Page 73 of 101 FirstFirst ...
23
63
71
72
73
74
75
83
... LastLast
  1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Krokofant View Post
    I have belt, prydaz and trinket as legendary choices for my bm hunter.
    If i go by icy-veins sims i should choose belt+trinket.
    But does this take into consideration what options you have as non-legendary.

    I mean there are some really nice none-legendary trinkets out there compared to non-legendary necks.

    I am sort of wondering if it would be better to use prydaz+belt if i have some special trinkets?
    It may come down to a fight per fight choice for you really. Prydaz is typically a very strong legendary for progress as it's almost an extra life in some cases, because of the stats the DPS benefit is also substantial. The legendary trinket is very strong for AoE fights, and the belt is universally useful.

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    Can anyone confirm if these changes in Simc are correct?
    Yes they are correct. But it is more apl related than Bugfixing. Flanking Strike was way too low in the apl in early 7.1.5.

  3. #1443
    I have had a question for some time now and I am not sure if I got things right.

    It is concerning gearing and stat choices.

    While looking at the MM hunter guide at icyveins, the recommended stat priority is
    1. Mastery
    2. Crit
    3. Haste
    (Ignoring versatility/agility/wdps for now as it is not relevant to my point/question)

    My overall stats are as following:
    Mastery: 24,69 %
    Crit: 26,44 %
    Haste: 11,60 %

    Now I do run myself in simcraft to determine my statweights in order to determine potential itemupgrades. The results are as following:

    Statweights for 1 Target: Agility: 15,65 / Mastery: 19,94 / Crit: 18,22 / Haste: 18,68
    Statweights for 3 Targets: Agility: 29,84 / Mastery: 39,80 / Crit: 34,19 / Haste: 34,40

    In both scenarios, ST and MT, crit is rated lower than haste.

    Now my question is, aren't those results misleading though?

    The guide on icyveins also mentions that there isn't such a thing as a softcap for haste. So why is it simming such a high value to haste when crit is apparently the better stat?

    I also noticed a trend while browsing the armory of some hunters with top logs / that play in well-progressed guilds. A larger part of those players tend to go for really high values of crit (+- 35%) and rather low values of haste (+- 7% - 9%).

    Should I be looking to max my crit rating instead of trusting the statweights from simcraft and thus ignoring haste?

    Bonus related question: I have an 870 ring with crit/mastery and 890 ring with mastery/haste. My stats I mentioned above are those while equipped with the 890 mastery/haste ring. If I go for the 870 crit/mastery ring, my critrating goes up to roughly 31%, mastery down to 23% and haste down to 8,50% (those are the numbers I remember roughly, currently not at home so I can't check it right now, but I shouldn't be far off). Eventhough the mastery drops +- 1,50%, wouldn't the increase of +-5% crit be more desired? My simcrafts tell me that I am wrong, the mastery/haste ring sims slightly higher in DPS as the lower-itemlvl crit/mastery ring. My feeling, which might be wrong of course, tells me otherwise though.


    I hope someone can help me out and explain this paradox (if I might call it one) to me.

    Thanks in advance.

  4. #1444
    Your stat weights are going to fluctuate based on your current gear. I can tell you that from my own experience that haste is super important until you get to the point where you can comfortably get the MS > Arc > AiS > AiS rotation in effectively.

    My stats are very similar to yours:
    25.01% crit
    11.15% haste
    25.86% mastery
    7.15% versatility

    If i go much below 10% haste and I am playing the Patient Sniper talent, my second AiS is VERY CLOSE to missing the vuln window and if there is even the slightest delay in getting the Arc > AiS > AiS combo off, my last AiS will miss the vuln window. Look at Azor's armory. Currently he is running the PS/TA single target spec and is at 14% haste. This allows a more forgiving rotation when running patient sniper. I personally don't have the gear set aside for it but it would be beneficial to exchange that haste for mastery/crit/verse if you were playing the explosive shot/piercing shot build since the spec relies less on fitting AiS into the vuln window and more on reacting to MT procs and using explosive shot/piercing shot effectively.

    As for why your sims are telling you to value haste so high I have no idea. There is an ongoing debate between fully trusting the sims vs applying more of a feelscraft and using what you perform best with personally.

  5. #1445
    Quote Originally Posted by Holovik View Post
    Your stat weights are going to fluctuate based on your current gear. I can tell you that from my own experience that haste is super important until you get to the point where you can comfortably get the MS > Arc > AiS > AiS rotation in effectively.
    I do think that ping plays a big part in this too. Is it possible that you play with a somewhat high ping?

    When I equip that 870 crit/mastery ring and drop to 8,5% haste, I still do manage to pull of As - 2x AiS easily inside the vulnerable window. This is another reason why my simmed statweights confuse more, I don't see why more haste would benefit me at this point if I still manage to pull of the combo.

  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpor View Post
    I do think that ping plays a big part in this too. Is it possible that you play with a somewhat high ping?

    When I equip that 870 crit/mastery ring and drop to 8,5% haste, I still do manage to pull of As - 2x AiS easily inside the vulnerable window. This is another reason why my simmed statweights confuse more, I don't see why more haste would benefit me at this point if I still manage to pull of the combo.
    https://gyazo.com/940706f150cc068487f6b2af060a87f0 ping is default set to medium (which is more than most people play with). You may want to put it lower if you didn't know about the option.

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    https://gyazo.com/940706f150cc068487f6b2af060a87f0 ping is default set to medium (which is more than most people play with). You may want to put it lower if you didn't know about the option.
    My simmed statweights are already calculated with ping set to low. Still is ranking haste higher than crit.

    Do you know why this is the case? Am I doing something wrong with my sims or is this normal? How do you handle the crit/haste balance?

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpor View Post
    My simmed statweights are already calculated with ping set to low. Still is ranking haste higher than crit.

    Do you know why this is the case? Am I doing something wrong with my sims or is this normal? How do you handle the crit/haste balance?
    Haste has always been a bit of a "iffy" stat for hunters, namely because allowing a little extra haste might let you push out more of X shots because of cast time/focus regen, swaying your results towards "well, if I had 150 haste more on average I'd get one extra 1M damage aimed shot out, so it's better". This has been helped a lot by doing variable length sims, but generally, Haste is always going to be slightly over valued for hunters because of that. It also helps with RPPM mechanics with means more marking target procs, but very minor amounts of haste won't have a noticeable effect for a player.

    The only other thing I can think of, is your output during trueshot and bloodlust - while you have enough haste at 7-9% to get the "golden" MS-AS-Aimed-Aimed combo off for maximum damage, during Trueshot you often fire 3-4x aimed shots in a row (due to higher focus regen, lower cast time etc). If more haste helps you squeeze out more high-damaging shots during trueshot, that'd have a noticeable impact (and I know from my own experience that my ideal opener usually just barely manages to get an instant marked shot off before trueshot falls off with my ~9% haste - a MS that'd lose 50% crit damage if I go much lower).

    All that being said, your haste/mastery ring is likely always going to beat the crit/mastery one, mainly because of item level. 20 Ilvls between rings is A LOT to make up for, and even if haste is beneath crit, that's so many extra stats that it doesn't surprise me that the 890 pulls ahead.


    Personally, I don't parse particularly well and focus more on killing bosses than maximizing output (I'm the dude who sees an add at 10% on krosus and starts firing off an aimed shot incase nobody else decides to hit it because "HOLY FUCK YOU SHITHEADS THE ADDS HAVE TO DIE", rather than try to maintain my TA stacks on the boss), which means I favor having a decent amount of haste (9-11%), as it helps me cover for movement and switching more easily. Good hunters go with lower haste because they're better at standing still than I am, though.
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2017-02-23 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #1449
    Haste doesn't really change your core rotation, all it does is let you cast everything a little faster. A 1% gain in haste means you'll cast 1% more Marked Shots, 1% more Aimed Shots and 1% more Arcane shots (also 1% more Volleys if you have that talent). This effectively translates to a 1% increase in total damage on average (although in reality it's slightly less than 1% once we include things like Windburst/Crows/Explosive/Piercing Shot which are not affected by haste, but this is mitigated slightly by the fact that haste also slightly increases the uptime on Trueshot due to the boots/set bonus/convergence trinket).

    In general, a 1% increase in crit chance also results in a 1% increase in total damage on average. But then we have to include things like the 50% bonus crit damage during Trueshot, 10% bonus crit damage to Aimed Shots due to Deadly Aim, and the 5 extra focus generated when Arcane Shot crits. This means that a 1% increase in crit results in slightly more than a 1% increase in total damage on average.

    So if you have 0% haste and 0% crit, then 1% crit would definitely be better than 1% haste. However, it's important to understand that the damage increase from each stat is additive, so if you had a 40% damage increase from a stat and added another 1% to go to a 41% damage increase, you haven't really increased your overall damage by 1%, in the sense that if you were doing 100k DPS, you would not see an increase of 1k DPS. This means that the more of one stat that you stack, the less effective it becomes compared to stacking another stat.

    So the more crit you have, the more valuable haste becomes. Keep in mind that our crit chance starts off fairly inflated compared to haste: we start with a base crit chance of 16% with have no crit rating at all, then we gain a whole lot of crit from our artifact traits (+6% to Aimed Shot crit chance due to Marked for Death and +10% increase in Marked Shot crit chance due to Precision). It also actually takes slightly less haste rating to gain 1% haste than it takes in crit rating to gain 1% crit (375 haste rating per 1% haste versus 400 crit rating per 1% crit). So I don't find it fairly surprising that haste overtakes crit at a reasonably low level of crit rating.

    Incidentally, it takes 475 versatility to gain a 1% damage boost from versatility, which is likely why it's worse than haste to begin with (but in theory, it should beat haste once you've stacked enough haste). Also, it only takes 160 mastery to gain a 1% increase in damage to focus spenders, which explains why mastery is so powerful for MM hunters.
    Last edited by Turtel; 2017-02-23 at 01:07 PM.

  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Personally, I don't parse particularly well and focus more on killing bosses than maximizing output (I'm the dude who sees an add at 10% on krosus and starts firing off an aimed shot incase nobody else decides to hit it because "HOLY FUCK YOU SHITHEADS THE ADDS HAVE TO DIE", rather than try to maintain my TA stacks on the boss), which means I favor having a decent amount of haste (9-11%), as it helps me cover for movement and switching more easily. Good hunters go with lower haste because they're better at standing still than I am, though.
    You can always tell a good raid leader/guild master from a bad one by decisions like this. Basically, if there's a shit duty that has to be done, I'm volunteering for it. We got Botanist in 35 attempts because I basically said "Don't worry about Call of Night. I've got this for the whole fight." while simultaneously calling out reminders on every mechanic, damage mitigation, etc.

    Heroics are the only time I get to really relax and push specs. Mythics, I have to focus on getting us a kill within as few attempts as possible during the limited raid schedule. The only time I get to worry about parsing is after I feel like we have enough understanding of the mechanics that I can stop doing the shit jobs, or enough gear that certain heal/dps checks are safe enough that we can lust at optimal places for parsing (it took us a while to get Chronomatic to that point, for instance, because our heals needed the lust for the slow phase for a while).

    One of the more interesting things about this tier for hunters has been that we actually have at least two specs that can comfortably get through most progression. The reason I have stuck to BM is not because I necessarily like it more or that I have better gear/artifact for it (I'm 54 artifact traits in both and have been since first week or two of the tier), but because it allows me to focus on what is necessary to get through the mechanics carry that I tend to do as raid lead. BM allows movement while dpsing and is less punishing about the exact situation you mentioned (for MM, using an unbuffed AiS on an add because it is important for killing the encounter). BM has pet travel time, but if you need this kind of instant reaction, you can spec Blink Strikes and also utilize the fast travel time of KC when necessary. Hati is still a bit of a problem, but the increased speed is noticeable and certainly appreciated.

    If there is one thing I miss about old MM incarnations, it's the ability to move and dps and focus on mechanics while still doing reasonable dps. I don't like the severe punishment on target switching (not just on TA builds but anything that you can't put Vulnerability on instantly). This is obviously something that is hard to quantify in sims. The closest we can do is add helter skelter or movements to sims with target switching, but that still doesn't tell the whole story, and it's overly conservative too.

    Theorycrafting can tell you the theoretical maxes, but it's not necessarily meant to give you the absolute definitive recommendation on a spec or "stat weights", the latter of which as I've said many times, I feel are not overly useful unless stat plots are consistent in slope. The distinction between haste and crit, for instance, on movement is worth noting in any recommendation. So is looking at the overall stat plot for your gear, rather than instantaneous weights. With weights, every time you change a piece of gear, you are chasing a new set of weights for most specs (not just hunters), and this is usually a waste of time since the majority of dps gains/losses are from changes in rotation or talents.
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2017-02-24 at 07:55 PM.

  11. #1451
    @Effinhunter

    Done any work on sims for 7.2?

    Particular interested on the performance of 7.2 traits, such as new traits versus getting 4/4 in older traits.

  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by Khrux View Post
    @Effinhunter

    Done any work on sims for 7.2?

    Particular interested on the performance of 7.2 traits, such as new traits versus getting 4/4 in older traits.
    +1

    I havent seeing any topics for mm for that.

    I think i will go for:

    Quick Shot
    Marked of Dead
    Deadly Aim

    Does someone tested the final trait Cyclonic Burst?
    Last edited by nidosarg; 2017-03-27 at 04:03 PM.

  13. #1453
    I mean, napkin math alone shows 4/4 vulnerable trait and cyclonic burst as a 20-25% dps increase on single target. Think about it a little; your aimed shot goes up by 20-40% damage depending on what level of patient sniper you're at. Aimed does 50-60% of your damage, which means that's a 10-20% damage boost, straight up.

    Cyclonic burst adds 300*5 = 1500% weapon damage to windbursts current 800% damage. Windburst does about 5% of your damage on a single target. That means 800->2300 gives a ~10% increase in overall damage.

    Meanwhile, you're looking at:
    2% Crit on aimed (~1%).
    3.33% marked shot, crit or straight damage (~1% with marked shot at 30% of your dmg, which is a LOT, probably lower on single).

    Alternatively, trueshot reduction etc, but yea - vulnerable and cyclonic are MASSIVE boosts. Going for the old traits is a terrible idea.

  14. #1454
    I'm concerned with the BM traits. I haven't seen any Sims for BM traits yet, but some of our 3/3 traits are particularly strong which has me question just how good slithering 4/4 is....

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I mean, napkin math alone shows 4/4 vulnerable trait and cyclonic burst as a 20-25% dps increase on single target. Think about it a little; your aimed shot goes up by 20-40% damage depending on what level of patient sniper you're at. Aimed does 50-60% of your damage, which means that's a 10-20% damage boost, straight up.

    Cyclonic burst adds 300*5 = 1500% weapon damage to windbursts current 800% damage. Windburst does about 5% of your damage on a single target. That means 800->2300 gives a ~10% increase in overall damage.

    Meanwhile, you're looking at:
    2% Crit on aimed (~1%).
    3.33% marked shot, crit or straight damage (~1% with marked shot at 30% of your dmg, which is a LOT, probably lower on single).

    Alternatively, trueshot reduction etc, but yea - vulnerable and cyclonic are MASSIVE boosts. Going for the old traits is a terrible idea.
    Thanks a lot for the math

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by nidosarg View Post
    Thanks a lot for the math
    Huntorz found an inconsistency - it's 800% wep dmg initial windburst, not AP. Golden trait is only 4-5% on single target, not 10% (so it'll do close to the same as the main "hit"). Still superior to anything else - 2 traits for 4-5% dmg is more than we can scrounge up from anywhere else.

  17. #1457
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I mean, napkin math alone shows 4/4 vulnerable trait and cyclonic burst as a 20-25% dps increase on single target. Think about it a little; your aimed shot goes up by 20-40% damage depending on what level of patient sniper you're at. Aimed does 50-60% of your damage, which means that's a 10-20% damage boost, straight up.
    Your math on 4/4 vulnerable trait is weird. It adds 40% to base vulnerability. With patient sniper it means it buffs aimed from 240/200=1.2 => 20% (fresh vulnerability) to 300/260=1.153 => ~15% (6s into vulnerability). Which is roughly (if we take aimed as 50-60% of our damage) 9% increase.
    I didn't PTR test it and think new vulnerability trait is additive not multiplicative. Am I wrong on that?

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by nidosarg View Post
    +1

    I havent seeing any topics for mm for that.

    I think i will go for:

    Quick Shot
    Marked of Dead
    Deadly Aim

    Does someone tested the final trait Cyclonic Burst?
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...IcFhZr94Q/edit was on the hunter discord, and I'd definitely agree that windrunners>deadly considering the nerf to deadly.

  19. #1459
    Quote Originally Posted by osa View Post
    Your math on 4/4 vulnerable trait is weird. It adds 40% to base vulnerability. With patient sniper it means it buffs aimed from 240/200=1.2 => 20% (fresh vulnerability) to 300/260=1.153 => ~15% (6s into vulnerability). Which is roughly (if we take aimed as 50-60% of our damage) 9% increase.
    I didn't PTR test it and think new vulnerability trait is additive not multiplicative. Am I wrong on that?
    You might be entirely right, as I've just been factoring in the raw buff, rather than the base damage - to show what I did:

    100% base vuln buff.
    20-60% sniper training added, depending on what part of ST you're at.

    120/160 (100 base+20% ST, divided with 140 base+20% ST after traits) = 0.75 (ergo, 25% increase).
    160/200 (100 base+60% ST, divided with 140 base+60% ST after traits) = 0.8 (ergo, 20% increase).

    Course, it'd probably be more prudent to use aimed shot's raw damage as a measurement instead, so doing those numbers:

    Aimed shot base = 275% damage per shot.
    Vuln base = 100% added damage - making it 550% dmg per shot.

    Vuln base+40% = 660% after traits - or about 17% gain.

    Adding in sniper training;

    120% with 20% ST and no traits = 605%.
    160% with 20% ST and traits = 715%.
    605/715 = 0.846, or about a ~15.4% increase with the new traits.

    At max power:

    160% with 60% ST and no traits = 715%.
    200% with 60% ST and traits = 825%.
    715/825 = 0.8667, or about a ~13.4% increase.


    Of course, these are all cut with 40-50%, as aimed shot isn't all our damage, so you're probably roughly right - 7-9% raw DPS gain, down to me being stupid with the way I'm calculating stuff.
    Of course, this is also going to be amplified a lot come T20's set bonuses, as both are heavily focused on aimed shot (increasing cost efficiency and cast speed of aimed), but for now, you're entirely right - unlocking the 4x vuln traits probably sees about 2-3% dps gain per.


    This is why a back and forth is good, people get to catch the errors others make .

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Adding in sniper training;

    120% with 20% ST and no traits = 605%.
    160% with 20% ST and traits = 715%.
    605/715 = 0.846, or about a ~15.4% increase with the new traits.

    At max power:

    160% with 60% ST and no traits = 715%.
    200% with 60% ST and traits = 825%.
    715/825 = 0.8667, or about a ~13.4% increase.
    Now this is wrong, if you want to calculate gain from something new you need to divide new value by old value not vice versa.
    So taking your example gains should be:

    715/605 = 1.182 =~ 18% increase at 2s vuln
    and
    825/715 = 1.154 =~ 15% increase at 6s vuln

    And no need to complicate with 275% aimed base damage, it's totally irrelevant for the cause of calculating it's gain with vulnerable. Just take it as base, as i did in previous example.

    So it's simply
    (220+40)/220 = 1.182 =~ 18% increase at 2s vuln
    and
    (260+40)/260 = 1.154 =~ 15% increase at 6s vuln

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •