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  1. #241
    Not only brought back, but made it take a flat % of max health to give a flat % of mana back so that you always have to life tap the same amount no matter what your hp pool is.

    I don't get them sometimes, as if its really an enjoyable mechanic.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  2. #242
    I mean, if it was anything but a pure class penalty and rotational disruption, it could be something.

    Like Gul'dan in HotS, needs to use life tap because his spells are particularly powerful and have really low cooldowns if any, so mana is the limitation to their innately stronger values and cd's. He also fills his bar with 1-2 life taps instead of needing 3-4 to fill up my bar when I get low.

    But our spells aren't particularly powerful that they'd need a limitation in mana so that mana is some kind of meaningful resource. It's just punishment for being a warlock while shadow priests, balance druids, fire/frost mage and ele shaman happily plink away at mobs without having to press an empty global that also chunks their health so they can keep casting.

    Dark caster archetype my ass, shadow priest got that in spades while we push out wimpy ass spells with hardly any visual flair. Those big meaty chaosbolts, or the feel of soul swap cata affliction malefic grasp+haunt rot gameplay, or the unique playstyle of old demo. Demo as the NetherLORD is reduced to summoning pack of imps and dreadstalkers while surrounded by broodmothers, jailors, fel lords, enslaved eredar twins and inquisitors.

    Demonhunters eclipsed our fel aspects while shadow priests schooled affliction on void/shadow magics.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-02-19 at 06:23 AM.

  3. #243
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Not only brought back, but made it take a flat % of max health to give a flat % of mana back so that you always have to life tap the same amount no matter what your hp pool is.

    I don't get them sometimes, as if its really an enjoyable mechanic.
    The funny thing is, they tried to implement that same version (flat% --> flat%) back in the day when destruction still had Life Tap... but it was shot down by player feedback. Negative scaling felt bad back then, it feels bad now.

    Unfortunately, this time around Blizzard was like "F*ck feedback, we ARE going to restore all these annoying features from the past back to the class and, if possible, in their worst incarnation ever. Suck it up, warlocks!"

    What did the destruction players NOT want?
    Life tap --> implemented
    maintenance buff (remember ISF) --> implemented
    pet dependence --> implemented
    detachment of main filler from resource system --> implemented
    devaluation of CB --> implemented
    removal of SB --> implemented
    replacement of player control by RNG --> implemented
    replacement of a versatile and fun AoE mechanics by a clunky, rarely useful ability --> implemented
    removal of baseline mobility --> implemented
    and so on...

    Legion design of destruction is HORRIBLE, it's the complete opposite to what most players want from destruction.

  4. #244
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    snip

    Legion design of destruction is HORRIBLE, it's the complete opposite to what most players want from destruction.
    Which - to be honest - is unfortunately one of the problems: Players always want to get better in their weakness but not worse in their strenghts. Over time, this leads to the "I want it all" mentality that WoD fully catered to. There were really no weaknesses any more.

    The bigger problem is that there are still classes the are in the situation of "none or few weaknesses", that's why warlocks feel particularily bad at the moment. At least destro does. Affli by now has become the "good at almost everything" spec (strongest ST, strongest sustained AoE, OK cleave, insane self-heal).

  5. #245
    >Destro needs a raiding buff

    Warlocks need a raiding buff from my understanding.

  6. #246
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    >Destro needs a raiding buff

    Warlocks need a raiding buff from my understanding.
    Then you need to get a better understanding. Affli does very well on most fights. Demo does very well on some. Destro does only really ok at Botanist (although so does demo there) and Elisande.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    replacement of a versatile and fun AoE mechanics by a clunky, rarely useful ability --> implemented
    Actually, during WoD, everyone screamed about how they wanted rain of fire back. That was the number one complaint about destruction for some reason. I agree with the rest of the post.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Socronoss View Post
    Which - to be honest - is unfortunately one of the problems: Players always want to get better in their weakness but not worse in their strenghts. Over time, this leads to the "I want it all" mentality that WoD fully catered to. There were really no weaknesses any more.

    The bigger problem is that there are still classes the are in the situation of "none or few weaknesses", that's why warlocks feel particularily bad at the moment. At least destro does. Affli by now has become the "good at almost everything" spec (strongest ST, strongest sustained AoE, OK cleave, insane self-heal).


    Affli doesn't have strongest ST. That's demo.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...dps&dataset=90

    Aff also doesn't have strongest sustained aoe, aff aoe is garbage outside soul flame cheese on short lived adds.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1871

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1862

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1886

    Any fight that's not pure ST, demo picks up over affliction considerably. The mindset that aff has aoe needs to die.

    In fact, affliction's placement in overall performance is completely skewed by skorpyron. Demo is overall a superior spec for cleave, ST, and aoe, and for priority target damage destro is still miles better which is why the locks for mythic elisande and guldan are used as destro.

    Either way, you'd dump the warlock for a shadow priest and be better off most of the time unless you want a destro warlock for priority add damage.

    Aff hype was a thing before the geniuses at Blizzard nerfed MG by 10% and later on had the gall to buff assassination by 4% when assassination was trouncing everybody else, aff locks included at 80% MG. Assassination rogues beat the next best ST spec by ~10%. Which is why they stacked so many of them this tier.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-02-19 at 12:30 PM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    In fact, affliction's placement in overall performance is completely skewed by skorpyron. Demo is overall a superior spec for cleave, ST, and aoe, and for priority target damage destro is still miles better which is why the locks for mythic elisande and guldan are used as destro.
    Have WCL changed their policy then? Last thing I read by Kihra was that Skorpyron was not included in All Star Points nor in aggregate statistics for all bosses. I can probably dig out a link if needed.

    Affliction is not as bad as some people say it is either... Of course for people on farm the results become skewed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    To get back on topic a bit more I still really love Destro as a progress spec on Botanist, Elliande and Gul'dan (normal/herioc).

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Socronoss View Post
    Over time, this leads to the "I want it all" mentality that WoD fully catered to. There were really no weaknesses any more.
    Did you mean mop? Cause wod had all that pruning specifically to move away from that. That was the issue with demonology in t17, it was mechanically such a well rounded kit vs how much they pruned / changed with aff / destro that when all 3 were closely balanced there was no reason to play anything besides demo.

    Destro was destroyed by movement and had mediocre ST but was good at cleave / priority / aoe, aff had no priority damage or aoe to speak of and was basically just a turret ST spec / good on the one council fight, demo after they nerfed the crap out of it went back to its niche of being great for movement and burst aoe but just passable at everything else. The specs had very clear weaknesses and strengths. People are generally asking for our strengths back that we lost with legion design changes, not to improve our weaknesses.

    Except for ST, people always want more ST because it tends to be more important in normal / heroic raiding than priority damage etc. But generally speaking people want destruction to be what it was, strengths and weaknesses and all, as opposed to what its become which just moved away from its strengths and the things that drew people to the spec, while adding weaknesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    Actually, during WoD, everyone screamed about how they wanted rain of fire back. That was the number one complaint about destruction for some reason. I agree with the rest of the post.
    People wanted RoF back as a generator like it was in mop. It was nerfed because if they made it generate embers it became part of our ST rotation, players consistently asked for them to just make it require a certain # of targets before it generated embers to prevent that and then to put it back as part of our aoe rotation since it smoothed out generation and made it feel better to play. Which was especially needed with charred remains making it feel awful to play because CB needed 2 embers to aoe.

    No one asked for it to become our primary spender and for them to remove FnB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    had the gall to buff assassination by 4% when assassination was trouncing everybody else
    They also fixed a bug with I believe it was kingsbane which resulted in a larger than 4% nerf. Between both it resulted in some tiny baby nerf somewhere between 1-2% iirc. It wasn't like they just buffed it by 4% for no apparent reason.
    Last edited by Baconeggcheese; 2017-02-19 at 02:30 PM.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post

    In fact, affliction's placement in overall performance is completely skewed by skorpyron. Demo is overall a superior spec for cleave, ST, and aoe, and for priority target damage destro is still miles better which is why the locks for mythic elisande and guldan are used as destro.
    Not a fact. Skorpyron is excluded from overall statistics on Warcraftlogs, so affliction's place on skorpyron has no bearing on its overall spec score.

    You can make a strong argument that on most fights affliction isn't a great progression spec, but not based on your premise because it just isn't true

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikeyshadow View Post
    Have WCL changed their policy then? Last thing I read by Kihra was that Skorpyron was not included in All Star Points nor in aggregate statistics for all bosses. I can probably dig out a link if needed.

    Affliction is not as bad as some people say it is either... Of course for people on farm the results become skewed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    To get back on topic a bit more I still really love Destro as a progress spec on Botanist, Elliande and Gul'dan (normal/herioc).


    You're right, Kihra did not include Skorpyron.

    Nobody is saying affliction is bad. It's just nowhere close to the best warlock spec. Both demo and destro outperform it in their respective niches. That's what I wanted to show.

    People are acting like affliction is the one lucky spec that is all fine and dandy and that demo and destro are broken, but affliction is only propped up by recent number changes. It was not long ago that many people were bemoaning the state of the spec until malefic grasp was put in.

    There's plenty to go for all warlock specs in terms of mechanical shortcomings and terribad artifact trait/ability design.

    I'd say demo is the one with the best thought out artifact traits and ability. Their issue is only number tuning for demonwrath to not be trash and smoothing out the windows to maximize TKC by addressing the demonic empowerment elephant in the room.
    Last edited by Lucrece; 2017-02-19 at 05:26 PM.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    The funny thing is, they tried to implement that same version (flat% --> flat%) back in the day when destruction still had Life Tap... but it was shot down by player feedback. Negative scaling felt bad back then, it feels bad now.

    Unfortunately, this time around Blizzard was like "F*ck feedback, we ARE going to restore all these annoying features from the past back to the class and, if possible, in their worst incarnation ever. Suck it up, warlocks!"

    What did the destruction players NOT want?
    Life tap --> implemented
    maintenance buff (remember ISF) --> implemented
    pet dependence --> implemented
    detachment of main filler from resource system --> implemented
    devaluation of CB --> implemented
    removal of SB --> implemented
    replacement of player control by RNG --> implemented
    replacement of a versatile and fun AoE mechanics by a clunky, rarely useful ability --> implemented
    removal of baseline mobility --> implemented
    and so on...

    Legion design of destruction is HORRIBLE, it's the complete opposite to what most players want from destruction.
    I'm glad you guys can speak for every single player. It's not like there's contradicting feedback or anything. I'm sure you also have actual numbers and these aren't all just how you personally feel. I've been maining destruction warlock since vanilla was released.

    I like life tap and hope it stays. I like ELT and hope it stays. I could go through the whole list, some of which I agree on (SB over incinerate) and some of which the community has proven to vocally disagree on (SB over incinerate) but that's not the point. The point is just because you want something or you like or dislike something does not mean everyone else does. Even if it's the most vocal on MMO Champ.

    My main issue with destruction is Havoc and more specifically Wreak Havoc. It's clear everything they do to destruction is working around that ability and I do not think it's for the better. It's not even that interesting when you use it to great effect.

  14. #254
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zizzypie View Post
    I'm glad you guys can speak for every single player. It's not like there's contradicting feedback or anything. I'm sure you also have actual numbers and these aren't all just how you personally feel. I've been maining destruction warlock since vanilla was released.

    I like life tap and hope it stays. I like ELT and hope it stays. I could go through the whole list, some of which I agree on (SB over incinerate) and some of which the community has proven to vocally disagree on (SB over incinerate) but that's not the point. The point is just because you want something or you like or dislike something does not mean everyone else does. Even if it's the most vocal on MMO Champ.

    My main issue with destruction is Havoc and more specifically Wreak Havoc. It's clear everything they do to destruction is working around that ability and I do not think it's for the better. It's not even that interesting when you use it to great effect.
    I'm not speaking for every single player. Within a large, statistically-relevant, pool of people there are always people with differing opinions. I'm speaking in a statistical sense for most destruction players, especially those who have played destruction for a long time. The things I mentioned are those which the majority of long-time destruction players agree about, based on the various, massively voluminous feedback threads on the official forums (and elsewhere) ever since Legion alpha/beta.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Zizzypie View Post
    I'm glad you guys can speak for every single player. It's not like there's contradicting feedback or anything. I'm sure you also have actual numbers and these aren't all just how you personally feel. I've been maining destruction warlock since vanilla was released.

    I like life tap and hope it stays. I like ELT and hope it stays. I could go through the whole list, some of which I agree on (SB over incinerate) and some of which the community has proven to vocally disagree on (SB over incinerate) but that's not the point. The point is just because you want something or you like or dislike something does not mean everyone else does. Even if it's the most vocal on MMO Champ.

    My main issue with destruction is Havoc and more specifically Wreak Havoc. It's clear everything they do to destruction is working around that ability and I do not think it's for the better. It's not even that interesting when you use it to great effect.
    Yeah... if you pay the slightest bit of attention to feedback its pretty obvious people hate maintenance buffs. Its literally gone the same way every xpac, the masses freaking hated soulburn haunt, so they removed it, and invocation before that, and improved soulfire before that, etc etc etc. They put one of these on a caster (usually us) every xpac, and its always removed by the next xpac because feedback is always that people almost universally hate it.

    That is not to say there isn't the odd man out like yourself who enjoys ELT, but if you've payed the slightest bit of attention to feedback over the years its pretty obvious which way the community leans. Hell MT was 3% ahead of RE and more useful since it was flat dmg which worked on aoe, and you still saw 99% of players using RE when given the option to take the 3% dmg loss. That's not because the consensus is people enjoy life tap / mana tap in any large numbers.

    I see people every day between these forums and discord etc asking if they HAVE to use ELT and being super happy that they *can* opt to use eradication because of how much they hate ELT. These aren't the most vocal people on mmochamp, these are people who pop over to forums / discord / in gameto ask for help because they're struggling with / dislike ELT and RB and CDF so much and then I likely never see again.

    You don't need to recruit the intelligence community to figure out which way the community leans on destro or what drew them to the spec for the last 2 xpacs. It's fairly apparent.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yeah... if you pay the slightest bit of attention to feedback its pretty obvious
    I'm not speaking for every single player. Within a large, statistically-relevant, pool of people there are always people with differing opinions. I'm speaking in a statistical sense for most destruction players
    This is my point, exactly. Because you guys it in an echo chamber you think you know what every player wants. It's not helpful. It may be true most, if not even a vast majority of people dislike ELT. (hint: eradication is still competitive in situations) But it's unhelpful to state matter of fact, without any facts or statistics, that somethings wrong rather than just give an opinion as to why you do or don't like something.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Zizzypie View Post
    This is my point, exactly. Because you guys it in an echo chamber you think you know what every player wants.
    Like I said, when RE and MT were balanced so that MT was 3% ahead of RE, while MT was also just flat out a better talent since its flat damage that works in all situations and RE just gives you back mana (which destro barely uses) and reduces the cast time of CB, the statistics of the overall player data showed that literally 99% of the community opted to use RE.

    There is no bubble there.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  18. #258
    You bunch of losers... nobody cares what you write here. If you had any balls you would have created a thread in the US forums... I have 2 balls but 0 us accounts.

    l
    o
    s
    e
    r
    s

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/1012670/

    Infracted - Woz
    Last edited by Woz; 2017-03-17 at 10:58 PM.

  19. #259
    You ok mate?
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  20. #260
    Deleted
    I feel like I'm in bizzaro world.

    I'm used to spending all my time moaning about warlock class design and getting told IT'S FINE or that I'm just nostalgia-ing over previous itterations.

    That said, as many problems as I have with destruction - I think all the complaints in this thread are complaints I'd made at some point or another, whether it be the removal of embers, SB not being baseline or inflated resource generation with devalued Chaosbolts - I'm enjoying the spec more than I'd expect.

    Maybe it's just because of how unhappy I was with it on launch - but the 7.1.5 changes, as much as I hate maintenance buffs on paper, resulted in me enjoying myself a lot more with CDF being useful, the ROF + Cata buff to make it feel like the spec could actually do something in AOE even if I think the old AOE mechanics were better and my surprising acceptance of ELT.
    I still think the specs been in significantly better places, but I'm enjoying myself more than I have any right to.

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