but they seemed to be overlapping.

https://gyazo.com/c0e56e8fc3d148fced7d218bef726b31 crude 30 second paint picture to explain;

Yellow is the middle of the circle. Blue/purple/green squares are the plasma orbs.

P1 is simple, just keep the bosses as still as possible, and kill orbs. We kill Blue->Purple orbs personally.
P2 we move the boss between blue and purple orbs to cleave lashers. Call of nights try to stay within the purple triangle, to let the rest of the raid use the middle of the room.

P3 gets a bit more tricky - we stack in the middle (yellow), making sure not to get hit by the tank. The first two calls move out to the red marks, one each, with a partner. When they get solar collapse, we run to the cyan squares, then on the next collapse, to the red - back and forth, back and forth. You're out of range of the raid in the middle like this.
When you get to second call of night, have them suicide into the spores instantly (make sure someone walks them out there so they don't pulse the raid). Same with third and fourth (should you get them)

Reason for this is that nothing happens for the first 40 out of 45 seconds of first call of night, so wasting 2x battle resses on them is fairly dumb. As long as you get the 2nd nights killed, it's all going to be fine and you'll have more people alive.

After second set of plasma orbs we dispel the debuff on tank and move to the bottom yellow square, and tank there till the boss dies. We kill purple->green orb in that position, and we're super close to the spores on both sides for suiciders.

[Ehrgein]

https://gyazo.com/c0e56e8fc3d148fced7d218bef726b31 crude 30 second paint picture to explain;

Yellow is the middle of the circle. Blue/purple/green squares are the plasma orbs.

P1 is simple, just keep the bosses as still as possible, and kill orbs. We kill Blue->Purple orbs personally.
P2 we move the boss between blue and purple orbs to cleave lashers. Call of nights try to stay within the purple triangle, to let the rest of the raid use the middle of the room.

P3 gets a bit more tricky - we stack in the middle (yellow), making sure not to get hit by the tank. The first two calls move out to the red marks, one each, with a partner. When they get solar collapse, we run to the cyan squares, then on the next collapse, to the red - back and forth, back and forth. You're out of range of the raid in the middle like this.
When you get to second call of night, have them suicide into the spores instantly (make sure someone walks them out there so they don't pulse the raid). Same with third and fourth (should you get them)

Reason for this is that nothing happens for the first 40 out of 45 seconds of first call of night, so wasting 2x battle resses on them is fairly dumb. As long as you get the 2nd nights killed, it's all going to be fine and you'll have more people alive.

After second set of plasma orbs we dispel the debuff on tank and move to the bottom yellow square, and tank there till the boss dies. We kill purple->green orb in that position, and we're super close to the spores on both sides for suiciders.

This is by far the most optimal post I've seen in regards of help I could have possible asked for. I had something similar in mind besides the call of nights going to the side in p2, it surely does feel much much better than what we were doing. Also, not making people die instantly in the first call of night is also incredibly useful. Thanks a lot for putting the time into helping our lovely but dumb guild. Much, much appreciated.

[Quotey]

it sounds a lot fucking less messy than it is

[Ehrgein]

it sounds a lot fucking less messy than it is

You are entirely correct, but after a few messy pulls and fucking up a lot, we "solidified" this strat and we managed to get to P3 with like, just 3 people dead. Obviously we instantly wiped since I didn't know that the boss would cast flare RIGHT as soon as he transitioned so... yeah. But I'm really happy that we got this far for just having 2 days with 20 players, we used to have 18...

[Dracodraco]

it sounds a lot fucking less messy than it is

In fairness quotey, that's because our ranged are retards. If you can keep the ranged at max distance, you don't actually have to move from controlled chaos/solar flare as melee. We just never had issues with it so I didn't enforce it .

[Tojara]

We did basically the same thing, although we just opted to kill people right before the second call of the night went out. I just escorted people out as the tank on one side because my DPS doesn't mean shit, and requires less organization when you have a person who can't be targeted with call of the night escorting somebody out.

First set we allowed to live until the second collapse spawn, to which they then killed themselves. This basically allowed them to get all of their CDs/pot/lust before dying. After that you have enough spores that's it's just easier to suicide into them, at least that's what we did.

We only dispelled the tank once, but for some tanking compositions you might have to dispel more than once. Bear druids are absolutely disgusting at it, with some logs having them tanking the entire P3, but most usually can tank it for a 60 seconds (easy) or upwards of 80-90 seconds with good CD coverage. I've seen DKs do the same with certain talents (not the whole phase, just 80-90 seconds), and I believe monks are decent at it as well as stagger does some portion of magic damage . What you really want out of a tank here is just really consistent damage smoothing that's up all the time, to carry you through the first 40 seconds, and then externals and personal CDs to carry you through the next 30-40 seconds if possible. DH sounds absolutely awful for this, as does protection paladin or protection warrior. The problem here, at least with DH/Paladin, that it might be difficult to last long enough consistently to where you only have to dispel once. Dispelling twice really isn't ideal, and a second dispel would normally happen around a time where a good portion of your raid might be dead.

One of the more important things about dispelling is when to dispel, and you generally want to do it after orbs or before orbs even come out. You really don't want controlled chaos damage happening when orbs need to be killed.

We didn't find the boss that difficult, it only took like 25 attempts to kill. A large portion of the difficulty is tied to if you have a guardian druid, how many ankhs or priest capes you have (holy priests, resto shaman, elemental shaman) and how good you are at the first two phases. It's pretty painful to get to P3 without having any combat rezzes, unless you actually do the encounter how it's probably 'intended' to be done, and have up to 4 call of the nights going at the same time (although the first two end shortly after the next ones begin).

[Ehrgein]

In fairness quotey, that's because our ranged are retards. If you can keep the ranged at max distance, you don't actually have to move from controlled chaos/solar flare as melee. We just never had issues with it so I didn't enforce it .

We felt this more than once... ranged staying too close fucks P2 completely, we had more than a few issues that tanks needed to move against the walls... like that; https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jRD26H14TNJbXdrZ but all in all tries went much better than the previous night, thanks everyone for th help

We did basically the same thing, although we just opted to kill people right before the second call of the night went out. I just escorted people out as the tank on one side because my DPS doesn't mean shit, and requires less organization when you have a person who can't be targeted with call of the night escorting somebody out.

First set we allowed to live until the second collapse spawn, to which they then killed themselves. This basically allowed them to get all of their CDs/pot/lust before dying. After that you have enough spores that's it's just easier to suicide into them, at least that's what we did.

We only dispelled the tank once, but for some tanking compositions you might have to dispel more than once. Bear druids are absolutely disgusting at it, with some logs having them tanking the entire P3, but most usually can tank it for a 60 seconds (easy) or upwards of 80-90 seconds with good CD coverage. I've seen DKs do the same with certain talents (not the whole phase, just 80-90 seconds), and I believe monks are decent at it as well as stagger does some portion of magic damage . What you really want out of a tank here is just really consistent damage smoothing that's up all the time, to carry you through the first 40 seconds, and then externals and personal CDs to carry you through the next 30-40 seconds if possible. DH sounds absolutely awful for this, as does protection paladin or protection warrior. The problem here, at least with DH/Paladin, that it might be difficult to last long enough consistently to where you only have to dispel once. Dispelling twice really isn't ideal, and a second dispel would normally happen around a time where a good portion of your raid might be dead.

One of the more important things about dispelling is when to dispel, and you generally want to do it after orbs or before orbs even come out. You really don't want controlled chaos damage happening when orbs need to be killed.

We didn't find the boss that difficult, it only took like 25 attempts to kill. A large portion of the difficulty is tied to if you have a guardian druid, how many ankhs or priest capes you have (holy priests, resto shaman, elemental shaman) and how good you are at the first two phases. It's pretty painful to get to P3 without having any combat rezzes, unless you actually do the encounter how it's probably 'intended' to be done, and have up to 4 call of the nights going at the same time (although the first two end shortly after the next ones begin).

Even tho it sounds like DHs can't survive through that, which I assume they can't but it doesn't hurt to try, I have the legendary trinket/LUL'dan trinket so I think that with careful planning of cooldowns I can make it to P3, not entirely sure, but without dying I think it's manageable. Needless to say, it took an entire night and a half for people to stop dying to heroic mechanics so.... yeah. But on the bright side, we really really polished P2, it used to go sideways for us in the first 25% and now we are reaching 10% most of the time or even p3, which well, went shit since I didn't know that flare would go RIGHT as soon as he transitioned, hence me getting rooted and going splat.

[Tojara]

Unless I'm understanding wrong, you shouldn't need to pop any major CDs prior to P3. I mean, blood DK isn't amazing, but all I pretty much use is vamp blood every so often and AMS in P2 when the other tank has both adds so I can clear spores. DH should be fine just keeping spikes up and using fiery brand, pretty much on CD. None of the tank damage should be threatening, until the roots are on you in P3 for a prolonged period of time.

The shitty thing about DH is that you have fiery brand and empowered wards which both have CDs. Empowered wards in particular is the retarded cousin of bear druids MoU, because Blizzard decided that a 30% magic DR ability that last like 6 seconds shouldn't have a CD. Truth be told if druids 30% DR had a CD they wouldn't be by and large the best tank for doing this. Meta really doesn't do a lot to help you, and the only thing I can think of is taking a talent like fracture and trying to keep as many souls as possible up so you have a steady stream of DR from one of your golden traits. Soul barrier wouldn't be bad, if it you know, didn't have a CD.

Any of the other leech talents really aren't going to help much when you're doing at best several hundred thousand DPS and the dot is hitting you for a couple million every second.

[Ehrgein]

Unless I'm understanding wrong, you shouldn't need to pop any major CDs prior to P3. I mean, blood DK isn't amazing, but all I pretty much use is vamp blood every so often and AMS in P2 when the other tank has both adds so I can clear spores. DH should be fine just keeping spikes up and using fiery brand, pretty much on CD. None of the tank damage should be threatening, until the roots are on you in P3 for a prolonged period of time.

The shitty thing about DH is that you have fiery brand and empowered wards which both have CDs. Empowered wards in particular is the retarded cousin of bear druids MoU, because Blizzard decided that a 30% magic DR ability that last like 6 seconds shouldn't have a CD. Truth be told if druids 30% DR had a CD they wouldn't be by and large the best tank for doing this. Meta really doesn't do a lot to help you, and the only thing I can think of is taking a talent like fracture and trying to keep as many souls as possible up so you have a steady stream of DR from one of your golden traits. Soul barrier wouldn't be bad, if it you know, didn't have a CD.

Any of the other leech talents really aren't going to help much when you're doing at best several hundred thousand DPS and the dot is hitting you for a couple million every second.

Well, you kinda do haha, both bosses hit really REALLY hard even when you do the taunts perfectly. Tried several different trinkets but Gul'dan's one netted much more mitigation overall. That's what I've been telling my guild, I don't know who had the idea of giving druids mitigation without CD whereas mostly every other tank has their mitigation on a CD and with resource cost, ironfur/MoU are the most retarded things I've seen in tanks in a while besides Guard. Meta doesn't do a lot yes, but it increases HP by a large margin which is half of a lay on hands if used properly. The thing with meta is that your pain gen goes through the roof and you can net some more soul cleaves, hence more healing/survivability. This of course needs MUCH more planning than druids have, but even then I think you can survive through it. Although, yes, I know it's a make believe scenario.

[Adramelch]

@Dracodraco: When you're not sacrificing the first collapses, what do you do if the "soaker" of the collapse guys gets the new collapse?