Blizzard have effectively gotten rid of flying

[Devilyaki]

Amazing how many people like getting pissed on and having it called rain.

[Dormie]

These are your posts from the last five pages. I guess you might have had other posts, so I am going to ask:

Did you ever say anything apart from "you lost the argument" and "I am treating you like you deserve"?

Do you have any posts expanding on how the argument was lost exactly?

Anything?

You realize these threads have gone on for hundreds and hundreds of pages for like 2 years like I've said. I gave up a while ago, occasionally I'll put effort into a post, but it's usually met with some kind of goal post moving or just "nuh uh".
You need to understand that it's impossible to even make an argument when non-fliers just deny that flying impacts everyone. They just act thickheaded and just tell you not to fly. So no matter what I say if they're just going to say that, what else am I supposed to do?

I was watching the Joe Rogan podcast with Neil Degrasse Tyson earlier and he gave an example talking about people that don't believe we went to the moon. He said to one of the nonbelievers, what would it take to convince you that we went to the moon? And the guy said pictures of the apollo landing now. They showed him that proof. His response was, "well NASA could have fabricated those". Neil said after that point that he's done, he satisfied what the guy said it would take for him to believe and he still couldn't. Podcast is here and it's in the first hour somewhere if you care: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhHtBqsGAoA
That's essentially what I'm met with here.

The thing is that admitting flight affects everyone doesn't even change much, it doesn't change the whole conversation. It just disallows flier fanatics from dismissing everything under the guise of "then don't fly". And means acceptance that you may be promoting a suppression of another playstyle like you say no-fliers are.
Until people accept that part of this I can't do much other than ridicule their unwillingness to accept it.

[rda]

You realize these threads have gone on for hundreds and hundreds of pages for like 2 years like I've said. I gave up a while ago, occasionally I'll put effort into a post, but it's usually met with some kind of goal post moving or just "nuh uh".
You need to understand that it's impossible to even make an argument when non-fliers just deny that flying impacts everyone. They just act thickheaded and just tell you not to fly. So no matter what I say if they're just going to say that, what else am I supposed to do?

I was watching the Joe Rogan podcast with Neil Degrasse Tyson earlier and he gave an example talking about people that don't believe we went to the moon. He said to one of the nonbelievers, what would it take to convince you that we went to the moon? And the guy said pictures of the apollo landing now. They showed him that proof. His response was, "well NASA could have fabricated those". Neil said after that point that he's done, he satisfied what the guy said it would take for him to believe and he still couldn't. Podcast is here and it's in the first hour somewhere if you care: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhHtBqsGAoA
That's essentially what I'm met with here.

The thing is that admitting flight affects everyone doesn't even change much, it doesn't change the whole conversation. It just disallows flier fanatics from dismissing everything under the guise of "then don't fly". And means acceptance that you may be promoting a suppression of another playstyle like you say no-fliers are.
Until people accept that part of this I can't do much other than ridicule their unwillingness to accept it.

I didn't ask about what Joe Rogan had to say about the nonbelievers.

I am asking you a simple question: do you have any posts at all that discuss flying instead of state that "you lost the argument"? Can you link them? How specifically was the argument "lost"?

Because you know, you seem to have all the time in the world to keep posting these "you are wrong" and "it's been lost" and stories about NASA and moon, but I am still to see even one post from you that actually explains why you think the fliers have "lost" the argument. I mean, I am asking you for the third time now, how many more times should I ask before you finally say or link a post of yours with the explanation of why you are right and flyers are wrong (heck, I don't even know what your position is, all I know is that in your opinion, flyers have "lost", no idea why)??? Will I ever get an answer?

[deadman1]

yes they do, you just keep acting as if there's a real choice.

If you agree there is no real choice then you agree that flying is superior.

[Dormie]

If you agree there is no real choice then you agree that flying is superior.

It being OP is the problem with flying, not flying itself. Fast travel would be superior to that. I don't want it either.

I didn't ask about what Joe Rogan had to say about the nonbelievers.

I am asking you a simple question: do you have any posts at all that discuss flying instead of state that "you lost the argument"? Can you link them? How specifically was the argument "lost"?

Because you know, you seem to have all the time in the world to keep posting these "you are wrong" and "it's been lost" and stories about NASA and moon, but I am still to see even one post from you that actually explains why you think the fliers have "lost" the argument. I mean, I am asking you for the third time now, how many more times should I ask before you finally say or link a post of yours with the explanation of why you are right and flyers are wrong (heck, I don't even know what your position is, all I know is that in your opinion, flyers have "lost", no idea why)??? Will I ever get an answer?

Find them yourself.

[Ztranger]

They really have. By only enabling it when it doesn't matter anymore.

7.2 will enable flying, but it will be done after people have spent months on the Broken Isles doing their quests while not flying. After we unlock it, that will probably be it in terms of content, before they release the Argus patch. At that point we won't need to fly on the Broken Isles, because we'll be on Argus, which will probably be not flyable either.

It's just like with WoD, where we were only able to fly once nobody needed to anymore anyway. Because the expansion was over. When the flying patch came out, I had 2 days of gametime left. And I didn't renew my sub at that point and went on a 1-year break, because the expansion was over anyway.

This will be the standard now. Flying is gone.

I think you are forgetting levling alts, in WoD I leveled 8 alts to 100 after flying, to make it was painless as possible. In this expansion I plan to do the same thing, level alts to 110 once flying is unlocked.

[Deleted]

Engineering cloak, Emerald Winds, Hunter feathers.

Who says there's no flying in this game?

[deadman1]

It being OP is the problem with flying, not flying itself. Fast travel would be superior to that. I don't want it either.

OP by what definition? It helps you skip trivial quest mobs? It lets you bypass WPvP that has been dead since patch 1.5.0? Why would anyone self inflict time gated travel on themselves? Why would you want to spend more time doing something with zero net gain?

Leveling on the ground and getting max flying at max level is a flawless middle ground, I have yet to hear an objective reason to counter that.

[Dormie]

OP by what definition? It helps you skip trivial quest mobs? It lets you bypass WPvP that has been dead since patch 1.5.0?

WPvP isn't dead, it's actually more alive than it's been in a while. And that's thanks a lot to World Quests in conjunction with no flying. Especially with CRZ. I could prove this to you in 5 minutes.

Look at using a glider with a toy. You can still skip a good chunk and more easily get where you're going, but it's limited, aka balanced. Indefinite flying any time you're outside is as high as you could put the bar short of increasing flying mount speed or adding fast travel.
That's why this is such a non-issue, they give you tools to get around easily, which is what people are complaining about. You calling mobs trivial doesn't make them so.

[Okacz]

WPvP isn't dead, it's actually more alive than it's been in a while. And that's thanks a lot to World Quests in conjunction with no flying. Especially with CRZ. I could prove this to you in 5 minutes.

Look at using a glider with a toy. You can still skip a good chunk and more easily get where you're going, but it's limited, aka balanced. Indefinite flying any time you're outside is as high as you could put the bar short of increasing flying mount speed or adding fast travel.
That's why this is such a non-issue, they give you tools to get around easily, which is what people are complaining about. You calling mobs trivial doesn't make them so.

Many people love the act of flight itself. Not only because of the convenience (I'd wager even when flying will be implemented, I'll be using Whistle and FP a lot anyway), but because of how fun it is. You can explore zones you never thought you would, you can move freely around without tripping on every root in the ground, you can use your badass flying mounts. It's a cool feature on its own. Whistle and FPs are not it's equivalents in any way.

[Deleted]

Many people love the act of flight itself. Not only because of the convenience (I'd wager even when flying will be implemented, I'll be using Whistle and FP a lot anyway), but because of how fun it is. You can explore zones you never thought you would, you can move freely around without tripping on every root in the ground, you can use your badass flying mounts. It's a cool feature on its own. Whistle and FPs are not it's equivalents in any way.

This. There is nothing better than jumping off somewhere and turning into raven/owl midair, as a druid. I miss it.

[rda]

Find them yourself.

OK.

I found "them", and I am sorry to say, but all your points have been debunked already. So, you've been proven wrong and lost the argument.

Find out where and how your points have been debunked yourself.

It's a two way road, dear.

[deadman1]

WPvP isn't dead, it's actually more alive than it's been in a while. And that's thanks a lot to World Quests in conjunction with no flying. Especially with CRZ. I could prove this to you in 5 minutes.

It rare that people engage in WPvP outside of the designated pvp WQs.

Look at using a glider with a toy. You can still skip a good chunk and more easily get where you're going, but it's limited, aka balanced.

Balanced by who's definition? I think travel shouldn't be a point of contention in this game, I shouldn't have to think twice about travel in a game about killing demons.

Indefinite flying any time you're outside is as high as you could put the bar short of increasing flying mount speed or adding fast travel.
That's why this is such a non-issue, they give you tools to get around easily, which is what people are complaining about.

Again, how does me flying give me a better arena rating? or kill mythic bosses faster? it has no relation to anything other than itself, therefore it isn't OP, travel can't be OP. It's just travel.

You calling mobs trivial doesn't make them so.

If you have issues with quest mobs in the open world at max level you have no business playing the game.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll say this part again since you didn't respond to it earlier

Why would anyone self inflict time gated travel on themselves? Why would you want to spend more time doing something with zero net gain?

Leveling on the ground and getting max flying at max level is a flawless middle ground, I have yet to hear an objective reason to counter that.

[rda]

WPvP isn't dead, it's actually more alive than it's been in a while. And that's thanks a lot to World Quests in conjunction with no flying. Especially with CRZ. I could prove this to you in 5 minutes.

Wow, 5 minutes, really. Go ahead, prove it.

Keep in mind that, say, MoP had plenty of your so-called "world PVP" and the overall number of players is now significantly smaller.

[SirCowdog]

I know, its literally the same people throwing the same arguments back and forth for over 3 years now. Personally I am fine with the approach blizzard has taken don't want flying taken out or have it unrestricted. This middle way seems reasonable.

Have you considered that it's the same people and arguments for that long because nothing significant has actually changed for flying in that time?

Also: Obligatory "How is Pathfinder in any way "reasonable"?"

[Phlegethon]

They really have. By only enabling it when it doesn't matter anymore.

7.2 will enable flying, but it will be done after people have spent months on the Broken Isles doing their quests while not flying. After we unlock it, that will probably be it in terms of content, before they release the Argus patch. At that point we won't need to fly on the Broken Isles, because we'll be on Argus, which will probably be not flyable either.

It's just like with WoD, where we were only able to fly once nobody needed to anymore anyway. Because the expansion was over. When the flying patch came out, I had 2 days of gametime left. And I didn't renew my sub at that point and went on a 1-year break, because the expansion was over anyway.

This will be the standard now. Flying is gone.

I'm waiting for flying to lvl my 6 alts, so there's that.
Anyway, moan, yawn.

[Deleted]

Have you considered that it's the same people and arguments for that long because nothing significant has actually changed for flying in that time?

Also: Obligatory "How is Pathfinder in any way "reasonable"?"

Yeah I know, thats why im amazed you guys are still going strong. Also I dont really want to get into an argument but with regards to the pathfinder its almost all stuff Ill do anyway so it feels like a cool reward. I do hope blizz later adds something to powergame the reputation part, having to still do Draenor dailies to get flying there if you missed WoD is stupid.

[rda]

Yeah I know, thats why im amazed you guys are still going strong. Also I dont really want to get into an argument but with regards to the pathfinder its almost all stuff Ill do anyway so it feels like a cool reward. I do hope blizz later adds something to powergame the reputation part, having to still do Draenor dailies to get flying there if you missed WoD is stupid.

The problem is not so much with what the pathfinder requires you to do, but with how long they make you wait before you can complete it.

Gating for the sake of slowing you down so that everything takes more time since you are paying on a per-month basis. Under the pretense that "it is better that way" - yeah, right, maybe for Blizzard, but not for the players.

[SirCowdog]

Yeah I know, thats why im amazed you guys are still going strong. Also I dont really want to get into an argument but with regards to the pathfinder its almost all stuff Ill do anyway so it feels like a cool reward. I do hope blizz later adds something to powergame the reputation part, having to still do Draenor dailies to get flying there if you missed WoD is stupid.

Not much of a reward when you consider that everything you'd want to use flying on....you've already done to get flying in the first place. But whatever floats your boat I guess. For someone who's massively into alts I guess I could see the appeal. But then again, if you're massively into alts you've probably already played the hell out of them by now anyway.

So again...what's the actual value of the reward? How is it reasonable?

This is the main point I keep bringing up in regards to the giant question mark of whether or not patches after 7.2 will have content to use flying on. Because if all we get after unlocking flight is some no-fly islands, then pathfinder is just one giant trolling by Blizzard(and a master stroke of bait and switch to get players to chase that carrot for so long).

[rda]

Because if all we get after unlocking flight is some no-fly islands, then pathfinder is just one giant trolling by Blizzard(and a master stroke of bait and switch to get players to chase that carrot for so long).

There's a slight upside.

Before Legion people were thinking "oh, well, perhaps they learned their lesson with flying and won't delay it too long out of their greed". Vague "don't worry, flying will come, just wait a bit, we have a plan" was received relatively well. I mean they reverted their stance on flying after all, that was progress.

After Legion delaying flying for 9 months (if 7.2 comes in end of May) while adding absolutely no content that would be special towards flying in any way, delaying basically just because they wanted to delay and for such a long time again, nobody will give Blizzard any benefit of the doubt on that.