What makes WF/TF a problem for people?

[melodramocracy]

I'd prefer a deterministic, currency based system.
You can still have drops and RNG to change things up, but ultimately I want to work for my gear at a steady, predictable pace, so I have the feeling that when I do a dungeon I get sth in return.

AP isn't cutting it for me, because it's impact on my characters performance is far to weak.

Maybe it wouldn't be so frustrating to me if I weren't used to having HC/Myth raid gear and knowing how a properly equipped character handles.

While there is RNG, there's also baseline directly tied to difficulty, same as it's always been, and several avenues available to you for free, guaranteed baseline(+) gear in the form of follower missions, weekly mythic + chests, and timewalking chests when those pop up (I'm unsure if the pvp / pet battle weeklies drop gear)

I think the bottom line is that if you are actively playing, you will see progress up to the given difficulty that you're participating in on a fairly predictable scale.

The underlined is key here. I do mythic + content, normal and some heroic raiding, and my equipped ilvl reflects that pretty accurately (887, probably shifted down due to an 840 relic that I haven't gotten a good upgrade for yet). Drops that are upgrades for me at this point seem to be semi-rare, but again, considering the content I'm doing, that isn't a surprise.

In the older versions of how gear in this game worked, I'd be at the same comparative gear level, and simply have no reason to do normal mode raiding at all, for example.

[Matthias]

The underlined is key here. I do mythic + content, normal and some heroic raiding, and my equipped ilvl reflects that pretty accurately (887, probably shifted down due to an 840 relic that I haven't gotten a good upgrade for yet). Drops that are upgrades for me at this point seem to be semi-rare, but again, considering the content I'm doing, that isn't a surprise.

In the older versions of how gear in this game worked, I'd be at the same comparative gear level, and simply have no reason to do normal mode raiding at all, for example.

Well said. I think people have a problem coming to grips that they can't really be "done" with a tier in this expansion by just collecting the best in slot from a given raid and then waiting idly in their capital city/garrison for the next raid to come out. However you don't need to have OCD and scour for loot like a mad man either if you don't choose to.

[Deztru]

Upgrades are gated behind RNG, instead of working towards an upgrade whether it be through reputation or raid progressing getting an upgrade is just RNG

[Effenz]

Upgrades are gated behind RNG, instead of working towards an upgrade whether it be through reputation or raid progressing getting an upgrade is just RNG

But you get upgrades through raid progression, so your statement is false.

[rda]

In the older versions of how gear in this game worked, I'd be at the same comparative gear level, and simply have no reason to do normal mode raiding at all, for example.

That's the upside - that you have reasons to do normal.

The downside is that you can never realistically finish. There's always a chance of getting an upgrade.

Whether the upside is worth the downside has been amply shown by Diablo 3. Nobody plays it. People like this "there's always a chance of getting an upgrade" idea at first, but then they quickly go numb to it. Because Blizzard think this idea is a replacement for having lots of varied content, and it is not.

[Effenz]

That's the upside - that you have reasons to do normal.

The downside is that you can never realistically finish. There's always a chance of getting an upgrade.

Whether the upside is worth the downside has been amply shown by Diablo 3. Nobody plays it. People like this "there's always a chance of getting an upgrade" idea at first, but then they quickly go numb to it. Because Blizzard think this idea is a replacement for having lots of varied content, and it is not.

Yeah because they haven't been releasing content at a fast pace

[rda]

Yeah because they haven't been releasing content at a fast pace

They haven't. Count what they released. It isn't much.

They gated the first raid tier to the hell and back and added a reworked old instance. That's 90% of what they "have been releasing at a fast pace".

[Effenz]

They haven't. Count what they released. It isn't much.

They gated the first raid tier to the hell and back and added a reworked old instance. That's 90% of what they "have been releasing at a fast pace".

Sure

I mean let's just forget that kara is 100% new artwork and stuff while we're at it. And a 20 boss tier isn't small either but yeah let's just casually ignore that, too.
But anyway, it's not surprising. These forums are full of people who hate the game and the company but are still hopelessly addicted; nothing blizzard does will be enough.

[shonist]

Now look at this scenario.
Player is in a semi-hardcore mythic guild. He enjoys raiding 3 days a week and clearing mythic maybe a month or two after the world first, but still at a respectable pace before the next content patch, and has done so in the last several expansion packs.
His guild has a mix of players, everyone is at least decent but really good players are scarce. There is some struggling with mechanics and DPS checks.

Some of his guild members play alts, and do weekly clears of heroic and normal raids. Player only really cares about mythic and doesn't participate, but some other players join on their mains to help out. These other players are now getting triple the chance for good legendaries, plus the occasional TF loot. Their artifact weapons are also higher level. Although our player is present on all mythic raids with 100% attendance, others in the guild who can stomach running boring content and the same raid 3 times a week are slowly outgearing him. Player now faces getting sat out because he has simply lower item level and others can do more dps, which will compensate for having not so good players in the guild and having a hard time with dps checks.
Player can no longer enjoy the single reason he was playing the game in the last 5+ years, which is mythic raids only. Either he has to do shitty, boring easy content that he loaths or he will be simply left behind.

what a bad example you got there. Better to cater nice ppl in a game than elitist right? if you were the owner of the company, what would you do?

The game is getting better.

Casual ppl now can be very casual to enjoy the game.
Hardcore ppl now have to be very hardcore to enjoy being hardcore.

[Kazgrel]

That's the upside - that you have reasons to do normal.

The downside is that you can never realistically finish. There's always a chance of getting an upgrade.

Whether the upside is worth the downside has been amply shown by Diablo 3. Nobody plays it. People like this "there's always a chance of getting an upgrade" idea at first, but then they quickly go numb to it. Because Blizzard think this idea is a replacement for having lots of varied content, and it is not.

Relating to D3, I recall when ancient legendaries were added around this time last year (I think? Maybe it's been 2 years already, idk). Seemed kinda cool at first, especially if you got a nicely rolled ancient. Problem there was that to compete on the ladder, you pretty much needed ancients in damn near all slots available.

Before the ancients, you could reach the point of "Wooo I have all the items for the build I'm running" and from that point on you simply focused on how high you could go on the greater rift ladder. Ancients come along, and it's like "great now I need ancient versions of all these". Least in D3 it's a little easier to get such items compared to what I've seen/heard described of the Legion systems, but in the D3 example, at least, it leads to hours upon hours of farming for a single upgrade. After a while of this, people get bored of D3 and bail until the next season...and even that hasn't worked to keep people coming back (think the last season I played was S4 or S5; only popped on there recently when FF14 servers were down).

[shonist]

They haven't. Count what they released. It isn't much.

They gated the first raid tier to the hell and back and added a reworked old instance. That's 90% of what they "have been releasing at a fast pace".

they released very much, because i enjoyed the xpac very much, and i played very much.

So you are wrong very much.

ispeakenglishverymuch

[Gatsbybutters]

Because it only adds to the everyone gets a ribbon, losers get rewards, bad players just need to "play more" mentality that's creeping into every genre and every title in gaming? It's impacting everything in the industry in the name of bringing new people in, at the cost of the already established customer base. Big picture, lil guy. Big picture.

[IceMan1763]

what a bad example you got there. Better to cater nice ppl in a game than elitist right? if you were the owner of the company, what would you do?

The game is getting better.

Casual ppl now can be very casual to enjoy the game.
Hardcore ppl now have to be very hardcore to enjoy being hardcore.

When you say "casual" and "hardcore"... I see "has job and life" and "no lifer".

This xpac is made for no lifers. You mistake having virtually unlimited free time with being "hardcore". That person has no more skill than the person who can dedicate 20-30 hours per week to play, you just want to assume they do probably because you fall into your definition of "hardcore".

[Dossou]

The amount of projection in this thread is astonishing.

[Effenz]

When you say "casual" and "hardcore"... I see "has job and life" and "no lifer".

This xpac is made for no lifers. You mistake having virtually unlimited free time with being "hardcore". That person has no more skill than the person who can dedicate 20-30 hours per week to play, you just want to assume they do probably because you fall into your definition of "hardcore".

You can get along quite fine with ~10 hours a week, many people in my guild do it, are at weapon level 54 and raid mythic/do 15+ M+
You don't think it's possible because you're a shit player

The amount of projection in this thread is astonishing.

^^

[Sylvaeres]

So from the "worst feature of legion" thread, a ton of people mention Warforge Titanforge as one of the main issues, without explanation.

Why is that exactly.

Scenario 1:
Player 1 complains about Player 2 getting a 925 item from LFR/WQ, this has an astronomical low chance on a BiS piece you might see it happen maybe once or twice on the same player within current content. (7.2 will likely raise the TF limit again) To me this is just elitism and not a flaw in the system. Also Tier gear only comes from LFR or higher raids.

- No problem here as there is no way you can a full 925 BIS gear set from 860, even if it happens on 1 piece, it's not 12 (14 slots, 2 legendaries)
I think a lot of this comes from an illusion that it seems to happen all the time cause 1 player out of 25 might get a high titanforge, it doesn't mean they get 10+ pieces that way without some insane amount of lottery luck.

Seems like a player created problem of feeling all high and mighty having high raid gear and caring too much about other people's gear. (those people often tend to call casuals/LFR plebs/scrubs etc to inflate their ego.

Scenario 2:
Player 1 Farms heroic nighthold, Player 2 Farms mythic Nighthold. Player 1 wants the same itemlevel as player 2 but not step in mythic, player 1's heroic gear always needs to titanforge to be on par with mythic, mythic gear in turn can go 15-25 beyond it's base to hit the 925 cap.

- No problem here , player 1 doesn't do the highest designed difficulty raid content and expect to have the same gear, however player 1 always needs RNG to go Titanforge, while player 2's gear titanforge is a bonus. This is a Player created problem.

Scenario 3:
Mythic Raider 1 has a BIS item go 925 Titanforge, but instead of a socket you get Leech or Avoidance.

- No problem here, yes it's shit bad luck RNG, but really nit picking at this point unless you are 925+ equip.

Basically, because those people are self absorbed and they can't handle anything that doesn't validate them in the way they see fit

[IceMan1763]

You can get along quite fine with ~10 hours a week, many people in my guild do it, are at weapon level 54 and raid mythic/do 15+ M+
You don't think it's possible because you're a shit player

By raid Mythic, you probably mean have beat a few Mythic bosses. The first three in NH are a joke and a gift, by the way.

Also, mods can we get this adolescent a forum time out? How is it constructive at all to call me a shit player?

[Deleted]

what a bad example you got there. Better to cater nice ppl in a game than elitist right? if you were the owner of the company, what would you do?
The game is getting better.
Casual ppl now can be very casual to enjoy the game.
Hardcore ppl now have to be very hardcore to enjoy being hardcore.

This is a false black-or-white picture. The game is not made of 95% casual and 5% hardcore. It's a wide scale of all kinds of people, and semi-hardcore raiders are the majority of raiders. They are the ones getting fucked over the most.
Yes, the world top 100 are just going to do the grind. And the casuals who only do normal modes just don't care. But the majority of the raiders are the ones who are doing heroic and eventually clear mythic months after the top guilds. The ones who don't want to devote 5+ days a week to raiding, but so far they could comfortably play 2-3 days a week and eventually clear the raids. Now with inflated item levels and boss stats the game demands too much time.

But I guess you were right after all, this change polarizes people. The "middle class" is dying out, and those who do not want to go full nolifer hardcore raider are pushed down to casual.

[Effenz]

By raid Mythic, you probably mean have beat a few Mythic bosses. The first three in NH are a joke and a gift, by the way.

Also, mods can we get this adolescent a forum time out? How is it constructive at all to call me a shit player?

Lol, calling mods
Shit player and babby confirmed.
Most of the guilds 3-7M right now are semi-casual, btw.

[Chemii]

You're rewarding the player base based on lottery results, not actual participation.

Example A: Never been into Nighthold on my alt, got the Whispers Guldan Trinket, Titanforged - higher than mythic baseline. How is that fair on anyone who's actually killed Guldan Heroic/Mythic?

Then you have blizzard saying "the chances of people having this item level doing this content or whatever is very slim"

Every piece I have has some sort of Warforged, Socket, Titanforged - this is universal - no one walks around with one randomly OP piece - its everywhere, everyday.

This has a bad impact on item level, you can't use it to measure anything anymore. So people naturally inflate requirements needed for content in LFG tool. Players suddenly can't get a group, even 10-20 item levels above content difficulty.