If Garrosh never went bat shiz cray

[Nanaboostme]

What expansion would we* be in? Where would the story be? Characters that would still be alive or dead?

[mysticx]

What expansion would be? Where would the story be? Characters that would still be alive or dead?

WoD wouldn't have happened, but the legion would have arrived on Azeroth sooner or later even without AU Gul'Dan to help it along, so we would have ended up where we are now anyway...

[Thage]

Even if he didn't go batshit crazy, through Cataclysm he was rapidly alienating his allies in the Horde. Assuming the rest of the story went normally (Varian's imperfect fusion was fixed, the offensive on Ashenvale was broken, and both factions sent troops to Pandaria), things might have ended up worse for the Horde. If Garrosh wasn't a complete despot but continued to alienate his allies at the rate he was in Cataclysm, and his blitzes continued to get countered after the initial push, the Alliance under Varian would have presented a much more appealing alternative (and in fact, Lor'themar likely would have successfully defected as, without Garrosh sabotaging the Sunreavers, the Purge wouldn't have happened).

Doubly so because, if Garrosh hadn't lost it, he wouldn't have mana-bombed Theramore (but would probably have taken it through sheer attrition in a more standard campaign) which means the Alliance's three major human representatives (Jaina, Anduin, and Varian) would all be even-headed voices of reason, giving the alienated blood elves, tauren, trolls, and Forsaken even more reason to consider defecting. The political landscape on Azeroth could look very different, and in fact Wrathion's dream of a united Azeroth could have been much closer if Garrosh hadn't gone mad and gone to increasingly-extreme lengths to hold his allies more or less hostage through the threat of bum-rushing them with the then-numerically superior orcish troops.

[Deleted]

What expansion would be? Where would the story be? Characters that would still be alive or dead?

Guess the war in Kalimdor would be over with the Alliance pushed back to the North. (Alliance might prepare at this point to counter the Horde)
Pandaria would still be under the Sha power because the Hearth would still be in the ground.
Vol'jin might been replaced with a Troll that might be more inline of Garrosh vision of Kalimdor domination.
Guess the Forsakens would still be under the close watch of Garrosh.

But atm the story would be so different with him that its very hard to say where the story would be, i mean no Gul'dan with no Legion invasion.
But my guesses would be that the war would be at a high point in Kalimdor atm between the factions with the Horde at the frontlines to crush the Night Elfs and the Alliance trying to push them back.

[AeneasBK]

Pretty much everything down to Dun Morogh would be under the control of the Forsaken.

[Thimagryn]

WoD wouldn't have happened, but the legion would have arrived on Azeroth sooner or later even without AU Gul'Dan to help it along, so we would have ended up where we are now anyway...

WoD would've happened, just with a different reasoning to go there. If Garrosh could go 'back in time', anyone can do it.

[AeneasBK]

WoD would've happened, just with a different reasoning to go there. If Garrosh could go 'back in time', anyone can do it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Garrosh was approached by a rogue Bronze (infinite?) dragonflight dude who gave him the ability to do it. Presumably you're saying that if not Garrosh they would have found someone else suitable. But who? Garrosh was kinda critical in many ways to giving the Iron Horde their advantages...

Honestly though I'll be the first to admit I@m kinda ropey on WoD lore onwards . . .

[Halyon]

Even if he didn't go batshit crazy, through Cataclysm he was rapidly alienating his allies in the Horde. Assuming the rest of the story went normally (Varian's imperfect fusion was fixed, the offensive on Ashenvale was broken, and both factions sent troops to Pandaria), things might have ended up worse for the Horde. If Garrosh wasn't a complete despot but continued to alienate his allies at the rate he was in Cataclysm, and his blitzes continued to get countered after the initial push, the Alliance under Varian would have presented a much more appealing alternative (and in fact, Lor'themar likely would have successfully defected as, without Garrosh sabotaging the Sunreavers, the Purge wouldn't have happened).

Doubly so because, if Garrosh hadn't lost it, he wouldn't have mana-bombed Theramore (but would probably have taken it through sheer attrition in a more standard campaign) which means the Alliance's three major human representatives (Jaina, Anduin, and Varian) would all be even-headed voices of reason, giving the alienated blood elves, tauren, trolls, and Forsaken even more reason to consider defecting. The political landscape on Azeroth could look very different, and in fact Wrathion's dream of a united Azeroth could have been much closer if Garrosh hadn't gone mad and gone to increasingly-extreme lengths to hold his allies more or less hostage through the threat of bum-rushing them with the then-numerically superior orcish troops.

Pretty much this. Couldn't put it better myself.

[dacoolist]

I compare Garrosh to Trump... wait non-political, right.

OT: We'd of all been killed off by now

[Thimagryn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Garrosh was approached by a rogue Bronze (infinite?) dragonflight dude who gave him the ability to do it. Presumably you're saying that if not Garrosh they would have found someone else suitable. But who? Garrosh was kinda critical in many ways to giving the Iron Horde their advantages...

Honestly though I'll be the first to admit I@m kinda ropey on WoD lore onwards . . .

Wrathion, Dreadlord Jaina, Alt-universe Medivh, some Dragon dude pissed at losing their powers in Cata... List goes on. It could literally be anyone, because the story is written as it comes. At one point in development, the devs had Garrosh put together the Mongrel Horde, a mix of Gnolls, Kobolds, Centaurs. Going back in time to alt Draenor was a product of someone at Blizz thinking 'wouldn't it be cool if he ressed the Warchiefs of Warcraft 2?'

TBH, the entire story of WoD was just a plot device to bring back Gul'dan and the Legion. Garrosh perished midway through questing, making him nothing more than a macguffin. He's replaceable by any number of means to get us back into Draenor and revisit Gul'dan and the Legion.

[McNeil]

Kairoz would've looked for someone else to travel to AU Draenor, though its not sure if that other guy would've betrayed him aswell. If he did send a good guy, then WoD could still happen but without having the Iron Horde hate our guts. Instead we'd be trying to recruit them to fight against the Legion. And Garrosh could have some daddy moments with AU Grom.

[Super Kami Dende]

Without Garrosh to go back to stop Grom from drinking the Legion Kool-aid, Gul'dan likely would've had a gigantic army of Fel Orcs that would've just added to the Legions power.

[Jester Joe]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Garrosh was approached by a rogue Bronze (infinite?) dragonflight dude who gave him the ability to do it. Presumably you're saying that if not Garrosh they would have found someone else suitable. But who? Garrosh was kinda critical in many ways to giving the Iron Horde their advantages...

Honestly though I'll be the first to admit I@m kinda ropey on WoD lore onwards . . .

It was Wrathion who said to use Garrosh I'm pretty sure, not that he was critical.

I thought the hourglass was even made at Wrathion's suggestion though, I'm not sure about that though.

[Super Kami Dende]

I compare Garrosh to Trump... wait non-political, right.

OT: We'd of all been killed off by now

That's silly, because Garrosh lost.

[Alvito]

He was mentally fractured from the moment we met him in OL. Once he is given some power all that depression, shame and rage he lived with for years bubbles over into what we see through the end of Wrath until Wod. The only way he might not go the way he does is if he was never given power at all.

[AeneasBK]

It was Wrathion who said to use Garrosh I'm pretty sure, not that he was critical.

I thought the hourglass was even made at Wrathion's suggestion though, I'm not sure about that though.

But like I say, which other lore figure (that existed at that stage at least) would have been able to orchestrate what Garrosh managed (or even has the incentive to). I suppose Wrathion could have taken the form of Garrosh and got his own hands dirty, but what would the reaction of the spirits of Nagrand etc. have been if it wasn't Garrosh himself (tbf I'd have to go reread that short story).

Without Garrosh to go back to stop Grom from drinking the Legion Kool-aid, Gul'dan likely would've had a gigantic army of Fel Orcs that would've just added to the Legions power.

At this stage though, are we accepting the possibility of infinite Gul'dans from infinte AU's coming and helping the Legion (which was always a possibility when they released the lore abortion that WoD was...)...

[Jester Joe]

But like I say, which other lore figure (that existed at that stage at least) would have been able to orchestrate what Garrosh managed (or even has the incentive to). I suppose Wrathion could have taken the form of Garrosh and got his own hands dirty, but what would the reaction of the spirits of Nagrand etc. have been if it wasn't Garrosh himself (tbf I'd have to go reread that short story).

Oh, what I'm saying is that without Wrathion having a reason to send Garrosh back, it wouldn't have happened at all.

Basically I agree that without it being Garrosh, WoD wouldn't have happened.

[Woop Woop]

The timetravel and alternative timelines should never have been a thing it's just bad writing.

[Thimagryn]

But like I say, which other lore figure (that existed at that stage at least) would have been able to orchestrate what Garrosh managed (or even has the incentive to).

I don't think it even has to be an existing lore figure. The reason Garrosh was even able to time travel was because of a character that was conveniently introduced to us mere months before WoD was announced.

[Teri]

It's funny, on my shaman which is now 107, I basicly leveled it from 80-90 in Cataclysm only zones, didn't do any Pandaria content, guess what.

Garrosh is still in orgrimmar And yes I did do broken shore where Vol'jin dies and Sylvanas takes over.