Greece economic woes worsen as IMF says greece should have left Eurozone

[Cyanu]

just for the sake of the conversation can we stop treating loans as if they're charity? that would make it alot more productive

EU gave no charity to Greece, it gave it loans though, just like a bank would, with interest, there are no friendships in international relations and idealists like Syriza expecting solidarity were leaving in a fairy tale, they learned the hard way that the world is Machiavelian, can we at least not pretend that some side has the moral high ground on this?

as for austerity it's madness, it's not science,it's dogma, just do some research of what happened everywhere the IMF and it's programs showed their ugly faces, google it

and if anyone somehow believes that Greece implemented no austerity he must be an idiot, taxes are insane and everywhere, pensions and wages plummmeted, state property sold to the highest bidder often against public interest

now Greece should definately not join the Eurozone, but spare me the crap about how EU was unaware of the greek debt, everyone knew what was going on and for the record there are way bigger problem's than the Greek debt , it's not about money it' about the rules, the Greek debt is tiny compared to that the total EU debt

soon it will be France's turn for some 'austerity' and 'fiscal morality', lots of fun when EU will start tearing itself apart from self imposed rules that are choking it, in their madness the British might have actually done their country a great service by leaving...

[Cybran]

I don't care, my own fucking childhood was in the worst economic crisis that this nation have seen in 200 years. It was cheaper to loan money and rely on inflation than to have a fucking job, having a job was worthless because it bought you nothing, we had 25-33 % unemployment in the youth, my parents broke their backs to afford food and commodities to me as a child.

So don't try this bleeding heart tactic, I lived it and we got fucking nothing in support and it took an entire generations woes and hardships to make Denmark the great place it is today.

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9701/13...ref=sitesearch


I grew up in Post-Socialism in the 90s. And it was horrible. I have gone to school hungry, old shoes and with stitched jackets. Everyone who has lived though it knows how much it sucks.

This is why Europe needs to stand up to the ECB and tell them to fuck themselves in the ass. German lenders should accept their losses and let Europe heal.

[Deleted]

Greece is the only intervened country that is failing to recuperate, so something is clearly not working there.

[Deleted]

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/9701/13...ref=sitesearch


I grew up in Post-Socialism in the 90s. And it was horrible. I have gone to school hungry, old shoes and with stitched jackets. Everyone who has lived though it knows how much it sucks.

This is why Europe needs to stand up to the ECB and tell them to fuck themselves in the ass. German lenders should accept their losses and let Europe heal.

But it wouldn't just be a loss, it would create ripples, ripples that would effect far more than just Greece (granted Greece would still feel an effect of it), and once again create uncertainty cycles.

As for our sad stories, I can't speak on your behalf, but we certainly didn't default or were given any special treatment, yet here we are today alive and well.

[Cyanu]

[QUOTE=Tauror;44664065]Greece is the only intervened country that is failing to recuperate, so something is clearly not working there.[/QUOT

of course it is, the Greek economy was depending on a couple of strong sectors to 'carry' the rest:

tourism: a crapload of money to be made with all that sea,sun,islands and preserved history

agriculture: the weather couldn't be more favorable for the cultivation of specific products

ships: a huge commercial fleet under the Greek flag

the state sustained itself by taxing those three, gave it's employees huge wages and pensions and along with those employed in the three big private sector composed the Greek middle class which was enjoying a good quality of life and able to sustain the smaller sectors

the EU common agricultural policy screwed Greek agriculture (each EU country must specialize in cultivating specific products), the Euro toned down tourism as it became considerably more expensive than it used to be and the ever growing national debt (driven further by huge spending in defense) make the economy fragile

at the first crisis the country finds itself vurnerable and both the public and the 3 big private sectors drop, taking down everything with them, the response was austerity which accelerates the 'dive' and leads us here, the american treatement was needed but that option was not there as it would indeed by European charity, so let's crash it!

essentially it was much like a plane on stall for which the pilots decided that it was going down too fast therefore they needed to reduce speed, boom! except that the pilots had persuasion from the outside to reduce speed

[Cosmic Janitor]

Oh look, Trump got boring, let's herd the pig with the blue and white stripes through the village again.

Everyone saw it coming. Everyone wanted them to finally leave.
The original authors of that shit show didn't have the balls for it, the last ditch effort clown possie that the people elected chickened out as well.
And here we go again.

Next year, same time? Or do we do this bi-annualy now?

[Noradin]

Well, it seems we actually are agreeing. I am not opposed to helping Greece, and neither am I against debt relief, because that would help Greece.

In one aspect, the debt has to remain existing, just to be that reminder that they can't overdo themselves again, and needs to be cautious and behold their politicians to the same.

I agree.
The problem here is a justified lack of trust in the willingness of Greece to do better in the future.

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just for the sake of the conversation can we stop treating loans as if they're charity? that would make it alot more productive

EU gave no charity to Greece, it gave it loans though, just like a bank would, with interest, there are no friendships in international relations and idealists like Syriza expecting solidarity were leaving in a fairy tale, they learned the hard way that the world is Machiavelian, can we at least not pretend that some side has the moral high ground on this?

Loans with interest as low as the EU gave Greece are effectively charity.
The already did donate them years of interest and all they got in return was emnity.
I'd call that charity.

[Orlong]

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2017/02/...euro-long-ago/





https://www.theguardian.com/business...s-unexpectedly



10 years of poverty and misery later. Will the ECB change it's stance on pointless interest payments or are the German creditors not satiated with enough blood yet?

This is what happens when you dont make people work and give them everything they need (socialism). Perhaps the Greek Government shouldve been run better. Let them wallow in their own shit

[Ulmita]

This is what happens when you dont make people work and give them everything they need (socialism). Perhaps the Greek Government shouldve been run better. Let them wallow in their own shit

Granded that Greeks work the most in EU i think you're somewhere off in that statement.

[xenogear3]

This is what happens when you dont make people work and give them everything they need (socialism). Perhaps the Greek Government shouldve been run better. Let them wallow in their own shit

It is not Greece's fault.

The Euro currency is a flawed design.

Greece cannot devalue its currency to be competitive.

[Tabrotar]

Granded that Greeks work the most in EU i think you're somewhere off in that statement.

Because almost all of the other EU countrys have a system where you have to work till you´re 65 and in greek it´s 55.
Hm somehow that doesn´t make any sence whatsoever to me but please enlighten me how is working 10 years less a equivalent to working the most?

[shrunken]

So this is the European dream? Cool, keep me posted.

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It's the financial institution's responsibility to make the judgement if a loan is secure or not.

They didn't and they should have paid for their greed.

If they add Mental Gymnastics to the next Olympic games, you'll be able to pawn your gold medal to help offset some of the Greek debt.

[Ulmita]

Because almost all of the other EU countrys have a system where you have to work till you´re 65 and in greek it´s 55.
Hm somehow that doesn´t make any sence whatsoever to me but please enlighten me how is working 10 years less a equivalent to working the most?

This was true for very special cases like military. It isn't any more.

[Cyanu]

I agree.
The problem here is a justified lack of trust in the willingness of Greece to do better in the future.

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Loans with interest as low as the EU gave Greece are effectively charity.
The already did donate them years of interest and all they got in return was emnity.
I'd call that charity.

and you'd be wrong, the cost of those loans was so great that many believe that accepting them was a mistake (i do too), because the cost is not interest alone, but even if the interest is indeed low (higher than inflation obviously) it's still not charity, the loss of a sovereign fiscal policy is what stings the worse, we can also repay in services, as we're turning into the 'charitable' Europe's refugee bank, we stable the unwanted so you can appease your far right loons, it's a sad situation that the supposed liberal EU is bound to it's nationalists

if you want to believe in a moral Europe that takes care of it's misguided little countries you can, but EU is not that, it stopped being that long ago, i used to believe in all the European ideals too but now i almost like the idea of some far right lunatic tearing it apart and releasing us from those shackles

but the real mistake was in the past: Greece should have never joined the eurozone, there was no benefit for either group, yet both agreed to, ever since joining the debt kept increasing, but the debt alone is not a problem, a debt is mostly an expectation nothing that exists in physical form unless we want it to and Europe wanted it to and the Greek leadership was too incompetent to handle it, our politicians fly only in warm weather, good for celebrations and such, not so good for crisis management

but now Greece is part of the eurozone and it can't just leave, so we're all stuck with an undesirable situatition, just look at it from the other side before calling it charity

to clarify i'm not blaming EU for what's happening to Greece but it's no innocent either, what i'm admant against is European right wing populists trying to win over votes from Bild readers the Trumpsters of Germany, all countries have some and they're mostly harmless in low numbers, what matters is that the matter can be resolved if there's enough political will, if it doesn't it's inevitable that EU will fail in the longterm (which it probably will anyways)

[Deleted]

It is not Greece's fault.

The Euro currency is a flawed design.

Greece cannot devalue its currency to be competitive.

Even if they had an independent currency, they'd still be beholden to their debts and investments, as well as GDP and BNP, which means their devaluation would be negligible to further investments and trade.

[Cyanu]

Even if they had an independent currency, they'd still be beholden to their debts and investments, as well as GDP and BNP, which means their devaluation would be negligible to further investments and trade.

it would mostly be about exports/imports

ever since adopting the euro the scale turned dramatically towards imports

also the debt was lower back then, but Greece will always be a high debt country due to defense spending which is not up for debate, national interest security and sovereignty will always be above money and defense is an existential matter for most of the world still

[Ulmita]

it would mostly be about exports/imports

ever since adopting the euro the scale turned dramatically towards imports

also the debt was lower back then, but Greece will always be a high debt country due to defense spending which is not up for debate, national interest security and sovereignty will always be above money and defense is an existential matter for most of the world still

Going back to drachma would be disastrous. The solution should be within EU.

[Cyanu]

Going back to drachma would be disastrous. The solution should be within EU.

we can't be certain but the risk is too great now, like i said the mistake was in the past and the damage is already done, now we see what's salvagable

[alexw]

It is not Greece's fault.

The Euro currency is a flawed design.

Greece cannot devalue its currency to be competitive.

Yup the Euro is hugely overvalued for Greece. Since there are no internal transfers to balance the system (which is the only other potential solution while remaining in the Eurozone), Greece is instead left with no choice but to undertake internal devaluation.

Unfortunately that means deflation which in turn means a contracting economy. That increases the real value of debt as everyone earns less and the GDP component of the debt to GDP ratio shrinks. This then necessitates further cuts in spending (as a greater share of national income needs to be diverted to pay these mounting debts), which brings about more deflation thereby restarting the whole contractionary cycle again.

The IMF has said that unless there is debt relief the Greek economy will at some point collapse meaning that under the current paradigm default is inevitable. They are right. Greece is trapped in a fisher debt deflation cycle with no way out. The creditors however like all creditors are loathe to write off these bad debts, even though writing them off will maximize the money they do get back as a result of ending the deflationary cycle.

At some point I expect Greece to say enough is enough and leave the Euro currency zone. This is what has happened historically whenever a country is foolish enough to enter a fixed currency zone without redistributive balancing mechanisms between its component parts. The end result is not going to be different this time.

[Vargur]

Well i´d guess that leaving the EU would also mean leaving the Eurozone, also i think leaving the EU would be very much needed for them to default and start again.

They're receiving non-refundable money by being in the EU, stop saying stupid things.