Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[arr0gance]

So you admit that 54 traits is not compulsory. Now that you admit it, how 'bout you just get better. Improve your game play 3% and that's the same as 6 traits. Pretty easy right?

The problem isn't "getting better," it's that in every situation players will simply grind the additional 6 traits instead. That's time investment. And that's the problem with this stupid fucking system.

[Spacewalrus2010]

Do you even raid Mythic?

Yes.

If you aren't at 54 by the time your guild kills Trilliax, you're either benched or forced to endure feeling like you aren't contributing nearly as much to the raid as the people on your team who have. It's an awful feeling.

If you are raiding for the competitive aspect, this is a reality that you will face and I will have absolutely no sympathy for you.

If not, sounds like you either need to find a new guild or get your emotions in check. It is absolutely not required to have 54 traits. Gear progression is still a thing.

The fact that Blizzard keeps re-enforcing it without even entertaining the idea that it's possible to uncouple the casual players' perception of limitless content and Mythic raiders' latent desire to stay relevant is the reason so many guilds are disbanding due to burnout.

First off it is nowhere near a casual vs mythic raider scenario. It is "Bleeding edge raiders" vs everyone else. Secondly, what exactly would you propose for endless content for the 'causals' while the competitive raiders are satisfied that they don't have to play hours upon hours?

[Nosdrone]

#myhic

10chars

[clevin]

Agree with Ion 100%

This is the first expansion since WoTLK where I've tried to keep up with the content. I raided every week. I did all the quests. I did as much progression content as possible. I couldn't keep up. ?

Uh...... you don't see how that supports the point that it's a poor design if you do all of the standard stuff and still can't keep up?

[threads]

it's true tho.

im sure it's a lot better for the majority of the playerbase to have plenty to do on their main, compared to wod where everyone sat in their garrison waiting for raid reset.

if maintaining 6 alts for every tier burns you out it's not blizzards fault.

[clevin]

The problem isn't "getting better," it's that in every situation players will simply grind the additional 6 traits instead. That's time investment. And that's the problem with this stupid fucking system.

Especially because the extra 6 traits are a guaranteed 3% improvement, every fight. Telling people to not bother getting 54 is like telling people to not worry about getting their tier bonus or in other expansions, their best weapon. People who are into progression will always want to get more power if they can.

[Thage]

I refuse to play this game because of how arrogant and ego maniacal the dev team is, that's my solution. You stated your point fine and Ion has made the point too... they give two shits about mythic raiding. Fine... I'll play a different game... and so will many others.

Judging by posted completion rates every tier, "I'll take my ball and go home!" is a couple thousand accounts. I don't think that's the way to effectively argue your case. You want egomania? Check out Holinka in WoD. Ion is probably one of the more reasonable devs in terms of acknowledging what does and doesn't work. If you do decide to play a different game, I hope it's one you enjoy and don't feel pressured into an unhealthy playstyle by.

For a fairly tuned mythic raid environment they need real rolling weekly caps for AP and several other changes I won't get into here because this game is clearly designed for the casuals now. It's fine, just sad. This used to be a game that both groups of players could enjoy and the fact that the casual group feels some sane changes to level the playing field for mythic raiding would somehow ruin their experience is just crazy. The devs could largely satisfy both groups, but choose not to because the illusion of infinite "content" for casuals is the goal they have thrown all the chips in on. They can't go back now.

Caps have the same problem people are having now. If you miss your cap one week you stress out because you haven't capped, which puts us back at square one. Right now, we're in a situation where developing the entire game around a few thousand Mythic raiders would be a huge problem for casual players, as evidenced by WoD (nearly every damaging change to casual gameplay, be it dungeons, open-world daily questing/reputations, crafting, LFR, and unrated PvP, were cited with "Raiders commonly felt forced to do this, which didn't feel great.").

The end result was that casual players in WoD had some tables to click and reps, dungeons, unrated PvP, LFR, and crafting which were all effectively worthless a few weeks into level cap and took several hasty band-aids in 6.2 (including shoehorning in Pathfinder to pad the completion rates and Season gear to bribe players into Ashran) and they left, many of whom ended up going to games like FFXIV that push out multiple new dungeons and story patches on a like-clockwork three month cycle (one Legion has been copying).

So frankly, I'd be interested to hear what you think would benefit the game in such a way that it babysits the subset of Mythic raiders who can't pace themselves or whose guilds won't let them pace themselves without effectively killing any reward it holds for non-raiding players, 'cause every other time Blizz has tried this it just ends up smelling like, "Developed by raiders, for raiders," with the casual players left with whatever table scraps Blizz deigned to toss their way.

[Deleted]

Like it or not, mythic raiders are vastly outnumbered by the casuals. So yes, their enjoyment take priority over hardcore mythic raiders. And you do not need 54 traits to clear heroic, maybe not even for mythic (excluding WF and Etc). Hardcore raiders will always burn themselves out. There is no escaping that, they will use every hour they have to get an extra advantage.

So yeah, he is telling the truth, if the GL expects you to run maw of souls ad infinitum to get to heroic raiding, he is the one responsible for burning out players.

I don't get it. Everybody is talking about this casual VS hardcore debate, but even from a "casual" standpoint this endless AP farming is terrible. Who seriously want to spend all expansion farming AP for one single spec ? Do you seriously think a casual player would do that ? That doesn't seem very casual to me.

[chronia]

That's where you're wrong. Mythic raiding is designed around playing 80 hours a week. And Ion is the head designer.

Accepting ZERO responsibility for HIS and HIS TEAM'S design is the absolute pinnacle of hubris. This guy is so full of himself it honestly makes me sick.

And where does Blizzard or the dev's say this? I've never seen them saying anything close to the likes of Mythic content is tuned around 80 hours per week.

Its the few top guilds themselved that throw them in the ever growing arms race which started with day raiding, to end up now with Day raiding, 6+ Splits, and massive grinding. Blizzard doesn't tell them to clear the content in a week or 1,5 weeks, raid day and night, level atleast 6 alts with X traits to farm a raid 6 times a week. And yeah, sure the last 3 Mythic bosses are tuned to 54 traits or close to that, but don't forget that it was predicted that players who would farm moderate amounts of AP would hit 54 after 6 months from launch, which is (i think) in a week or 2, so in that regard its not that odd that Blizzard tunes a few Mythic bosses for 54 as a large part of raiding community (hardcore or not) will reach that during NH progress.


But if top guilds want to burn themselves out to be vastly aheard of the curve to participate in a world first race that is totally community driven and not in any part setup by Blizzard that is on those guilds and those guilds alone.And don't get me wrong i have alot of respect for those players putting in alot of effort, and love to watch them. But i don't think they should be babysitted, those players should be old and wise enough to apply some form of self moderation in to their playstyle.

[Deleted]

they give two shits about mythic raiding. Fine... I'll play a different game... and so will many others.

Well, then go on and do it.
Giving, as you say, two shits about mythic raiding,( nowadays it seems WOD was Mythic raiding paradise), nearly made the game fall into oblivion, so i am afraid that because of that they started not giving a damn about mythic raiders dream wow design anymore.´
Also good luck trying to find a MMORPG where developers care so much about hardcore endgame and that it is also populated and getting regularly patches and expansions.

[rogoth]

Got people playing 8~ hours a week, most of that in raids, who are in the high 40's and will be 54 before we get to the last 3 bosses in mythic.

hahahahahaha, you won't get past the dps check of krosus/tichondrius/star augur etraeus nevermind clearing past the first three on mythic, keep dreaming friend.

[Deleted]

Unless they tune mythic bosses to have all available traits, etc. Sure, you can choose not to do 5 alts, split runs etc but if you tune the later bosses to have either 54 traits or a shit ton of gear from earlier bosses (or both) then it is, to a degree, their fault.

Man this is weird. It almost feels like I did something very very wrong in all the expansions where I raided for server first etc. so far.
Because back then, I actually had to gear up properly too, because it felt like bosses were impossible to kill... and sometimes, we had to farm older content too, to gear up a little before we tackle the next boss.

How is that any different now?

I reached 54 traits way before I had the avg. itemlevel most mythic guilds had on Krosus etc.
How are the traits limiting the progress here, and not the itemlevel/dropluck itself... just like in every other expansion so far.

Even if it's the traits, at least now I can actually do something about it. Unlike before.

I also do not understand why there are players, that want to raid mythic, but do not even have 54 traits yet.
Do these players have an easy time clearing HC? If so, why do they not try to Mythic? Are you telling me there are so many ilvl 895/900 (equipped) guys that don't have like ~48+ traits?

[zaino]

That's where you're wrong. Mythic raiding is designed around playing 80 hours a week. And Ion is the head designer.

Accepting ZERO responsibility for HIS and HIS TEAM'S design is the absolute pinnacle of hubris. This guy is so full of himself it honestly makes me sick.

citation fucking needed lmao

[arr0gance]

First off it is nowhere near a casual vs mythic raider scenario. It is "Bleeding edge raiders" vs everyone else. Secondly, what exactly would you propose for endless content for the 'causals' while the competitive raiders are satisfied that they don't have to play hours upon hours?

Leave WQs in the game. Remove AP/AK. Tie player power to gear alone.

Also, where the fuck do you think you get off telling me how I get to play this game? I understand the nature of competitive raiding but I also want to have a life outside of raiding and I dislike that my value as a raider is measured by how many Mythic Maw of Soul runs I can handle before gouging my eyeballs out. But that's too much to ask, apparently. Jimmy McCasualfaggot has to feel like he's in line with the big mean Mythic raiders because AP/AK has to exist without caps. I get that Mythic raiders represent a small portion of the community but the lack of empathy people on this forum have for them is kind of repulsive.

[Deleted]

I don't get it. Everybody is talking about this casual VS hardcore debate, but even from a "casual" standpoint this endless AP farming is terrible. Who seriously want to spend all expansion farming AP for one single spec ? Do you seriously think a casual player would do that ? That doesn't seem very casual to me.

And that is something i may agree with you, but it is a different topic.
We are talking about this sick compulsion some people have of making of wow some kind of e-sport game, that they play for a living, instead of enjoying it as mere players.

[Deleted]

Leave WQs in the game. Remove AP/AK. Tie player power to gear alone.

Back to the old gearing hamster-wheel? No thanks, I like multiple trees of progression.

[cFortyfive]

Ughhhh...

I never said that they ALL had to be 35. I said just a select few. With 35 traits, we could defeat the first 3-4 bosses. For the rest, maybe around 40-54 traits. But, either than that, getting to 54 is quite easy.

yeah yeah sure again show me how well it's going with your band of 35 trait players and how fun it is to fail easy dps checks.

[Nosdrone]

The amount of anger and vitriol on a forum about this video game never ceases to amaze me. These heroin addicts that need their WoW fix are triggered AF all the time.

[IceMan1763]

You want Blizzard to limit the playtime of the players? Because that's basically the only thing they can do to avoid burnouts.

It's not like they didn't tried it in past, with the limit of attempts.

You can't avoid burnouts totally... that's a false equivalency. I'm saying that the introduction of several systems in this xpac actually encourages burnout. You don't limit playtime, you limit the amount of power gain that can be had over X amount of time. That is standard... see loot table lockouts, raid lockouts, valor/conquest/justice points in the past. In fact, this is the first xpac which did not follow that standard design with several systems. Yet Ion blames the guild leaders and not the new systems which encourage grinding and thus, burnout. That's my whole point.

I kind of liked limited attempts but I know many didn't so I wouldn't advocate the return of it. In my mind, there is a big difference between having a 24 hour per week raiding schedule and having a 24 hour per week raiding schedule with another 20-40 hours of grinding added as an additional requirement which the end bosses in the next raid will be tuned around.

Do you honestly not see the difference there? A 24 hour per week raiding schedule never guaranteed additional kills or more progress than a 12 hour per week raiding guild. It's the additional out of raid time requirements which are new, unprecedented, and the brainchilds of this dev team. They could have limited things like dailies from the past or a point system, and chose not to. That is a DEV TEAM DECISION.

[arr0gance]

Back to the old gearing hamster-wheel? No thanks, I like multiple trees of progression.

It worked for six fucking expansions, why change it now?