Greece economic woes worsen as IMF says greece should have left Eurozone

[Slant]

So, it's pretty much normal then and not as dire as @Slant portrayed. Thanks for clearing that out. I wasn't expecting something else. At no point, I suggested Greeks love/like Turks. I just rejected an all-out hate, as some guy above us said, towards Turks. Having personal grudges for generations doesn't fit to the human nature.

I'll quote myself, before you get the idea you're somehow proving me wrong...

And it's not an insult, every Greek will confirm this. They do not like you at all. The best reaction to you guys is "I don't like them" and the worst is the stuff you see in Cyprus.

Just to put this in some context.

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So have you some good exampel how you spend yoursef out from a crisis?

Germany. Albeit we didn't actually spend our money. We spent American money. A lot of it. And then we started contributing and everyone profitted from it. And now we're the centre of a very peaceful little project called European Union. I think, in hindsight, that was the best US investment in the history of investments made by the US.

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Hey we both got to the semi stage in Euro 2016, if we hadn't both been eliminated it could have been a cracking final :P

Oh god, it would be a final that'd last us another 50 years of banter, I'm sure. We have to make it happen!

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You know you are being destroyed with all your statement shifts and backpaddlings. I doubt "I am playing around, just having fun with him" card will help you...but this is your modus operandi, isn't it?

Oh no, I mean everything I said. But normally I'd just ignore you. I'm replying to you, because it's funny to see just how far the brainwash in your head goes. That's the fun bit.

[Allenseiei]

You are naive if you think a minor country can actually lie to the superpowers.

Then you lack a lot of understanding in how people can and in fact do make their accounting numbers pretier, specially in 1981, and much easier in before the crisis. In fact, not only Greece, but Spain and other countries also managed to hide their deficit untill the new government stepped in. There is a thing called confidence, and as long as you still have a thread of it, people will buy what you say if its credible.
Companies and Countries do it if they have credibility. A country has much more than a company, since its risking the lives of its citizens as leeway.

Greece's 1981 numbers were credible, they weren't saying they had DGP variables that competed with Germany or France, but they made them pretier so that they could fool the requirements. During the next 25 years, Greece has been doing it constantly while the confidence was still in place (even though in 2001 the Central EU bank had to step in to rescue Greece and return its credibility towards investment). Why did the EU buddies did not suspect Greece? Because no one thought any country would be so irresponsible to sell the futures of their citizens by incurring into the debt Greece is now.

Greece sold the future of their citizens for a prettier present by incurring in lies and debt so great that it will probably never be able to pay. I'm sure in a few years they will get at least a pardon of 70% of the debt, since Greece has problems even paying the dividends. This is not the era of Aristoteles or the gold era of Athens, Greece has nothing to offer, and all the billions it could've used to create a much better economy were wasted in overpaying public jobs.

Forget leaving the EU, Greece should have never joined it in the first place. Leaving the EU would bring some benefit to Greece? I think its too late for that. Hyperinflation is what awaits Greece once its out of the EU, they might be rescued by Russia at a very very high price though.

[Flarelaine]

The problem with Greece is that they have no clear direction.

1. Wasting money on military hardware that isn't needed given their geographic location and mountainous terrain and natural barriers. How much does the Swiss invest in military? Are they less prepared than the Greeks? No.

The Swiss spend a fuckton of money on military hardware. And defensive construction as well, even though they are even more mountainous.

[Phlegethon]

Let the banks fail, screw them. The United States can take the blame for their own shitty economy, Greece is responsible for theirs. Greece would have completely collapsed if other countries did not step in. They may be in bad shape at the moment, but they are better off than they would have been. Until the people of Greece stop pushing for an unsustainable path, they will continue to fail.

No, Greece had to save the banks and then the economy collapsed. Iceland said screw it and is fine now, that's what Greece should have been able to do, but they were not allowed to.

[Machismo]

No, Greece had to save the banks and then the economy collapsed. Iceland said screw it and is fine now, that's what Greece should have been able to do, but they were not allowed to.

Greece didn't have to save the banks. they also didn't have to have so many ridiculous social and welfare programs.

[Mafic]

The Swiss spend a fuckton of money on military hardware. And defensive construction as well, even though they are even more mountainous.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

I looked it up and the Swiss spend 0.7% of GDP on military for 2015. Greece in comparisons spends 2.6% of GDP on military for 2015.

So lets put these numbers into something we can compare since it is obvious the Swiss have a greater GDP than Greece:

Swiss $670 billion GDP x 0.7% = 4.69 billion.

Greece $194 billion GDP x 2.6% = 5.044 billion

So, not only do the Swiss have a stronger economy, but they are efficient in having a defense force. Greece, which also has the benefit of having large bodies of water surrounding the country is simply put wasting money on military hardware. Money is better spent growing their economy as the Greek economy since 2015 has seen massive contractions in growth.

[Deleted]

Bulgarians can go love themselves man. No one , save for Russia looking for more pawns, is interested in you, to be honest. And this is not Neo-Ottomanism, what I suggested is a product of "hellenoturkism". Although I am not a particular admirer of that ideology, the need for improved cooperation for both Greece's and Turkey's sake is obvious.

Just convert to orthodoxy and restore the bizantine empire :>

[Deleted]

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

I looked it up and the Swiss spend 0.7% of GDP on military for 2015. Greece in comparisons spends 2.6% of GDP on military for 2015.

So lets put these numbers into something we can compare since it is obvious the Swiss have a greater GDP than Greece:

Swiss $670 billion GDP x 0.7% = 4.69 billion.

Greece $194 billion GDP x 2.6% = 5.044 billion

So, not only do the Swiss have a stronger economy, but they are efficient in having a defense force. Greece, which also has the benefit of having large bodies of water surrounding the country is simply put wasting money on military hardware. Money is better spent growing their economy as the Greek economy since 2015 has seen massive contractions in growth.

to be fair the greeks need a military due to constant turkish agression and provocation where the swiss dont really need to spend much on the army
the day they disband or do major cuts is the day that i'm fairly sure erdogan could get bold enough to do something really stuppid

[Deleted]

to be fair the greeks need a military due to constant turkish agression and provocation

But then say so to the greec puplic, politician Aenigma1 think the military threat from Turkey is so dire that social welfare ned to be sacrificed in favor of a strong military.

Or if the greec puplic want social welfare do that Germany did, gave up all claims on disputed land. it really improved the Germany/Poland relation.

No, Greece had to save the banks and then the economy collapsed. Iceland said screw it and is fine now, that's what Greece should have been able to do, but they were not allowed to.

You know that Iceland did? They did save the banks (nationalized them) from wiki "fiscal consolidation, involving painful austerity measures and significant tax hikes"

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/icel...ernment-budget

That did fix the budget deficit, from -13.1% in 2008 then deepest crise to -0,5% 2015

[Zython]

Maybe the government of Greece should have been more responsible with how they ran their country.

Maybe Greece shouldn't have elected the Golden Dawn to solve their economic woes. Until those fucks get what they deserve, Greece gets what it deserves.

[Cyanu]

seriously why so many people have so heated opinions about a country they know so little about and has such a small impact on their lives? a couple of comments:

regarding military spending: defense will always get priority over economy and generally lecturing a country about it's defense spending is pretty pointless, the reality is that if you share boarders with revisionists you WILL spend a ton on defense as it's the only way to have peace, it doesn't matter if you're left/right or alien, the idea of just abandoning contested grounds is suicidal as this will only embolden revisionst claims, the only responsible attitude is to be adamant in favor of the territorial status quo aka NO boarder changes no matter what, unfortunately for your opinion about boarders to matter you need to defend them with something, that something costs money

now the other matter is that Greece is tied with Cyprus , we're one people and the Greek armed forces will defend Cyprus at any cost, Thrace and the major Aegean islands may be safe but Greece is at a vast disadvantage over Cyprus (which is currently occupied by Turkish forces which installed a puppet government which the UN has given a strict guideline that no state should recognize-currently only Turkey recognizes it)

in other words the threat is real, it will cost and 'opinions' about this matter are largely irrelevant, Greece has no reason to expect anyone's actual support on the matter (of course everyone will verbally condemn the aggressor but Cyprus is no less occupied due to words and as of now tensions are rising dangerously, a war is likely in the next decades and it's a reality everyone accepts regardless of left/right wing bias)

regarding the Golden Dawn: it's neonazi and it's ugly, all countries have some expression of the far right, during times of crisis it gets worse, but still it's actual numbers are largely based due to the fact that many did not vote out of resentment for the political system, also the Golden Dawn is marginalized by everyone else, everyone treats this party like a leper and it has a hard cap, a ceiling,as the majority of Greeks despise it, so it can't get very far, it's also worth noting that most of it's votes are for revenge on the political establishment and not due to sharing it's beliefs, it's the vote that hurts the most, that's why those who lost everything are doing it

regarding responsibility: BS really, national debts are the canon not the exception, that's how the world functions, outside of the eurozone it wouldn't be much of a problem, ofc the Greek debt is a bit too high, but not as high as most seem to think, it's about ~0.5% of the total EU debt, the fight over Greece is not about Greece, it's about the direction EU will take: will it follow the French vision or the German vision for EU? essentially EU is rapidly turning into a financial battleground of North vs South, the value of Greece is mostly symbolic and not financial

regarding austerity/reforms: the Greek people are strongly in favor of any reform that helps against corruption and improves government efficieny, they reject austerity not out of ideology but because after years of trying it is obviously NOT working, their life qualities get worse and worse while the countries finances do not seem to get better, therefore common sense dictates that we should try something else?

regarding morality/virtue: anyone who believes that those two are somehow related to this discussion, is a typical stupid right wing voter full of accusations for other countries and full of excuses for it's own, we have such people too, generally they look better when they don't speak much about non domestic matters, the situation demands pragmatism: if Greece collapses we all lose, Greeks for obvious reasons and non-Greeks because not only they lose an ally but because they'll never get their money back, the only viable solution is to give Greece time to recover, once it does it will be able to pay off it's debts, remain in the EU/NATO sphere and all are happy, otherwise the EU just shoots it's legs by inviting even more instability in it's yard in a world that's getting madder and more chaotic every year

[Deleted]

Regarding military spending: defense will always get priority over economy and generally lecturing a country about it's defense spending is pretty pointless, in other words the threat is real, it will cost and 'opinions' about this matter are largely irrelevant,

Ok Erythros then tell the Greek people that they have to give up social welfare becuse military needs have priority.

regarding responsibility: BS really, national debts are the canon not the exception, that's how the world functions, outside of the eurozone it wouldn't be much of a problem, ofc the Greek debt is a bit too high, but not as high as most seem to think,

Is that not a paradox if the debts only are a bit too high why do Greece claim they need debt relief.

but because after years of trying it is obviously NOT working, their life qualities get worse and worse while the countries finances do not seem to get better, therefore common sense dictates that we should try something else?

The attitude is like a patient that is overweight who complain to the doctor that exercise do not helpe becuse then he did try it, he did get muscle soreness. Iceland and Ireland did recover.

[Cyanu]

Ok Erythros then tell the Greek people that they have to give up social welfare becuse military needs to have priority.




Is that not a paradox if the debts only are a bit too high why do Greece claim they need debt relief.




The attitude is like a patient that is overweight who complain to the doctor that exercise do not helpe becuse then he did try it, he did get muscle soreness. Iceland and Ireland did recover.

military spending is an off-topic and none is asking for it to be cut save the most extreme left wing utopia advocates (tiny minority)

as for the supposed social wellfare what about it? is there any country in EU that does not have some form of wellfare? what do you know about it? i'm willing to bet what you heard in random right wing populist statements/articles?

how exactly do you picture life in greece? you think one can expect money from some wellfare program? the reality is more like: after spending roughly a year looking for a job (and that's a full time job on it's own, expect it doesn't pay) you'll eventually get a full time job that will pay little and demand alot from you, you will be constantly working over time WITHOUT EXTRA PAYMENT and you'll just shut up about it (despite it's illlegal) because everyone knows that your boss can replace you on a whim (due to the unemployment rate an the fact that almost everyone is overqualified for most of the simple jobs left)

you can live with the salary you earn but there's a problem: it's not enough to support a family, what you're going to do about it, it's your problem, the answer is probably don't start a family

now if you work your ass off, you'll eventually get a pension that's barely enough for food and rent when you're ~65-67, there's a reason you don't see Greek pensioners roaming the world when they retire like most western EU ones do, because they simply can't afford it

our social wellfare rocks, everyone who doesn't know a shit about Greece can confirm you that, that's why all refugees want to live their dream in Greece! oh wait we're keeping them here because the countries they actually want to go to have closed their boarders...

now wether Greece needs debt relief or not is debatable, note that the relief could also be in the form of time and NOT money, which makes alot of sense and cound benefit everyone in the longterm

your comment on austerity it's BS, prominent economists and politicans all over the world are lashing at it, the fact that a different dose of it on a different economy kinda worked does not mean it works in generally, overall IMF is a failed institution leaving only poverty and misery in it's wake, the onlyl effective part of it is 'motivation' to get the fuck out of it's programs asap

as for your obese patient, are you into yellow press or something? they love that example, Bild and the likes, btw we'd appreciate it if you could sent us older copies of those 'newspapers' toilet paper is getting expensive lately

[Slant]

The attitude is like a patient that is overweight who complain to the doctor that exercise do not helpe becuse then he did try it, he did get muscle soreness. Iceland and Ireland did recover.

That is actually... quite the apt analogy.

[Slant]

military spending is an off-topic and none is asking for it to be cut save the most extreme left wing utopia advocates (tiny minority)

as for the supposed social wellfare what about it? is there any country in EU that does not have some form of wellfare? what do you know about it? i'm willing to bet what you heard in random right wing populist statements/articles?

how exactly do you picture life in greece? you think one can expect money from some wellfare program? the reality is more like: after spending roughly a year looking for a job (and that's a full time job on it's own, expect it doesn't pay) you'll eventually get a full time job that will pay little and demand alot from you, you will be constantly working over time WITHOUT EXTRA PAYMENT and you'll just shut up about it (despite it's illlegal) because everyone knows that your boss can replace you on a whim (due to the unemployment rate an the fact that almost everyone is overqualified for most of the simple jobs left)

you can live with the salary you earn but there's a problem: it's not enough to support a family, what you're going to do about it, it's your problem, the answer is probably don't start a family

now if you work your ass off, you'll eventually get a pension that's barely enough for food and rent when you're ~65-67, there's a reason you don't see Greek pensioners roaming the world when they retire like most western EU ones do, because they simply can't afford it

our social wellfare rocks, everyone who doesn't know a shit about Greece can confirm you that, that's why all refugees want to live their dream in Greece! oh wait we're keeping them here because the countries they actually want to go to have closed their boarders...

now wether Greece needs debt relief or not is debatable, note that the relief could also be in the form of time and NOT money, which makes alot of sense and cound benefit everyone in the longterm

your comment on austerity it's BS, prominent economists and politicans all over the world are lashing at it, the fact that a different dose of it on a different economy kinda worked does not mean it works in generally, overall IMF is a failed institution leaving only poverty and misery in it's wake, the onlyl effective part of it is 'motivation' to get the fuck out of it's programs asap

as for your obese patient, are you into yellow press or something? they love that example, Bild and the likes, btw we'd appreciate it if you could sent us older copies of those 'newspapers' toilet paper is getting expensive lately

Couple things, since you ask how we think life in Greece is:

1. I think Greece like to complain a lot, but are hardly starving. The reason why Greeks rioted or protested seems more that they can't buy luxury items they feel entitled to than an actual danger of their well being.
2. How many people in Germany do you think work overtime without payment? Do you think it's all chocolate and rose dust up our asses here? Try working regular hours in a small middle class business... :P
3. Most families in Germany have both parents working. Why? Because one salary isn't enough to start a family... What are you telling me? That you can't support a family without two people on a job? Big surprise... you're not the only one.
4. Close your borders? If Greece has a problem with border security, ask for help. Don't wait until you got hundreds of thousands on your islands and don't know what to do with them...
5. We have given you loans with very long term due dates. And we have extended them. Again and again. You are being given time. Use it.
6. Austerity works. But you need a proper Government for it, civil servants that aren't corrupt and use up the little money you have for their own pockets. You're blaming all and everyone else but yourselves. You still haven't realised the problem is you, not the rest of the world. We're giving you a helping hand, but it is going to be you that has to work your ass off to fix this. YOU. Nobody else. And you're going to have to work probably half your life to fix the shit your parents left behind for you. Blame them. And get cracking, because those due dates won't be pushed back forever.

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Did they ever reach the same levels of unemployment and poverty that Greece currently has? There is a point where a doctor will suggest exercise and a healthier died. And then there is a point when the patient is so morbidly obese, they will suggest a gastric bypass. There is muscle soreness and then there is fainting because you are so obese you cannot breathe properly while exercising and muscles snap. The analogy works still.

Iceland and Ireland had advantages that Greece doesn't have. And they panicked so hard they basically agreed to everything that the EU asked of them. Everyone in Iceland and Ireland understood that it's not the EUs problem they fucked up their banking sectors. Greece on the other hand blames the EU for everything. That's the main difference. The willingness to roll up arm sleeves and fix shit themselves is severely lacking.

[Slant]

We implemented school lunches for the first time since forever in Greece because in the poor neighborhoods we have children fainting from hunger. A country that prided on having nearly no homeless people is inundated with the homeless in all urban centers. Every church in the country is hosting food service for the poor. Yeah, people ARE hungry.

I agree with the rest of what you say but you don't seem to know how bad things have gotten here.

No, I don't. But I also know that Greeks somehow have the notion that everywhere else in the EU seems to be fine. It isn't. If you're suffering hunger, that's too much, I'll admit. Of course, you need to look into the situation in more detail than what I just did. My main point was that with the EU or without the EU, Greece needs to fix itself one way or the other. And it'll hurt both ways. What we're saying is... without the EU, it will hurt more. And it will hurt for longer.

[Deleted]

military spending is an off-topic and none is asking for it to be cut save the most extreme left wing utopia advocates (tiny minority)

Roll my eyes....do you now how arrogant you sound, give me new loan/debt relief so I can spend it on luxury (luxury as in a big military)

as for the supposed social wellfare what about it? is there any country in EU that does not have some form of wellfare?

You argue that cutting military spending was nonnegotiable, then you have to cut somthing else.

you will be constantly working over time WITHOUT EXTRA PAYMENT and you'll just shut up about it (despite it's illlegal) because everyone knows that your boss can replace you on a whim (due to the unemployment rate an the fact that almost everyone is overqualified for most of the simple jobs left)

That is truly horribel, you have my sympathy. But what do you want EU to do about it?

your comment on austerity it's BS, prominent economists and politicans all over the world are lashing at it, the fact that a different dose of it on a different economy kinda worked does not mean it works in generally, overall IMF is a failed institution leaving only poverty and misery in it's wake, the onlyl effective part of it is 'motivation' to get the fuck out of it's programs asap

Sure Greece is so unique so austerity do not work .....fine if you do not want it pull the emergency brake and default and go bankrupt and start over, if you think that is a better idea.

[Cyanu]

That is actually... quite the apt analogy.

disclaimer: before i say anything else i'd like to say that i have great respect for what NW EU has achieved in both social and financial terms, in fact i would really like my country to look like this one day, but:

the obese patient is obese because he has been pigging out non stop and ignoring the obvious signs of his obesity, which leads us to the typical 'virtue economics' which is a funny idea only countries with Protestant roots seem to have, God must be quite a foreman! (irrelevant if you're atheist/catholic or whatever the influence is inevitably there)

these are all populist sentiments and discussion based on such can turn into nothing but a flamefest, for instance you want me to make some edgy/idiotic/populist statements against random countries of the European North?

-Germany was rebuilt due to allies' charity after WW2, mostly american money and the good will of other Europeans who just spared them war reparations

-Scandinavians are drunkards who enjoy unrivaled social wellfare benefits while free-riding on the backs of the americans for their defense, not to mention most of them conveniently 'dodged' WW2 playing the 'neutrality card' (i'm aware of the resistance just spouting nonsense that might sound correct to the ignorant)

no need to continue you get the idea, those are things you say when you're a politician in a room full of low education right wing voters, i don't believe a word of it

how certain you are that the 'fat greek pigs' comments are any different?

now for the comments in your below post, despite all stereotypes working in Greece is alot harder than working in the EU north even according to official EU data (google it), Germany is no mystery to me, i know many people who have lived there Greek and Germans alike, in Germany you have rights as a worker, in Germany the law is protecting you, in Germany your individuality is respected, here those things may or may not be true, generally what we're experiencing is a power shift from workers to employers, we need them desperately but they don't need us (individually), so we just end up accepting whatever terms they impose

as for the fact that Greeks are not starving i'm well aware (some of them are close to it though), they cannot sacrifice more least their condition becomes something unworthy of EU

the family part is complicated, generally it's questionable whether even with two salaries you can afford raising children properly, in fact i'm in the stage of my life in which i want to start a family and it's grossly complicated, i don't know if we can afford it (on our own we can't we rely on the help of both our parents which are getting drained by austerity every year), in fact since my wife is from Cyprus we might end up just moving there

[Deleted]

Did they ever reach the same levels of unemployment and poverty that Greece currently has? There is a point where a doctor will suggest exercise and a healthier died. And then there is a point when the patient is so morbidly obese, they will suggest a gastric bypass. There is muscle soreness and then there is fainting because you are so obese you cannot breathe properly while exercising and muscles snap. The analogy works still.

No but they was not so sick like Greece, not they did not have a luxury thing lika a olympic game...you know that gastric bypass is the last resort becuse its surgery, surgery involving risk, so traditional methods like exercise are preferred.

[Slant]

disclaimer: before i say anything else i'd like to say that i have great respect for what NW EU has achieved in both social and financial terms, in fact i would really like my country to look like this one day, but:

the obese patient is obese because he has been pigging out non stop and ignoring the obvious signs of his obesity, which leads us to the typical 'virtue economics' which is a funny idea only countries with Protestant roots seem to have, God must be quite a foreman! (irrelevant if you're atheist/catholic or whatever the influence is inevitably there)

these are all populist sentiments and discussion based on such can turn into nothing but a flamefest, for instance you want me to make some edgy/idiotic/populist statements against random countries of the European North?

-Germany was rebuilt due to allies' charity after WW2, mostly american money and the good will of other Europeans who just spared them war reparations

-Scandinavians are drunkards who enjoy unrivaled social wellfare benefits while free-riding on the backs of the americans for their defense, not to mention most of them conveniently 'dodged' WW2 playing the 'neutrality card' (i'm aware of the resistance just spouting nonsense that might sound correct to the ignorant)

no need to continue you get the idea, those are things you say when you're a politician in a room full of low education right wing voters, i don't believe a word of it

how certain you are that the 'fat greek pigs' comments are any different?

now for the comments in your below post, despite all stereotypes working in Greece is alot harder than working in the EU north even according to official EU data (google it), Germany is no mystery to me, i know many people who have lived there Greek and Germans alike, in Germany you have rights as a worker, in Germany the law is protecting you, in Germany your individuality is respected, here those things may or may not be true, generally what we're experiencing is a power shift from workers to employers, we need them desperately but they don't need us (individually), so we just end up accepting whatever terms they impose

as for the fact that Greeks are not starving i'm well aware (some of them are close to it though), they cannot sacrifice more least their condition becomes something unworthy of EU

the family part is complicated, generally it's questionable whether even with two salaries you can afford raising children properly, in fact i'm in the stage of my life in which i want to start a family and it's grossly complicated, i don't know if we can afford it (on our own we can't we rely on the help of both our parents which are getting drained by austerity every year), in fact since my wife is from Cyprus we might end up just moving there

Those examples of Germany and Scandinavia? Both true, tbh. But let's move ahead...

What good is working protection in Germany to me as an individual? Are you kidding me? I've witnessed some apprentice get offered a job for less than 1k Euros. An OFFICE job that should pay well over 1500 here. She got her apprentice salary increased by 200 bucks or so. Are you telling me that's protecting workers? What are her options? Go to the court? Do you seriously think after dragging your employer to the court that working there is going to be very enjoyable? Oh, you will get compensated for a couple months, but after that you're not only unemployed, you're unemployed and have been fired, which looks positively shite on your CV. Good luck applying anywhere with that kind of record.

Same goes for working hours. Sure, the law protects you. But... who's actually watching you? When you're there at 5pm and your boss swings by and says oh, btw, I need this done by tomorrow, so... you know, just do a little extra! If you have a strong union representation, you will get some money, but if you don't, you'll just work your ass off. Again, what good is legal protection when dragging your employer to the court is as good as terminating that relationship?

Individuality respected? Haha, do you know what it looks like here? When you pick up a new job, trial time is 3 months usually. Hey, want to know the latest trend in Germany? EVERY company hands you a 1 year limited contract these days. And if you behave well, then maybe they consider giving you an unlimited contract. Fun, innit? If you have a really asshole company, they'll extend that contract one more year, before the law forces them to turn it into an unlimited contract or terminate the employment altogether.

So yeah, how about the one contract extension negotiations where the employer told the employee "I don't want to see your shite face here anymore"? Is that respecting individuality or having super worker's rights in Germany? Do you honestly think that everything is golden palaces here and we have no problems of our own? We deal with it, mate. That's the difference. I don't go to Greece and bitch about German employers disrespecting the workforce. Why are you? Wtf are Germans to do about your power shift to the employers? Where are your unions? Do you know who's making up those unions? It's you the workers that make up those unions. How about you start pointing fingers at your own people and force them to fix shit? We've been waiting for years, get rid of your own fucking corruption and shite politicians. FIX SHIT! GET CRACKING! Jesus Christ...