No exponential AP demand, but less rewarding paragon

[Keashaa]

Hi,
after the Devs statement that they want to change the artifact power demand for paragon level from linear to more exponential, I see this very disencouraging. The consequence will be even more grind than before (artifact knowledge is way faster maximized than artifact power). Why not go the other way and make the paragon level less rewarding. Leave the linear AP demand and slow down the paragon level:

- paragon level 1: +5% (like now)
- paragon level 2: +2%
- paragon level 3: +1%
- paragon level 4: +0.7%
...

And so on. So if you want to do the grind hardcore you still will have an advantage but it's not that big anymore. Paragon level 10 to 20 shouldn't be that strong as paragon level 1 to 10. This would also help for alts and second / third weapons.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Depends entirely on how well AK scales along with it. This time AK scaled to the point before paragon levels and stayed there. If they make it scale up until the last paragon level then that is fine. If they don't they can fuck off with their grind..

[Dracullus]

Wait a minute. More linear system is = more painful it is for alts. End of story.

If they will make this exponential, there always will be some AK research on the background, so up-to-date chars will gain new traits on steady pace, hardcore will be only one step before rest and alts/newcomers will catch very fast to the rest.

[Deleted]

Yes it depends on AK scaling, but we already know the AK scaling.

(The linear or exponential scaling doesn't really matter much, except linear is more motivating and overall better)

We are to farm FOUR times more AP in 7.2.

This is blizzard heading 200 km/hour in the wrong direction.

They enhance the problem they want to help! It's outrageous.

[Svisalith]

Why not go the other way and make the paragon level less rewarding. Leave the linear AP demand and slow down the paragon level:

- paragon level 1: +5% (like now)
- paragon level 2: +2%
- paragon level 3: +1%
- paragon level 4: +0.7%

That's just a different way of doing the same thing that the currently proposed system does - setting up scaling so that you get a chunk of the paragon bonus early but get rapidly diminishing returns afterwards.

Example:

Person A spends 50 hours getting to Paragon 5 for +5% damage

Person B spends 200 hours, gets to Paragon 8 and has +8% damage

Person C spends 800 hours, gets to Paragon 11 and has +11% damage


------

Yes it depends on AK scaling, but we already know the AK scaling.

No, we have values that were thrown in and confirmed to be nothing like what the patch will ship with

(The linear or exponential scaling doesn't really matter much, except linear is more motivating and overall better)

It matters a lot. Linear promotes active grinding to the end while exponential creates a cliff that no amount of playing time can overcome.

Linear = somebody playing 100 hours has 10x the bonus of somebody playing 10 hours

Exponential = somebody playing 100 hours could have 5x or 2x or 1.3x the bonus of somebody who played for 10 hours, just depends on the tuning

We are required to farm FOUR times more AP in 7.2.

Again an old stat that was never true.

You should both read the blue post about AP in 7.2, it went over these systems and numbers

[Dracullus]

Yes it depends on AK scaling, but we already know the AK scaling.

(The linear or exponential scaling doesn't really matter much, except linear is more motivating and overall better)

We are to farm FOUR times more AP in 7.2.

This is blizzard heading 200 km/hour in the wrong direction.

They enhance the problem they want to help! It's outrageous.

No. You are lacking self control unlike most people, Blizzard came with alternative for you. At some point cost for new trait will be so ridiculous, so you will have to wait for next AK knowledge. Artifact Power is design as post max level progression, not a grind.

[Flurryfang]

Hi,
after the Devs statement that they want to change the artifact power demand for paragon level from linear to more exponential, I see this very disencouraging. The consequence will be even more grind than before (artifact knowledge is way faster maximized than artifact power). Why not go the other way and make the paragon level less rewarding. Leave the linear AP demand and slow down the paragon level:

- paragon level 1: +5% (like now)
- paragon level 2: +2%
- paragon level 3: +1%
- paragon level 4: +0.7%
...

And so on. So if you want to do the grind hardcore you still will have an advantage but it's not that big anymore. Paragon level 10 to 20 shouldn't be that strong as paragon level 1 to 10. This would also help for alts and second / third weapons.

This is not gonna change any behavier. The reward is still a reward and you gain it in the same rate. Why i don't completly agree with Blizzards "solution", it proberly will have an effect on player behavier when it comes to unhealthy farming. If you reduce the reward of AP by 20% for every mythic+ dungeon you do each week, people will slowly find a point, where it is no longer really viable to do it anymore and do other stuff. Just reducing the reward is not gonna stop the top elite from farming 10-12 hours a day just doing MoS.

[Deleted]

The exponential growth system is effectively a cap on AP grinding. It is what Artifact Knowledge should've been from the start: make it so that progressing through your artifact is basically madness until you unlock the next level of AK, after which you can farm 2-3 traits again before running into a wall.

Linear growth made it so the carrot was never too far away and there was a constant incentive to keep on farming MoS.

[Accendor]

Depends entirely on how well AK scales along with it. This time AK scaled to the point before paragon levels and stayed there. If they make it scale up until the last paragon level then that is fine. If they don't they can fuck off with their grind..

Why don't you enjoy that you have something to do and are not sitting in your garrison anymore all day?

[KaPe]

Why don't you enjoy that you have something to do and are not sitting in your garrison anymore all day?

Because I did that "something" hundred of times already. Killing the same npc over and over, every day or two isn't very engaging type of content. Doesn't matter if it's random World Quest mob or dungeon boss - been there, done that, I don't feel like doing this for (3+) more months.

It's not enough to have "something to do", especially if that something is highly repetitive and gets tiring quickly.

[BergErr]

Im just afraid it will end up being so that we wait 75days~ until its worth to try get any extra AP.

Still 10 ppl in my 3/10 mythic team missing 54 traits, guess it wasn't too easy this time around (but few with 54 in 2+ specs by now).
The paragon traits should be there to make raiding easier, not mandatory like its now.

[Deleted]

This is not gonna change any behavier. The reward is still a reward and you gain it in the same rate. Why i don't completly agree with Blizzards "solution", it proberly will have an effect on player behavier when it comes to unhealthy farming. If you reduce the reward of AP by 20% for every mythic+ dungeon you do each week, people will slowly find a point, where it is no longer really viable to do it anymore and do other stuff. Just reducing the reward is not gonna stop the top elite from farming 10-12 hours a day just doing MoS.

I'm not 100% certain on this, but I'm pretty sure they mentioned something that the weekly M+ chest will give by far the highest AP reward.
I think that this is a pretty good solution, you want players to play your game as much as possible, so rewards outside of the higher gains that can be done once/twice a week should be viable too.

So with the upcomming changes, they'll make it so that you always get rewarded somewhat, but the biggest reward is also available for people that do not play that long/often.

[Puri]

Hi,
after the Devs statement that they want to change the artifact power demand for paragon level from linear to more exponential, I see this very disencouraging. The consequence will be even more grind than before (artifact knowledge is way faster maximized than artifact power). Why not go the other way and make the paragon level less rewarding. Leave the linear AP demand and slow down the paragon level:

What makes you think that bolded statement? After their bluepost they might increase AK until the very last lockout of the xpac.
Now we have the problem that AK is maximised before AP, and they admitted that was a mistake so they very likely change that with 7.2

[Deleted]

Can we just not have the paragon points? They are not fun in any way. Just flat damage increases that are vital for raiders.

Just let people finish their artifact and be able to work on their off-specs and alts. Why does it have to be this endless grind? As a raider, even if its a 0.1 increase, i am going to put all my points in it because it benefits the raid more than going to have fun playing an alt or off-spec.

It's fundamentally flawed. Wow is better than this devs. Stop breaking the fun parts.

[Blackmist]

I wish that last artifact power trait wasn't actually from artifact power, and was just from "doing stuff" like in Diablo 3.

Collect herbs? Little bit of Paragon Points. World Quest, reward + PP. Mythic+, get some PP.

You can keep AP as something to unlock actual traits (and maybe replace it with gold or extra paragon once you've capped it), but the constant grind has really marred this expansion. Especially when they flip flop on which spec is best. And then you get bitched at by the guild no-lifers who play nothing but WoW all day.

It's just too much like work to stay current, where my ideal play style in previous expansions is to play frequently until I'm bored, then just do my three raids a week. And I can't do that. It's all or nothing with Legion.

[Deleted]

No. You are lacking self control unlike most people, Blizzard came with alternative for you. At some point cost for new trait will be so ridiculous, so you will have to wait for next AK knowledge. Artifact Power is design as post max level progression, not a grind.

No. This is nothing about self control. What you say is not the core issue.

The math is done from maximum AK, I do understand the scaling.

But it's not really very motivating for either casuals or hardcore players to have this system with insane bars.

Why is it not possible for developers to make goals that are designed to be reached? Instead, once it's reached, they increase it.

It's a flawed system, no one likes the grind. So why enhance it.

[Puri]

The math is done from maximum AK, I do understand the scaling.

We don't know what the maximum AK will be like, nor do we know anything about the scaling. The 7.2 numbers from the PTR were already announced to change.

Instead, we are focusing on fixing the mistake of flat cost scaling at the end of the progression, and instead keeping the increases exponential throughout, while also strengthening Artifact Knowledge as a core pacing and catch-up mechanism. These changes should be visible in an upcoming PTR build.

[Soulwell]

Im just afraid it will end up being so that we wait 75days~ until its worth to try get any extra AP.

Still 10 ppl in my 3/10 mythic team missing 54 traits, guess it wasn't too easy this time around (but few with 54 in 2+ specs by now).
The paragon traits should be there to make raiding easier, not mandatory like its now.

I find it hard to believe some people in your raid group have 2 weapons at 54 and they're only 3/10 that raid with people that aren't 54.

No. This is nothing about self control. What you say is not the core issue.

The math is done from maximum AK, I do understand the scaling.

But it's not really very motivating for either casuals or hardcore players to have this system with insane bars.

Why is it not possible for developers to make goals that are designed to be reached? Instead, once it's reached, they increase it.

It's a flawed system, no one likes the grind. So why enhance it.

It's motivating for hardcore players, it's a damage increase what are you even talking about? Saying nobody likes the grind is just talking out of your ass, I find doing mythic+s fun as shit because it gives me something to do. My weapon has been at 54 since before nighthold release and I still do it. Don't lump others in with your shit opinion.

[Holofernes]

i think its clearly ment to be unfarmable, u take what you get, and at some point if you are playing actively, u will get the limit, but its not expected for anything.

[Deztru]

you can't make the system desirable, simple as that.