Midwinter stops raiding

[kamuimac]

So is it .00001% of players who like to play more than one spec? How about not having said spec be gimped because you didn't grind enough AP? You really think it's just top end mythic raiders with those concerns?

yes and so do many other people for whom there is absolutely no need to put in anymore then 35 traits. and you can do it in 2-3 days of wq clearing.

[Shalanoree]

People asking for a weekly cap on AP don't understand the problem in that. It actually gets even harder to catch up if you set up a cap, then everyone feels obligated to reach that cap every week in order to not be left behind.

If for some reason there's a week you can't play, then you can't ever catch up because you'll always be a week behind. Besides, once you reach that cap, there's no more reason for you to play that week. With limitless farming, you can just go at your own rythm and your play time is never wasted. If you can't play one week, there's no real problem since you can eventually catch up, and if you have more time to play another week, then you will still have a reward for doing so.

These guilds burn themselves out, asking for their players to keep 4-5 characters ready for raiding at the top level, which actually is a very high level of grinding if you do it all in two weeks, but is not actually that significant if you do it over the course of a patch lifecycle.

The funny thing is, these guilds understand they are the ones doing this to each other, none of them whine about Blizzard being the problem. But of course on forums you'll see a lot of whining from a ton of people, none of which actually plays at that level and therefore don't even experience that kind of problem in their own playing experience. This is just a scapegoat for these people to blame their failure on Blizzard when in fact they should reevaluate if it's that much of a problem for themselves.

The same goes for the legendary system. Yes, it has a ton of problems. However, none of those are "if I don't have the BiS legendary, I'm gonna get kicked from the guild". This doesn't even happen in top guilds, so why do people have to make it a problem? The problem with legendaries is mostly the fact that utility and performance are not separated in terms of loot pools, and also you can't acquire legendaries for different specs at an efficient rate.

[KaPe]

yes and so do many other people for whom there is absolutely no need to put in anymore then 35 traits. and you can do it in 2-3 days of wq clearing.

So according to you, there's only 100 or so people who care about their characters doing 10% more damage and having 15% more hitpoints? Did you notice how many guilds are 3/10M? You know, the point where 54 traits become relevant since you're facing bosses with actual dps checks? "Slightly more than .00001% players and I highly doubt that vast majority of them enjoy the grind.

[Deleted]

Damn, it seems like top end guilds are dropping like flies atm

[jtstormrage]

It is not just top guilds who are suffering from Legion AP Grind Burnout.

Various players in our guild, and other guilds I know, are simply going casual because the grind, and gearing RNG, is too much. They would rather go casual. This impacts the whole guild.

[kamuimac]

So according to you, there's only 100 or so people who care about their characters doing 10% more damage and having 15% more hitpoints? Did you notice how many guilds are 3/10M? You know, the point where 54 traits become relevant since you're facing bosses with actual dps checks? "Slightly more than .00001% players and I highly doubt that vast majority of them enjoy the grind.

and ? the cutt off has to be somewhere . the same thing come each tier - and in this case its nothing compared to amount of guilds that were stuck and died because they couldnt get past elegon hc in mop same was with gorefiend in hfc same old same old - they simply need more gear and will overcome it after few weeks.

somehow i find it really doubtfull that the lack of AP is the main reason why those guilds cant reach 4/10 - if i have to guess it has much more to do with amount of their raiders pushing 60-70 percentiles rather then 90 of what their classes are capable of doing.

[Dangg]

somehow i find it really doubtfull that the lack of AP is the main reason why those guilds cant reach 4/10 - if i have to guess it has much more to do with amount of their raiders pushing 60-70 percentiles rather then 90 of what their classes are capable of doing.

That's funny, guess how much the difference between a 60% and 90% parse is.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1842
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=60&boss=1842


If you mean it in a sense that their char being played by a top tier player would do 600k, but they are doing 400k - 450k that would require some serious beyond LFR brain afk level of play with nearly all specs.

[Ammanas]

The AP system at it's core is not what making top guilds burn out. People have gotten burned out since vanilla.

The biggest problem is that guilds require you to have several alts and that's when the AP grind gets to you. If Blizzard some how couldn't stop the split raiding the AP grind would be a much more pleasant experience for everyone.

AP grind isn't even bad for hardcore players though. I'm in a slightly less hardcore guild than MW was, AP grind really isn't that bad for people that play a lot. Its the legendaries that really fuck us. AP grind gets bad because I have 0 good legendaries on class X, so I mainswap to my alt that got a BiS one and have to farm 54 again.

Also for alts, MW required just 35 on each character. You could get 35 before NH with very little effort. Obviously most players will have more than that on their "main alt" or whatever char they think might be useful for progression.

The legendary system though.. I've been 54 in all three weapons on my main for weeks now and yet I'm still spamming m+. Got my 7th last night (sephuz) so I know I've got at least another week or two probably before I even get another chance at it. For my class and the fight we are progressing on, the bracers add over 100k DPS so..

[kamuimac]

That's funny, guess how much the difference between a 60% and 90% parse is.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1842
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=60&boss=1842


If you mean it in a sense that their char being played by a top tier player would do 600k, but they are doing 400k - 450k that would require some serious beyond LFR brain afk level of play with nearly all specs.

now for comparison and seing some real statistics resoults put in parses taken from random +/-10 mythic guilds stuck on 3/10 , hell put in parses from even one to see the difference in performance.

[Supercool]

If for some reason there's a week you can't play, then you can't ever catch up because you'll always be a week behind.

Firstly, that's why you use a rolling cap like Conquest in MoP/WoD. Then it is possible to take time off but come back and catch up (with a little effort).

Secondly, people who joined late in Legion have already dealt with being much more than a week behind. Until capping at 54 became possible for the average player, those who couldn't grind M+ constantly were perpetually behind.

Besides, once you reach that cap, there's no more reason for you to play that week.

Only if Artifact Power is literally the only thing that matters in the game, which it isn't.

Heck if this argument worked nobody would be playing now because so many people have capped AP until 7.2.

[Dangg]

now for comparison and seing some real statistics resoults put in parses taken from random +/-10 mythic guilds stuck on 3/10 , hell put in parses from even one to see the difference in performance.

Doing that would include plenty of other factors instead of just skills like you've claimed.

[kamuimac]

Doing that would include plenty of other factors instead of just skills like you've claimed.

im really curious what "other factors besides skill" you mean when you say it.

[beatmyface]

Danish Terrace just announced they are done as well

[Deleted]

Raiding is not dying guys

=D

[Onikaroshi]

Raiding is not dying guys

=D

No, it isn't, just the small hardcore scene is, but its been in slow death mode for years. Think it finally just hit a breaking point.

[Deleted]

No, it isn't, just the small hardcore scene is, but its been in slow death mode for years. Think it finally just hit a breaking point.

Small hardcore raiding scene is not dying guys

=D

[Dangg]

im really curious what "other factors besides skill" you mean when you say it.

Gear? Strat while progressing/first kill or playing for rankings? RNG?

[Kallisto]

Firstly, that's why you use a rolling cap like Conquest in MoP/WoD. Then it is possible to take time off but come back and catch up (with a little effort).

But it doesn't answer the problem of "How to not fuck people over if they're busy on reset day or the day after." which happens when you have a cap in place since no fucker ever wants to help when nothing is in it for them.

[kamuimac]

Gear? Strat while progressing/first kill or playing for rankings? RNG?

oh so you admit that ap is not a problem only gear is ? nice to know you admiting i was right and ap is not a problem for anyone but hardcore junkies.

[Orwell7]

oh so you admit that ap is not a problem only gear is ? nice to know you admiting i was right and ap is not a problem for anyone but hardcore junkies.

Please just think about this: a little cold is not a problem for the most of us. But combine it with diarrhea, some skin rashes, maybe add a pulled muscle in your neck.. It all adds up very quickly.
Legendary "grind" + AP "grind" + TF/WF "luck/grind" + impossible to respec or reroll without good legendaries + doing previous raids for even more TF/WF + oh let's not forget the RNG with M+ loot like Memento or Chrono Shard.
It is a fuckton more than what we USED TO LOVE.

It is so much now it's crazy.

We didn't wanted this. Subs would have been constantly growing if the game was still had the same systems as wotlk, but getting new raids/instances every 6 months.