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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by AlmightyGerkin View Post
    Wow just wow. To place the blame for peoples burnout on the raid leader is just uncomprehenable. Guess they dont get to decide whether to play or not to play and are forced. Bad move on Ion.
    Blizz doesn't force anyone to play there game, if your playing 80 hrs a week as is being thrown about then thats by choice.... and the only person who logs on your char is err you.... any perceived requirements is entirely driven by the guild/raid leaders who run the raids or by the player.

    If you choose to play 80hrs a week and burn out, that is entirely down to either you, or your guilds requirements not any requirements set down by Blizz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    But it's what you need to do to complete firsts.

    So if Blizzard doesn't want it to happen, then why design for it?
    They don't, its entirely player driven.
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by sith View Post
    He's 100% right.

    Blizzard doesn't force people to play 24/7.
    But they still designed the game around it, that's kinda the point.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Blizz doesn't force anyone to play there game, if your playing 80 hrs a week as is being thrown about then thats by choice.... and the only person who logs on your char is err you.... any perceived requirements is entirely driven by the guild/raid leaders who run the raids or by the player.

    If you choose to play 80hrs a week and burn out, that is entirely down to either you, or your guilds requirements not any requirements set down by Blizz.
    It's totally social, so the real question is why is it designed to reward first, and why is it romanticized?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserneko View Post
    Alright, you've convinced me. You've defeated me with your superior intellect and articulate arguments. All hail Jokerfiend.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanelis View Post
    I don't get it. Everybody is talking about this casual VS hardcore debate, but even from a "casual" standpoint this endless AP farming is terrible. Who seriously want to spend all expansion farming AP for one single spec ? Do you seriously think a casual player would do that ? That doesn't seem very casual to me.
    From a casual standpoint, i am gaining ap by playing the game and not farming it endlessly. So the system works for me because i dont race to the finish line. And that is why the debate is between hardcore and casuals. Casuals will play and farm AP reaaaally slowly, the cap is so high that they will not reach it, and the dont need to reach. Hardcore wants ( maybe even needs) to farm to do the proper content.

    The casual get endless progression, which is pretty good.
    I don't want solutions. I want to be mad. - PoorlyDrawnlines

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Shakari View Post
    Blizz doesn't force anyone to play there game, if your playing 80 hrs a week as is being thrown about then thats by choice.... and the only person who logs on your char is err you.... any perceived requirements is entirely driven by the guild/raid leaders who run the raids or by the player.

    If you choose to play 80hrs a week and burn out, that is entirely down to either you, or your guilds requirements not any requirements set down by Blizz.

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    They don't, its entirely player driven.
    I said, but you posted first, that I agree it's totally social, but why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiserneko View Post
    Alright, you've convinced me. You've defeated me with your superior intellect and articulate arguments. All hail Jokerfiend.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    But they still designed the game around it, that's kinda the point.
    These arguments are like getting obese and blaming the store for selling all that food. They're giving everyone anything they want for a price. If you don't want to get fat, don't buy and eat it all. Or, be a responsible human being and take everything in moderation.

  7. #247
    This is the kind of post that I feel is so misleading. The problem isnt that top end raiders put a lot of time in the game and burnout. They have been doing that for many expansions with litte complaints. Like you said, they choose to maintain 5 alts or whatever (Exorsus only had to maintain 2 characters btw). The problem is, that it is such a chore to just spam Mythic+ to no end. That isn't fun no matter how you slice it. THAT is not on the guild leaders. Basically, they could maintain their hardcore gameplay before, but with the current system in place for Artifact Power, it has caused burnout in order to remain competitive.

    Certainly there is something to say about choosing to be competitive. But you cant put that blame on players, because of design choices.

  8. #248
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    He's right though. Players need to be responsible for how much and how long they play. Giving up a significant part of their real life to do mythic raiding is a choice. Some people do it; others don't. Guild leaders need to keep that in mind. Members and leadership of raiding guilds enable one another. I don't think it's completely the guild leader's fault but he/she certainly shares in that.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2017-02-24 at 12:41 AM.
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    Classic blizzard right there, blaming the players and not themselves. Nighthold mythic beyond the 3rd boss is tuned for 54 artifact traits, so im guessing that's the player's fault...
    Classic players right there, blaming Blizzard and not themselves. Nighthold mythic beyond the 3rd boss is tuned for 54 artifact traits, so im guessing thats Blizzards fault that players with no self control max out multiple characters.

  10. #250
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    They couldn't afford me... plus the dev team is clearly filled with idiots so I'd get the job easily.
    wow you are some kinda "special"
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Toisha View Post
    These arguments are like getting obese and blaming the store for selling all that food. They're giving everyone anything they want for a price. If you don't want to get fat, don't buy and eat it all. Or, be a responsible human being and take everything in moderation.
    Yes but Blizzard could easily design the game to specifically avoid these situations, they did it when they moved from Vanilla to TBC and further from TBC to WOTLK... That's them being responsible as game designers, finding the right balance. This time they have specifically done the opposite, why you're comparing this with eating fatty foods I have no idea, it's a completely non comparable situation because of the context.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    Leave WQs in the game. Remove AP/AK. Tie player power to gear alone.

    Also, where the fuck do you think you get off telling me how I get to play this game? I understand the nature of competitive raiding but I also want to have a life outside of raiding and I dislike that my value as a raider is measured by how many Mythic Maw of Soul runs I can handle before gouging my eyeballs out. But that's too much to ask, apparently. Jimmy McCasualfaggot has to feel like he's in line with the big mean Mythic raiders because AP/AK has to exist without caps. I get that Mythic raiders represent a small portion of the community but the lack of empathy people on this forum have for them is kind of repulsive.
    First, your value as a raider, as you call it, is your own. You want to measure against others? Again, your choice.

    You complain about the lack of empathy for raiders? Have you read your own post and the language you used?

  13. #253
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Dracula View Post
    Myself personally, I love Personal loot. But I understand your point and why others wouldn't. But I guess that is why Masterloot was kept for guilds that disliked it.
    yes and unless they ENFORCE personal loot, they cant stop split runs, and the issue with that, is that would cause alot of people to quit, because then you might aswell join pugs, if you artn gunna be able to gear the raid, and its purly random who gets loot, and if a boss will give 4 peices of gear that are perfectly placed, or if a boss gives 4 peices of loot to no one who can use them

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight White Whale View Post
    And I really have no love for people who pursue the world first race anyway to be honest. But Blizzard is still making the game, and they know what people will be required to do in order to compete in the world first race. Guilds are just doing whatever they have to do in the system that Blizzard created.
    its cool to cheer them on, as they show dedication and massive amount of skill, but the issue is the game should not be made around them

    and holy fucking shit i hate that im agreeing with you >#<
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
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  14. #254
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arr0gance View Post
    Leave WQs in the game. Remove AP/AK. Tie player power to gear alone.

    Also, where the fuck do you think you get off telling me how I get to play this game? I understand the nature of competitive raiding but I also want to have a life outside of raiding and I dislike that my value as a raider is measured by how many Mythic Maw of Soul runs I can handle before gouging my eyeballs out. But that's too much to ask, apparently. Jimmy McCasualfaggot has to feel like he's in line with the big mean Mythic raiders because AP/AK has to exist without caps. I get that Mythic raiders represent a small portion of the community but the lack of empathy people on this forum have for them is kind of repulsive.
    A remarkable post that is 100% not self-aware. I'm not going to tell you how you get to play the game. Your plea for empathy after tossing out random insults is ridiculous.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  15. #255
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokerfiend View Post
    Then why is there an achievement for it?
    because they have to or else that part of the community would completly die off, they dont condone it, but they still have to support it... those peoples jobs are to play wow bassicly
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  16. #256
    Deleted
    To everybody claiming it's blizzard fault :

    - Who force thoses guild to rush 80h/week ? Blizz or themselves ?
    - Who force them to split raid ? Blizz or themselves ?
    - Who force them to be mythic ready THE DAY of opening ? (and I don't mean skorpyron ready, but end boss)
    - Will players with currently less than 54pts clean nighthold before 7.2 ?
    - Then why don't they burn like the others ?

    It's a fucking game with evolution over time. Blizz put content. Everybody can see it, but nobody is forced by the game/develloper to clean it in the first two weeks. Your choice to do so, it's okay but don't blame anyone but yourself.

    And by the way 2/3mm+ a week, EN back then or nighthold today with an heroic clean each week, 2/3 treasure cache a week and i'm 51. So please stop claiming that 54 is a nolife things. I have less than 11 days /played at 110

  17. #257
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    its cool to cheer them on, as they show dedication and massive amount of skill, but the issue is the game should not be made around them

    and holy fucking shit i hate that im agreeing with you >#<
    I wouldn't even cheer them on and I don't think the game should be made around them, exactly the opposite.

    But you can't be competitive and half-ass it.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanaku View Post
    This is the kind of post that I feel is so misleading. The problem isnt that top end raiders put a lot of time in the game and burnout. They have been doing that for many expansions with litte complaints. Like you said, they choose to maintain 5 alts or whatever (Exorsus only had to maintain 2 characters btw). The problem is, that it is such a chore to just spam Mythic+ to no end. That isn't fun no matter how you slice it. THAT is not on the guild leaders. Basically, they could maintain their hardcore gameplay before, but with the current system in place for Artifact Power, it has caused burnout in order to remain competitive.

    Certainly there is something to say about choosing to be competitive. But you cant put that blame on players, because of design choices.
    I feel like people only read a small part of the original quote and jumped straight to blaming mythic raiders, while ignoring everything else.

    The issue is that Ion also mentioned multiple mistakes with their designs in Legion. We know that Artifact Power acquisition is getting changed in 7.2, with M+ spam becoming less lucrative. We know bad luck protection for Legendaries is getting changed in 7.2, to make it easier gearing offspecs. We know Paragon traits are being changed in 7.2, so there's less incentive to grind them. There have been multiple changes already in 7.1 and 7.1.5, so it's not something that we only just learned.

    Legion is not perfect and some of the changes have negatively affected Mythic raiding. It is possible to fix that without making it worse for "casuals". But plenty of people just don't care and simply want to point fingers at "them no life neckbeards", while claiming their way of playing is so much superior. World First players honestly don't give a damn if "casual" is getting some decent gear from LFR or has tons of World Quests to "progress" with. There's other issues.

    I mean, fuck - would "casual" player quit the game if he had a more reasonable chance of getting a Legendary item in their offspec? That's what's coming in 7.2, so either there's a mass exodus coming or - shock and horror - some of Mythic raiders complaints are actually valid and it's not all just their own fault.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by jasontheking1234 View Post
    Doesn't matter/ We'll still have fun, unlike you....
    Well not everyone can be a failure who enjoys wasting hundreds of pulls while waiting for daddy shitzard to nerf the encounters.

  20. #260
    I don't know if this has been said in this thread, but this clip is taken partially out of context. This is the end of a much larger statement that he maid during the livestream. He was asked about the top guilds quitting because of the AP grind. He basically said that they (Blizzard) shouldn't have made it so lucrative to spam M+ to cap out the artifact and added (in a response to the idea of not having the AP grind at all) that they can't design their game based on what the top guilds may do. Ultimately, it is their decision to play 16 hour a day, do 6 split runs and farm MoS to cap out AP.

    He didn't just blame everything on the top guilds and acted as if there was no fault on Blizzard's end.

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