What makes WF/TF a problem for people?

[Yunaqt]

Again, there are reasons why healer rankings are way more irrelevant than dps rankings in the first place and I addressed them already in my first post. For that very reason healer simcraft is really not used (does it even exist?). It doesn't matter if you think you did or didn't do great - hps in a farming content has a lot more to do with your comp and other healers than your own actual skill or gear. I'm sorry I simply cannot make it more clear. Being that clueless, I think you're not the best person to evaluate anyone's logs really

I realize there is a difference in the make up of logs as a healer but legendaries are a complaint that's shared across all roles alongside the word 'viable'. And as I play a healer with what Resto Druids consider pretty trash tier legendaries those are the logs I have to work with as my old warlock is pretty outdated at this point.

Regardless, my point was a quick look at Warcraftlogs shows a similar pattern - Of course BIS legendaries are what you want, however players are able to perform at a top level on these encounters using such gems as the "Reduced movement speed by 60% when affected by corruption" on an Affi lock.

Many complaints around legendaries providing obscene increases come from players who have much more fundamental flaws in their gameplay which would make up more than the difference of a BIS legendary if they fix.

---

Going back on topic as I said previously I love TFing the main reason behind that rationale is maintaining replay-ability on older content that in previous expansions, would be left for dead only to be run by horrendous pugs or over geared groups for achievements. Do I go there expecting to see MTF BTI's on Ursoc? No. But there's a chance and contributes towards your chances to get a legendary & AP so it doesn't feel like a complete waste of time.

- - - Updated - - -

it doesn't matter though, personally i'm having fun this expansion, and none of this complaining is detracting from that.

Agree I am loving this expansion, I know eventually i'll get the legendaries I want but i'm not ready to flail my arms in disgust if I don't straight away. Same to be said with TFing, it's a nice surprise when I open a token and get a socket or a H cloak and it goes up to 905ilvl but if it rolls vanilla it doesn't really bother me. Maybe i'm just used to it since WoD was very much the same in that aspect.

[Heathy]

Agree I am loving this expansion, I know eventually i'll get the legendaries I want but i'm not ready to flail my arms in disgust if I don't straight away. Same to be said with TFing, it's a nice surprise when I open a token and get a socket or a H cloak and it goes up to 905ilvl but if it rolls vanilla it doesn't really bother me. Maybe i'm just used to it since WoD was very much the same in that aspect.

most ppl don't know what true rng can be like, i've said this multiple times in different threads but, classic rng was WAY WAY worst than the wf/tf rng of today, even the legendary rng is NOTHING compared to the level of rng in vanilla.

i'm sorry but many many ppl here don't know what true rng is until you've run a raid over 30 times for 1 item and it still doesn't drop. 30 weeks for 1 item. that is real fucking rng. how many ppl on this forum raided in vanilla and didn't see an item they wanted?

you can even today, test vanilla rng, stratholm, barons mount, try farming that mount, tally how many runs it takes. that is what the rng was like, ppl think wf/tf is an rng nightmare. hahaha some of you have not seen what i have seen.

the rng today is tame, compared to the rng of the past.

[Effenz]

most ppl don't know what true rng can be like, i've said this multiple times in different threads but, classic rng was WAY WAY worst than the wf/tf rng of today, even the legendary rng is NOTHING compared to the level of rng in vanilla.

i'm sorry but many many ppl here don't know what true rng is until you've run a raid over 30 times for 1 item and it still doesn't drop. how many ppl on this forum raided in vanilla and didn't see an item they wanted?

you can even today, test vanilla rng, stratholm, barons mount, try farming that mount, tally how many runs it takes. that is what the rng was like, ppl think wf/tf is an rng nightmare. hahaha some of you have not seen what i have seen.

Im trying to farm T1 on my druid. I got 2 pieces in 4 runs. I just imagine if I had other kids to roll against.

[Heathy]

Im trying to farm T1 on my druid. I got 2 pieces in 4 runs. I just imagine if I had other kids to roll against.

it took me either 37 or 38 runs to see one pair of transcendence legs from ragnaros, with a guild that raided with 9 priests.

seriously, the rng today is nothing, its babies first rng compared to the ruthless rng we had to put up with.

honestly half the ppl today would have a freaking aneurysm if they had to put up with that, the whine would be earth shattering.

I ofc was a priest so i didn't really pay much attention to ppl going for the hand of raggy but from my vague memory, you needed 10 ingots from golmagg and they were apparently a 30% drop something like that, well yeah, he could still go 3-4-5 weeks in a row without dropping 1. again another fun part of the rng. something today that would spawn a threadnaught so loud it would blot out the sun.

the funny part about rng and legendaries during vanilla, i only ever saw one binding and i'm pretty sure i got saved to molten core nearly every single week of 2006, there were probably a few missed raids but i was there pretty much every single raid, the only binding i ever saw was in a pug a month or so before tbc released, my guild must have done over 50 mc clears and we actually saw no bindings.

its not fun when you want an item and when you finally do get that item, a new expansion is right around the corner anyway. i think the bad luck protection should make it so that everyone should have a decent selection of legendaries to choose from near the end and the problems that seem like problems now, won't be a problem in the end. no doubt there will be some ppl who never get their bis, as is the way with rng, your never guaranteed to get an item but today, the chances of you getting the ones you want are many many fold better than they were in the past.

[cFortyfive]

classic rng was WAY WAY worst than the wf/tf rng of today, even the legendary rng is NOTHING compared to the level of rng in vanilla.

Classic was a decade ago and there are private servers for the few morons who do care. Both the game and the people playing have fundamentally changed in pretty much every aspect - even in tbc and wotlk that change was already happening.

[Heathy]

Classic was a decade ago and there are private servers for the few morons who do care. Both the game and the people playing have fundamentally changed in pretty much every aspect - even in tbc and wotlk that change was already happening.

ok? ppl are saying they think the rng today is bad, i'm pointing out that ppl really don't know shit about bad rng. i bet half the ppl on this forum haven't seen what actual bad rng is really like.

either you have wf/tf rolls, or we go back to the 1% drop days, where it STILL takes 100s of runs to see a drop of an item you want.

classic rng, running a dungeon 50-100 times for 1 item.
legion rng, running a dungeon 50-100 times for wf/tf on multiple different items.

you still have to run the dungeon a lot of times to achieve a guaranteed drop of the item you want.

there isn't any real difference between running a dungeon 100s of times for a 1% epic drop, as there is in running a dungeon 100 times for a TF item.

in the end your still running a dungeon 100 times. i don't believe i have to actually spell that out.

personally i've played since classic with mostly static loot, its more fun and interesting today, there is more variety and more decisions in what pieces are better performance upgrades. when every loot you get is a guaranteed upgrade, or always worst than what you have equipped, there is no thought at all in your gearing options. everything is automatically better. thats a boring bland system.

its more interesting and dynamic when loot upgrades can come from any relevant content. it makes all content equally worth doing, upto a certain point.

it helps if you read the thread a bit at least a few posts before jumping into a conversation without even reading what it was mostly about. i don't mind ppl jumping in quoting me and speaking their mind but at least bring a tiny bit of consistency.

you obviously just read my post and started mashing keys, follow the conversation, then post a reply. you might actually make sense then. because i don't know what you were really talking about.

i too don't give a hoot about vanilla it can stay in the past for all i care, i was comparing RNG of today VS RNG of the past.

again RNG loot drops today are much more balanced than the RNG of the past.

as far as i'm concerned, i really don't care what happens with the loot in this game, I already have a life time t-mog. for me, it really doesn't matter, whatever i wanted to accomplish in this game has been done and then some. these days, i don't need the elitist mentality, i play to have fun, that is all, not for any specific meta.

[Rusken]

It's the pathetic Mythic Raiders that believe their accomplishments are lessened because someone else got a similar item from something different. The same kind of people probably get really angry when an expansion is released because all the time they wasted raiding was just that, wasted time.

For 95% of the playerbase, WF/TF offer a nice additional reward occasionally, for the 5% Mythic raiders, it's another arbitrary number they feel they have to reach to be "viable". It's a higher number so of course they HAVE to reach it, even though it will make literally no difference. Then they get shitty with the system in place, which is fine for the VAST majority of the playerbase. RNG can be frustrating, sure, but it's a huge part of MMO's, it always has been and will continue to always be a major component.

[cFortyfive]

ppl are saying they think the rng today is bad, i'm pointing out that ppl really don't know shit about bad rng. i bet half the ppl on this forum haven't seen what actual bad rng is really like.

Doubt that considering the amount of players who even play those dogturd asia grinders but then again nobody gives a fuck about vanilla and I don't know anyone who was seriously running strath a 100 times for a goddamn turd like a skullforgereaver btw.

[Heathy]

Doubt that considering the amount of players who even play those dogturd asia grinders but then again nobody gives a fuck about vanilla and I don't know anyone who was seriously running strath a 100 times for a goddamn turd like a skullforgereaver btw.

holy shit your a grumpy fucker aren't ya who shit in your corn flakes this morning?

actually don't answer that i'd rather not talk to a muppet like you. thank fuck for the ignore list, sweet ignorance here i come.

at no point did i mention asian grindy mmos, at no point did i say anyone cared about vanilla the whole point was about comparing rng rate between the two times. ofc noone cares about vanilla apart from the die hard legacy crew.

the whole point was a comparison, you didn't have to get all uppity about it like some crying child.

I like the skullreaver, i still haven't seen it drop, so thats not everyone, i still see ppl using it, again it wasn't about the content, how awesome it is or any fucking thing like that, but ofc you didn't read you just jumped in like a know-it-all and started mouthing off.

welcome to ignore though i'm sure i won't miss your varied contributions.

has vanilla become a trigger word on this forum, did i miss a memo? i mention vanilla and c45 goes off on a vanilla hating tangent.

[Deleted]

You should really be able to "forge" stuff if you get the same drop again. And have the limits for example HC -> 875 - 890 (so getting the same drop you could forge your current one with 5 ilvl or get a socket)

[Dizzeeyooo]

either you have wf/tf rolls, or we go back to the 1% drop days, where it STILL takes 100s of runs to see a drop of an item you want.

because items in wotlk/cata/mop had a 1% drop rate
because vanilla 2 items per 40 people or legion 1000000 versions of every single item in the game are the only two possible options for gear acquisition

[Heathy]

because items in wotlk/cata/mop had a 1% drop rate
because vanilla 2 items per 40 people or legion 1000000 versions of every single item in the game are the only two possible options for gear acquisition

hyperbole?

iirc certain bosses dropped more than 2 loots, the problem was in the actual drops, raggy has so many loots that some of them just never dropped. or dropped really really infrequently.

the comparison was that today, it doesn't take long to see a loot you want even if it not titanforged. in the past there were times where you could raid and raid and raid, weeks months and still not see the item you wanted. the rng was decidedly worst.

I much prefer the loot system today where getting specific items doesn't take too long, and tf upgrades are nice surprises that keep the loot feeling fresh and interesting.

i don't have to defend the wf/tf system because even if you don't like it, i very much doubt its getting removed during an expansion. so, suck it up guys, 2 more tiers of wf/tf farming to come.

seriously though, give me random loot upgrade chances over 1% drops and valor farming and item upgrading, I'd rather not go back to having to farm 4k valour each week for caps. that was tedious. it was a fun system spending badges on upgrading gear but yeah i don't like being forced to badge cap every week it feels too grindy and forced.

[Dizzeeyooo]

hyperbole?

not sure why its hyperbole when you literally state that the only two models for gear acquisition possible in this game are vanilla 2 items per boss or legion 10000 versions of every item

I don't remember 25 man bosses in wotlk dropping only 2 items, or every item having 10000 different possible ways to drop
I don't remember 25 man bosses in cata dropping only 2 items, or every item having 10000 different possible ways to drop
I don't remember 25 man bosses in mop dropping only 2 items, or every item having 10000 different possible ways to drop

and yet you say:

either you have wf/tf rolls, or we go back to the 1% drop days

so why is it hyperbole?

[Heathy]

not sure why its hyperbole when you literally state that the only two models for gear acquisition possible in this game are vanilla 2 items per boss or legion 10000 versions of every item

I don't remember 25 man bosses in wotlk dropping only 2 items, or every item having 10000 different possible ways to drop
I don't remember 25 man bosses in cata dropping only 2 items, or every item having 10000 different possible ways to drop
I don't remember 25 man bosses in mop dropping only 2 items, or every item having 10000 different possible ways to drop

and yet you say:

so why is it hyperbole?

its hyperbole because your inflating the numbers there aren't 1000s of versions of every item. your inflating your numbers to try to reinforce your point. but your hyperbole is bullshit so your point is bullshit.. does that spell it out for you?

maybe go look up the definition of hyperbole and you'll realise what your doing. its too fucking obvious because i play the same freaking game and know for a fact that there are not 10000000s of different versions of items, there aren't even 100 different version they can only roll between certain ilvls. there are only a handful of tertiary stats.

honestly i've been reading this forum now for about 5 hrs straight and its like ppl are deliberately going out of their way to prove how much of moron they can be. its like a competition or something, a bit like 'kids say the funniest things' but more like 'mmo champion posters say the most retarded things'

[kamuimac]

So from the "worst feature of legion" thread, a ton of people mention Warforge Titanforge as one of the main issues, without explanation.

Why is that exactly.

Scenario 1:
Player 1 complains about Player 2 getting a 925 item from LFR/WQ, this has an astronomical low chance on a BiS piece you might see it happen maybe once or twice on the same player within current content. (7.2 will likely raise the TF limit again) To me this is just elitism and not a flaw in the system. Also Tier gear only comes from LFR or higher raids.

- No problem here as there is no way you can a full 925 BIS gear set from 860, even if it happens on 1 piece, it's not 12 (14 slots, 2 legendaries)
I think a lot of this comes from an illusion that it seems to happen all the time cause 1 player out of 25 might get a high titanforge, it doesn't mean they get 10+ pieces that way without some insane amount of lottery luck.

Seems like a player created problem of feeling all high and mighty having high raid gear and caring too much about other people's gear. (those people often tend to call casuals/LFR plebs/scrubs etc to inflate their ego.

Scenario 2:
Player 1 Farms heroic nighthold, Player 2 Farms mythic Nighthold. Player 1 wants the same itemlevel as player 2 but not step in mythic, player 1's heroic gear always needs to titanforge to be on par with mythic, mythic gear in turn can go 15-25 beyond it's base to hit the 925 cap.

- No problem here , player 1 doesn't do the highest designed difficulty raid content and expect to have the same gear, however player 1 always needs RNG to go Titanforge, while player 2's gear titanforge is a bonus. This is a Player created problem.

Scenario 3:
Mythic Raider 1 has a BIS item go 925 Titanforge, but instead of a socket you get Leech or Avoidance.

- No problem here, yes it's shit bad luck RNG, but really nit picking at this point unless you are 925+ equip.

wf/tf is not bad system in itself if it was combined with old model badge system which would give you some guaranteed raid quality gear to works towards - there is no worse feeling that geting 900+ itlv titanforge trinket on the alt that you barely touch when you main is still runing around with DMF one because shit rng.

[Dizzeeyooo]

i play the same freaking game and know for a fact that there are not 10000000s of different versions of items, there aren't even 100 different version they can only roll between certain ilvls. there are only a handful of tertiary stats

ok so lets use real numbers then
if you raid mythic nh, every single item has between 40-60 different versions possible, depending on the boss it drops from
if you raid heroic nh, every single item has between 70-90 different versions possible, depending on the boss it drops from
if you raid normal nh, every single item has between 100-120 different versions possible, depending on the boss it drops from

doesn't make my point any less valid, there are other loot options possible than just vanilla 2 items per 40 people and legion 40-120 different versions of every single current content item in the game

[Heathy]

the main point is that, today, you get a lot more chances at loot than what you had in the past, in vanilla i could get saved to say, mc, zg and aq 20.. thats 3 lockouts and maybe 20-30 chances at loot per week.

today there are so many chances that it basically blows those 20-30 out the water.

as far as wf/tf goes you do not need to farm them, you do not need tf gear to progress.
everyone will easily be geared enough to jump straight into ToS by simply getting saved to as much current content as you can. progress into the next tier doesn't require you to be over ilvl 900 for normal and heroic. if anything ToS heroic will drop ilvl 910 or 915 and so it will require 900ilvl as a baseline. but normal should only require 890.

so if you are 890 right now, you can farm normal ToS when that is a thing, and get the last 10ilvls you need to move into heroic.

considering that patch and the raid itself is probably 2 or more months away, there is still plenty of time to achieve ilvl 890. hell the raid finder for ToS will probably only require 865 or 870 if it follows the same trend we have now. which means you can still progress through the next tier if you jump into it at a lower ilvl.

again if you waste your time over farming for TF rolls now, you will be doing exactly that, wasting your time, that gear will not last. its not worth the effort for how long the item will last you. be content with the items you get, because you will replace them for better ones.

again let me sound it out, you do not... need full titanforged gear to make progress in the current content, you do not need full titanforged gear to move into the next tier of content. titanforged gear is a bonus, not a requirement.

there will be plenty of time to farm the last tier of the expansion for TF rolls. that gear will actually last you until you replace it in the next expansion. the gear everyone is wearing now, will be completely replaced within the next 4-6 months. and the gear you end up getting will also get replaced in 7.3 when ever that comes along.

so by all mean burn out farming the crap out of titanforge, i really don't give a shit, but it is pointless to do it for the first tier.

the content is balanced around the base ilvl of gear, you don't need specific gear you need 840 to run en normal, you need 850 for heroic, you need 865~ for nh normal, you need 875~ for heroic. none of those pieces of gear that gives you that ilvl need to be wf or titanforged for you to make progress, sure it definitely helps if some items drop for you and roll higher but progress should be possible with the default items.

[jabbabot]

People just get real salty when they see something they want, and someone else gets it!

[Battlebeard]

I hate running the same content over and over again to possibly get an upgrade. I want solid rewards so that you can plan what to run more efficiently. Sure there is always RNG since you never know if a gear will drop at all BUT if it drop, it should drop in it's best form. Less RNG = good!

[Matthias]

I hate running the same content over and over again to possibly get an upgrade. I want solid rewards so that you can plan what to run more efficiently. Sure there is always RNG since you never know if a gear will drop at all BUT if it drop, it should drop in it's best form. Less RNG = good!

I think the beauty of this expansion is that old content doesn't become obsolete so quickly. I mean as much as I hate doing my Timewalking Quest I can appreciate going back to dungeons and doing them as relevant content. It's tragic that pretty much 90% of the game is barely used at max level.

Titanforge gear and Legendaries, despite their flaws give you reason to leave your Order Hall. Each week I know I need to clear Heroic Nighthold until I get full 890 gear, and one Mythic Dungeon my 15, for the cache. After which I can either not log on again which is fine, or fish for Legendaries and Upgrades in M+, EN, ToV, NH Norm, etc.