What makes WF/TF a problem for people?

[Granyala]

People actually enjoy RNG, lul.

Many do, or Casinos would be out of business.

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In the older versions of how gear in this game worked, I'd be at the same comparative gear level, and simply have no reason to do normal mode raiding at all, for example.

And depending on the tuning, that was a good thing.

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Enjoy what you get, be happy for people that get things too. If another person receiving loot diminishes your fun then you are bound to be miserable.

Would love to.
But no matter how much time i put in, unless I raid mythic or do very high M+ runs, my char is going to be crap by comparison.
By crap I mean, a raider doing 2x+ the output.

It's pretty difficult to get excited about items in that context. Unless they look good of course. :P

[Alvito]

Many do, or Casinos would be out of business.

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And depending on the tuning, that was a good thing.

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Would love to.
But no matter how much time i put in, unless I raid mythic or do very high M+ runs, my char is going to be crap by comparison.
By crap I mean, a raider doing 2x+ the output.

It's pretty difficult to get excited about items in that context. Unless they look good of course. :P

If someone is doubling your numbers gear isn't the problem. Seeing how you are saying you don't raid or do high level mythic + this system helps you the most. It keeps players running content with you that would normally skip it, improving times and increasing success rates in runs. It also gives you access to items you would never have.

[Deleted]

The issue isnt the one of the systems is in place, but BOTH that is the actual issue.

its rng ontop of more rng, this is one of the reasons that ppl are complaining about.

Legendaries, hidden appearences, WF, TF, item upgrade (socket, extra bonus stats).

I get the want to run content again and have a chance at an upgrade, but its worse bc all I can think is if its not WF/TF, it was a pretty useless run (outside of AP). At least before I was going in there to help a friend or help a guildie gear up with zero expectations of new loot, so no dissapointment.

Edit: id be fine with a slight upgrade, like up to 10-15 and dropping the whole socket thing (either make it standard or drop gems altogether).

[Granyala]

If someone is doubling your numbers gear isn't the problem.

Actually it is. There is no way in hell that you can hold a candle to a raider with mythic gear if you wear, say, item level 860.
I've already seen this effect in WoD and other expansions (although it gets less pronounced the further you get back in time).

It's not a skill issue (even though I admit being a little rusty due to low activity, LFR compensates that by being able to ignore 99% of all boss mechanics).
I know how to play my classes, I know how to interpret logs and what to look for, after all it was my task in my raid guild for many years.

Don't underestimate the effect of gear in this game. It is _HUGE_. W/o gear, your skill, your character, means absolutely nothing.

[ribthanwa]

Not sure why people who are sitting at 860 gear lvl need to be competing with mythic raiders for damage. You are, at best, only clearing the old content's raid on heroic, and you aren't doing anything reasonable in 5 mans. You can participate in a +10 if you try at 860. The difference between a mythic raider, and a person who is perpetually at 860, is skill sure, but it's effort. Not even time, mind you, but trying. Learning, getting better, actually wiping on things and staying in the group. That way, when you kill the boss, you get the loot, and are rewarded for it. People who never step foot in difficult content do not NEED to be performing at even close to a level of a mythic raid, nor should they expect to be.

If you are grouped with a mythic raider, and they are doubling your damage, accept the fact that you are being carried, and this you still to not have to put in any more effort than you have been. Check your epeen if you aren't willing to actually try to perform.

[Alvito]

Actually it is. There is no way in hell that you can hold a candle to a raider with mythic gear if you wear, say, item level 860.
I've already seen this effect in WoD and other expansions (although it gets less pronounced the further you get back in time).

It's not a skill issue (even though I admit being a little rusty due to low activity, LFR compensates that by being able to ignore 99% of all boss mechanics).
I know how to play my classes, I know how to interpret logs and what to look for, after all it was my task in my raid guild for many years.

Don't underestimate the effect of gear in this game. It is _HUGE_. W/o gear, your skill, your character, means absolutely nothing.

That has nothing to do with titan forging

[Matthias]

im sticking to NH Normal and Heroic and im doing "ok" not gonna say i enter there kicking asses but its ok. I dont even play the game outside of raids. i just log on to find a pug and thats all...
I think ive done 10 mythic + dungeons in the whole xpac and 1 or 2 on my current main char. I dont grind. ill preffer playing something else in that time

I think he talking about the grade above people that do Heroic. Those that do Mythic Raiding, but only three nights a week, normally retired hardcore 5 day a week raiders, because they have more RL stuff going on, or just don't want to be forced to play that much. IMO that demographic has always been screwed over, sandwiched between the Hardcore and Casuals.

But I do think anyone that commits time to Mythic needs to be accommadated with AP, Targeted Legendarys and perhaps even a way to upgrade their gear Timeless Coin style. They commit enough time to scheduled raiding, having to continue to run the loot treadmill can be overtaxing.

[Granyala]

That has nothing to do with titan forging

Thunder- / Warforged greatly increased the gaps.
We always had gaps between raid difficulties, but now you have gaps of [difficulty jump] + [Warforged area].

If you do that for 3 difficulties, it's difficult to avoid ridiculous differences in character power.

[Bevo]

Not even close to the same thing. Of course if you are going to look at it theough this twisted scipe then you would also be pissed off anybody besides yourself got loot too. Looking at it that way why would you want to raid or do anything at all. Enjoy what you get, be happy for people that get things too. If another person receiving loot diminishes your fun then you are bound to be miserable.

I have no problem at all with other people getting loot. I enjoy raiding and the raid team needs loot to continue to progess. What annoys me is other people getting equal loot for far less than equal effort put in. Joe Smith in lfr who can barely avoiding dieing should have 0 chance of getting gear the same level as a mythic raider. I am not saying mythic raiding is insanely hard, but it does take work and effort and lfr or even normal doesn't.

[HeyGuysHello]

It's a problem for people who raid mythic.

My entire raid personally loves that particular part of the system, actually. If it's not providing us with even better gear for progression then it's giving us laughs seeing people that only raid lfr with a better piece than us - gives us something to talk about when we're screwing around on farm.

[Matthias]

One thing about RNG loot I kind of like is for the first time since Transmog it's actually rather exciting to inspect people. You scope the ilvl of their weapons, their trinkets, their Legendarys sizing them up wondering how much damage they can do. Everyone has a very unique set of gear they wear. Sometimes it even compels me to stay in the group just to quench my curiosity.

Previously just by knowing what level of player that person was you knew, what gear they were wearing, all the best gear from the current best raid.

[IceMan1763]

WF/TF isn't a bad idea... I just think the range is WAY WAY WAY too big. I would do +10 max for WF and +15 for TF.

[Mekkle]

I actually love WF/TF, keeps older stuff relevant.

[Nevalus]

I don't mind a 0.0000001% chance for some random dude doing a worldquest getting a better item than someone wiping for days on a mythic raid boss. My problem (and this is maybe my own greed) is that I never feel truly happy I get an item anymore. Getting your BiS item used to be a great joy to me. Everytime I roll a token and its not warforged or something I'm somewhat dissapointing instead of joyful.

[Eazy]

Why do people have problem with random murders? The murderer chose you randomly - it's just shit RNG.

Make WF - 5 ilvl higher, TF - 10 ilvl higher. Fine.
TF going up to +900 from mythic dungeons? lel

[IceMan1763]

Why do people have problem with random murders? The murderer chose you randomly - it's just shit RNG.

Make WF - 5 ilvl higher, TF - 10 ilvl higher. Fine.
TF going up to +900 from mythic dungeons? lel

When the expansion first launched, people made genuine posts asking if there was a bug because the range for WF/TF was so large.

[Alvito]

Thunder- / Warforged greatly increased the gaps.
We always had gaps between raid difficulties, but now you have gaps of [difficulty jump] + [Warforged area].

If you do that for 3 difficulties, it's difficult to avoid ridiculous differences in character power.

Earlier you compared titan forged to Olympic athletes randomly have medals shuffled around after a race. Its now clear as a weekend jogger you want to be able to compete with those medalists. With the content you have mentioned doing the system works far better for you then mythic raiders. More so you benefit from other people wanting to do multple difficulties. Sure a mythic raider is probably going to beat you. Gear will play some factor in that, a fully upgraded weapon will help them a lot, but they will almost always be a better player too. If they weren't they wouldn't keep getting carried through content.

[Deleted]

So from the "worst feature of legion" thread, a ton of people mention Warforge Titanforge as one of the main issues, without explanation.

Why is that exactly.

Scenario 1:
Player 1 complains about Player 2 getting a 925 item from LFR/WQ, this has an astronomical low chance on a BiS piece you might see it happen maybe once or twice on the same player within current content. (7.2 will likely raise the TF limit again) To me this is just elitism and not a flaw in the system. Also Tier gear only comes from LFR or higher raids.

- No problem here as there is no way you can a full 925 BIS gear set from 860, even if it happens on 1 piece, it's not 12 (14 slots, 2 legendaries)
I think a lot of this comes from an illusion that it seems to happen all the time cause 1 player out of 25 might get a high titanforge, it doesn't mean they get 10+ pieces that way without some insane amount of lottery luck.

Seems like a player created problem of feeling all high and mighty having high raid gear and caring too much about other people's gear. (those people often tend to call casuals/LFR plebs/scrubs etc to inflate their ego.

Scenario 2:
Player 1 Farms heroic nighthold, Player 2 Farms mythic Nighthold. Player 1 wants the same itemlevel as player 2 but not step in mythic, player 1's heroic gear always needs to titanforge to be on par with mythic, mythic gear in turn can go 15-25 beyond it's base to hit the 925 cap.

- No problem here , player 1 doesn't do the highest designed difficulty raid content and expect to have the same gear, however player 1 always needs RNG to go Titanforge, while player 2's gear titanforge is a bonus. This is a Player created problem.

Scenario 3:
Mythic Raider 1 has a BIS item go 925 Titanforge, but instead of a socket you get Leech or Avoidance.

- No problem here, yes it's shit bad luck RNG, but really nit picking at this point unless you are 925+ equip.

the biggest issue people have with the WF/TF system isn't as much that people get rewarded for things. it's how these rewards are handed out compared to most of the other reward based systems ingame. (with the exclusion of legendary's, they share pretty much the same system as WF/TF)

the current system for WF/TF works on a "time = gear" based system.
which, on the surface seems fine, spend a lot of time ingame, get the good stuff.

the general system in WoW works a little different.
it works on a "effort = gear" based system.
just take a look at the broad difficulty system currently ingame for it's high end PvE content.
4 raid difficulty's each rewarding gradually better rewards as the difficulty increases.
as well as a scaling difficulty of mythic keystone dungeons.
and, to some degree a minimum amount of time is needed to complete some of these the effort needed to complete these vary greatly.

WF/TF throws a wrench in this system by giving people with a lower amount of effort a chance to get the same gear as those that put in high amounts of effort.

this is not to say that people who put in large amounts of time but little effort do not deserve any kind of reward.
however, i personally think this reward should be reflected based on their effort, not their time spend.
this is what, for the most part, reputation rewards and, to some extent, the older token based purchasable items, are for.

[Alvito]

I have no problem at all with other people getting loot. I enjoy raiding and the raid team needs loot to continue to progess. What annoys me is other people getting equal loot for far less than equal effort put in. Joe Smith in lfr who can barely avoiding dieing should have 0 chance of getting gear the same level as a mythic raider. I am not saying mythic raiding is insanely hard, but it does take work and effort and lfr or even normal doesn't.

Wayching afkers in lfr get legendary drops or anything is kinda annoying. That is the way loot has always worked there though. You just had to be in group to reap the rewards.

[Deleted]

I can happily say that I do not have a problem with WF/TF.