The poor state of Unholy

[Deleted]

Any idea how he is triggering sephuz at the beggining of the fight ? I thought they removed that on bosses.

I have it smash and apocalypse macro'd seems to work ok.

[Nayami]

For those playing around with Dark Arbiter, are you consuming your RP via Death Strike or Death Coil? I am currently popping DA at 115 RP and I go with DS -> DC -> DC to completely deplete my RP bar. I know that we should consume any RP as soon as possible with Death Coil, but what if you have enough RP for DS? Should we be casting DS instead in that scenario or would that result in a DPS loss?

I've also just tried it out in a Mythic+ dungeon and it had pretty decent results (using CoF trinket). It was an EoA +12 run with Tyrannical and I went with BS/PP/CS/IC/DA build. I usually got to cast DA once on trash before each boss, except for Serpentrix as he is too close to the previous boss. On bosses I always managed to get 2 DA summons off, both with prolonged power pots. This was in a 900+ group so everything was dying pretty fast, could probably get more DA casts off in +15. Also with RP not resetting on boss pull in Mythic+ dungeons, I found the first DA cast to be particularly strong, in some cases I even had Double Doom stacked pre-boss pull.

For my total damage, Dark Arbiter did 7.5% of my damage which is pretty decent since you mostly AoE in dungeons. On each of the bosses, it did ~15%-20% of my damage. I don't have Sephuz btw, was running Prydaz and Aggramar's Stride.

[Dranora]

1. CoF is undertuned atm and a bad choice....maybe it will be better after DA hotfixes. You should try to get e AC, EU, EoC, DoS (all if them are better than CoF).
2. I just use DC to consume RP during DA. I cast Aotd (8sec before pull), use pre-pot (1sec before pull), use OB, use DT, 2x FS, 1x CS, DA, DC (as much as i can), use 1x FS again (only if i don't have 6 stacks), trigger AC, use blood elf racial, cast DC (instant when it is available).After that i FS again, use CS to dump stacks and still use DC instand (as long DA is alive). I perform good with that.

[Maxweii]

1. CoF is undertuned atm and a bad choice....maybe it will be better after DA hotfixes. You should try to get e AC, EU, EoC, DoS (all if them are better than CoF).

I know you meant this in good faith but you're absolute wrong.
Convergence isn't undertuned at all, and is the best trinket to pair with DA fight permitting. On something like Chrono you wouldn't use it with her, but in all other cases you would.

[Deleted]

Is EF supposed to sim higher than BS without bracers? I was simming stuff to see how big the VP buff would be and found out that using EF is already ~10k ahead

[Ealyssa]

I love it how they are trying to attach buffs to the least responsive and skill dependent parts of our playstyle.

Instead of buffing playstyle that actually requires half a brain to execute.

One is hotfixable the other not, simple as that...

[mrmsix6]

Is EF supposed to sim higher than BS without bracers? I was simming stuff to see how big the VP buff would be and found out that using EF is already ~10k ahead

This has been the case for me as well (without bracers), and the gap was even larger when I was using a +VP relic.

[Dranora]

I know you meant this in good faith but you're absolute wrong.
Convergence isn't undertuned at all, and is the best trinket to pair with DA fight permitting. On something like Chrono you wouldn't use it with her, but in all other cases you would.

Hmmm....idk. I got the 880 CoF and used it in SimC in different builds. And it was around 15k behind my EoC (with nightbane chest) in all situations. Maybe SimC is not up to date with it? Does CoF push the DA cd under 1min30sec? If yes i would agree with you....the sync with blood elf racial and Apocalyps would be amazing and fantastic strong.
The EoC crit buff is very strong too...it is always at 10 stacks when DA is on the highest dmg output during the last seconds. What do you think?

[Redclass]

Hmmm....idk. I got the 880 CoF and used it in SimC in different builds. And it was around 15k behind my EoC (with nightbane chest) in all situations. Maybe SimC is not up to date with it? Does CoF push the DA cd under 1min30sec? If yes i would agree with you....the sync with blood elf racial and Apocalyps would be amazing and fantastic strong.
The EoC crit buff is very strong too...it is always at 10 stacks when DA is on the highest dmg output during the last seconds. What do you think?

Well in most cases, I would argue that EoC isn't reliable to sim because NH bosses require a lot of movement, so keeping max stacks isn't realistic. But in this case, fights where you do take DA over SR are probably fights where you can indeed keep a high uptime on EoC stacks. So it may be viable to go with whatever sims highest.

[Maxweii]

Is EF supposed to sim higher than BS without bracers? I was simming stuff to see how big the VP buff would be and found out that using EF is already ~10k ahead

This has been the case for me as well (without bracers), and the gap was even larger when I was using a +VP relic.

Yes this is nothing new. Which is why in the 7.1.5 Unholy guide I worded it that EF has it's uses. Just currently it's tuning isn't high and away enough as to where it should be taken. That, combined with BS fights NH fights better.

Hmmm....idk. I got the 880 CoF and used it in SimC in different builds. And it was around 15k behind my EoC (with nightbane chest) in all situations. Maybe SimC is not up to date with it? Does CoF push the DA cd under 1min30sec? If yes i would agree with you....the sync with blood elf racial and Apocalyps would be amazing and fantastic strong.
The EoC crit buff is very strong too...it is always at 10 stacks when DA is on the highest dmg output during the last seconds. What do you think?

Eye of Command is about as powerful as a Hunger of the Pack of equal ilvl in raiding. Especially in Nighthold where we target swap a lot. Yeah you could say Augur would have a good use for it, but when you switch to the big add in P3 and lose all the stacks you lose a lot of power. Not having full power on such a high priority kill target, is really bad (same goes for Krosus and Trill).

And yes Convergence makes DA a roughly 1.5m CD.

[sunbrother]

I have shoulders and no bracers and have typically been playing necrosis+AWS+SR for ST.

Just to get a feel for the output of DA, I tried swapping out SR for DA and did a few tests on the silvermoon ST dummy. Was seeing ~20K underperformance with DA, so about 4%. Was trying 2m30s,2m45s sequences, so two casts of DA vs 1 cast garg.

The two issues I was really seeing are:
1. I had been trying to line up DoS with the apoc/death debuff. But if you line up for DoS, then when you cast DA you won't have it. So you are devaluing DoS by 10-15%.
2. As I mentioned it conflicts with necrosis. Devalues that talent since you want to spend 6-8 GCDs not spending rune power every 90s.

For people seeing better performance with DA, are you using it with IC+BS, and just swapping SR->DA? For me, without bracers, IC+BS is miles behind necrosis.

[Dranora]

Well in most cases, I would argue that EoC isn't reliable to sim because NH bosses require a lot of movement, so keeping max stacks isn't realistic. But in this case, fights where you do take DA over SR are probably fights where you can indeed keep a high uptime on EoC stacks. So it may be viable to go with whatever sims highest.

Yeah, i know what you mean. Fights with a lot of target switches will break down EoC.
I have the 885 EU, 865 EoC, 880 CoF....what trinkets would you guys take 4 raids and mythic+?

[Direpenguin]

Yeah well, fuck people who rerolled Unholy DK / started WoW playing Unholy DK / like Unholy more than Frost, ye?
I always hated the "your class / spec was strong in the past for X raidtiers so it being trash is justice!" argument.

And I know you (twice) said that you hope them to be competitive, but if you gonna speak your bit, so will I...

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So basically I should spam deathcoil until I have SotW, then spam CS?

Something something about all the smug Unholy DKs with their "if you really cared about your guild, you'd re-roll Unholy and just accept Frost sucks" bullshit for months and months and months on end.

Kinda sucks when the shoe is on the other foot and you're surprised the sympathy isn't flooding all over you?

To me, it has less to do with how long a spec was out in front, but the shitty attitudes from the Unholy players when they were top dog toward Frost players who wanted to be competitive along with them, not instead of them.

[Deleted]

Something something about all the smug Unholy DKs with their "if you really cared about your guild, you'd re-roll Unholy and just accept Frost sucks" bullshit for months and months and months on end.

Kinda sucks when the shoe is on the other foot and you're surprised the sympathy isn't flooding all over you?

To me, it has less to do with how long a spec was out in front, but the shitty attitudes from the Unholy players when they were top dog toward Frost players who wanted to be competitive along with them, not instead of them.

Well I'm the "rerolled Unholy DK" group, was raiding as WW Monk in WoD, started playing DK in Legion because I was tried of working my ass off only to be in the bottom third of damage meters. Then Unholy was good for a month or so, and now we have this shit going on, basically I'm in the same situation as I was with my Monk, only difference is that rerolling would take a longer time and more effort, than it would've been in WoD. (My frost weapon is around 880 ilvl, has only 30ish traits, etc)

So yeah, again, Unholy being stronger in the past and older Unholy players hurting Frost players' feelings doesn't really justify ruining my experience, and giving me shit because of the past, imho. (And it applies in general for everyone who is in the same shoes as I am)

[Phantombeard]

From the very begining, please lets skip the whole "both specs are somewhat the same, frost slightly ahead... just play what you like better". The margin is currently pretty big, and its going to only get bigger.

So lets face the fact that UH is eating dirt again, we were somewhat viable the first two weeks of NH, but then happend the same thing thats happening since begining of the expansion, everyone is geting more and more demage and UH is just the very same. On top of all that, to even reach this sad bottom of the pack as UH you have to own atleast two good legendaries one of them being bracers and second being either ring or belt, without those you can straight up stay in the city.

In my oppinion UH is one of the if not THE most entertaining spec currently in game, but for how RNG and not forgiving it is, we dont get reward by anything at all, not even a solid numbers. I was UH advocate for long long time, but this is geting slightly boring, when blizzard just throws us a bone (puts us on par with everyone else), the whole UH community gets happy, but 14 days later, we find out about our non existing scaling and we are back where we started.

So I would like to know your oppinion, if Iam talking total nonsense, or this is an actual problem thats needs solving, or maybe even throw in an idea how to solve this. And if you agree do you think we are geting any help any time soon (talking before or latest in 7.2).

If you think unholy is bad?? Play marksman hunter. Anyone with a Item level 20 points or less can out dps a hunter atm. If your IL is say 890 (Hunter) and any other spec in the game is (860 ish 870) they will almost always out dps you. 7.1.5 gutted the MM hunter. I would trade in my Bow any day for a 2hander and a abomination.

[Zensunni]

If you think unholy is bad?? Play marksman hunter. Anyone with a Item level 20 points or less can out dps a hunter atm. If your IL is say 890 (Hunter) and any other spec in the game is (860 ish 870) they will almost always out dps you. 7.1.5 gutted the MM hunter. I would trade in my Bow any day for a 2hander and a abomination.

MM almost 10% ahead of unholy overall. Please go troll somewhere else, this thread is about UH DKs.

[Deleted]

If you think unholy is bad?? Play marksman hunter. Anyone with a Item level 20 points or less can out dps a hunter atm. If your IL is say 890 (Hunter) and any other spec in the game is (860 ish 870) they will almost always out dps you. 7.1.5 gutted the MM hunter. I would trade in my Bow any day for a 2hander and a abomination.

Hope you joking, if not someone should reconsidere your access to the internet before you hurt yourself...
go click trough these: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=95
and tell me a single boss where is MM that awful, and while you are doing so, please notice how UH is being in last 3 on almost every fight, if there any parses for them...

Fortunatelly those buffs they are giving us, should help us get back into middle :-D

[PassingBy]

Something something about all the smug Unholy DKs with their "if you really cared about your guild, you'd re-roll Unholy and just accept Frost sucks" bullshit for months and months and months on end.

Kinda sucks when the shoe is on the other foot and you're surprised the sympathy isn't flooding all over you?

To me, it has less to do with how long a spec was out in front, but the shitty attitudes from the Unholy players when they were top dog toward Frost players who wanted to be competitive along with them, not instead of them.

Problem is that before in order to reroll you needed to adjust your gear and press a button to change talents.
Now you need to farm the freaking 54 traits again, hope for the drop of artifacts that you need (while the chance is lower, since you already have some).

I mean during WotLK i've played frost dw, i've played blood dps, i've played UH 2h, hell i've played uh dw at some point. But switching specs was not a big deal.
Now it is.

[Deleted]

If you think unholy is bad?? Play marksman hunter. Anyone with a Item level 20 points or less can out dps a hunter atm. If your IL is say 890 (Hunter) and any other spec in the game is (860 ish 870) they will almost always out dps you. 7.1.5 gutted the MM hunter. I would trade in my Bow any day for a 2hander and a abomination.

Im guessing you're not that good playing mm?

[Deleted]

Hunter mains...