Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Armourboy]

Here's the problem: You can have a mythic guild which doesn't enforce farming of some shit. We don't require alts, or split runs, or 54 traits in your weapons. We don't even require you to do your weekly m+15, let alone farm m+.

We raid 11 hours a week, and are 4/10M. And I'm okay with that progression, but as a raid leader, I've had to tell the people who only have that 11 hours a week to play that they're not good enough as the people who simply put in more time. We sat people because they were in the low 40s for traits, on bosses. And they're understandably upset because in previous expansions, you didn't need so much out-of-raid time to "keep up" with the rest of the raid. In fact, it's not since the days of farming consumables and resist gear (when people at the high end were easily doing 20+ hours just INSIDE the raid) that you've had such an out-of-raid "requirement." So for that "casual Mythic" raider that a) only likes the raiding aspect of the game, and b) doesn't have the time/want to spend the time outside of raid, they kind of get fucked.

And yes, I know, as a raid leader, I can still take these people with 40-42 traits. But then the people who have 54 traits get pissed because there's this perception that 1) players putting in less effort are getting rewarded in spite of it, and 2) these people are holding the raid back.

These are all conversations I've had with our other officers and various raiders this expansion.
-----------------------------------------
And the thing is, it could soooooooooooo easily be solved with a weekly AP cap. There was a VP cap, why isn't there an AP cap? Make it high, for all I care. Make it out of reach of the "casual" (in terms of ability to do content) player, but something progression raiders can attain. Make it 15-18m a week. I get about 1.5 a day from WQs, so that's 10.5m a week, and 10 bosses in Nighthold on normal/heroic drop about 1.5m on each difficulty, that's 13.5m. Then you only need to get 1.5m to 4.5m from m+ and M-NH and old raids/LFR, which is like, totally doable. And then, the RNG of world quests will make it so that some weeks you have to run less content like m+ etc. Or old raids/LFR, which don't give guaranteed AP drops, but one week you get really good RNG and, grats, now you only need 5 M+ between 10-15, instead of 8.

And then, it would be infinitely easier to tune these raid encounters. Because you would know, exactly, what the max player could, and would be at. It's mind-bogglingly easy. With this new paragon trait, you'll always feel behind the proverbial 8-ball if you're not constantly running M+ to get that extra AP that can help your raid out.

I just don't understand it.

- - - Updated - - -



And I have never, not once, bitched about gating in end-game content. I don't know any serious mythic raider who has. The main complaint from endgame raiders has been long end-expansion tiers.

They have actually covered this topic before. The reason they haven't added a cap is because they don't like the end result. People get on, grind it out in a day and then don't log in the rest of the week except to raid. They want people to play, obviously not 80 hours a week, but they want you to be engaged for more than one day outside of your raid days. Its intended to be content that last for a while, and frankly I think the reason things are tuned at 54 traits isn't because that was the intent but rather that is what most mythic guilds were at and to keep things from being undertuned they didn't have much choice.

[ls-]

And the thing is, it could soooooooooooo easily be solved with a weekly AP cap. There was a VP cap, why isn't there an AP cap? Make it high, for all I care. Make it out of reach of the "casual" (in terms of ability to do content) player, but something progression raiders can attain. Make it 15-18m a week. I get about 1.5 a day from WQs, so that's 10.5m a week, and 10 bosses in Nighthold on normal/heroic drop about 1.5m on each difficulty, that's 13.5m. Then you only need to get 1.5m to 4.5m from m+ and M-NH and old raids/LFR, which is like, totally doable. And then, the RNG of world quests will make it so that some weeks you have to run less content like m+ etc. Or old raids/LFR, which don't give guaranteed AP drops, but one week you get really good RNG and, grats, now you only need 5 M+ between 10-15, instead of 8.

And then, it would be infinitely easier to tune these raid encounters. Because you would know, exactly, what the max player could, and would be at. It's mind-bogglingly easy. With this new paragon trait, you'll always feel behind the proverbial 8-ball if you're not constantly running M+ to get that extra AP that can help your raid out.

I just don't understand it.

Because it's almost universally hated back in the day? During WotLK forums were filled w/ threads about JP/VP and how capping them was retarded af. Raiders were happy, cuz they didn't need to dungs, we just needed to log in during raid night. But casuals weren't happy at all, cuz they either felt that they didn't do enough if they didn't hit the cap that week, or that they couldn't do anything cuz they hit the cap that week.

Caps on content that's available to entire playerbase favour hardcore crowd more than anyone else, thus they hurt the game

[Rafoel]

We raid 11 hours a week, and are 4/10M. And I'm okay with that progression, but as a raid leader, I've had to tell the people who only have that 11 hours a week to play that they're not good enough as the people who simply put in more time. We sat people because they were in the low 40s for traits, on bosses. And they're understandably upset because in previous expansions, you didn't need so much out-of-raid time to "keep up" with the rest of the raid. In fact, it's not since the days of farming consumables and resist gear (when people at the high end were easily doing 20+ hours just INSIDE the raid) that you've had such an out-of-raid "requirement." So for that "casual Mythic" raider that a) only likes the raiding aspect of the game, and b) doesn't have the time/want to spend the time outside of raid, they kind of get fucked.

And yes, I know, as a raid leader, I can still take these people with 40-42 traits. But then the people who have 54 traits get pissed because there's this perception that 1) players putting in less effort are getting rewarded in spite of it, and 2) these people are holding the raid back.

It seems you have too many active raiders in guild? How many people you actually have to bench every raid? Since Vanilla was released people with better gear. and now traits too, had "priority" for being picked for progress, and nobody had problems with that.




As for Blizzard... good, good. Since around 2 months I've been writing on these forums that Blizzard is intentionally putting stress on top raiding guilds so that the unrealisitic and retarded requirement of maintaining 5+ characters only to progress with 1 gets removed. Now Blizzard confirmed that.

[psyquest]

Been playing this game for 12 years.

I see new kids come along and go " we recruiting for top server bla bla, requirement 3 rerolls mastered for split raids etc"

those kind of guilds quickly fold and the amount of things required to do is so huge these guys set themselves for failure right of the bat.

Definetely not blizzard fault. These idiots choose to play the game like crazy, their burn out is their own doing.

[Polybius]

It's true.

And no. Nighthold isn't tuned for 54 traits. Players racing for Mythic on the first week are not representative of the natural curve set for raiders. They lack the pieces from Heroic raiding -- it's common sense that Mythic will hurt more without the proper gear/stats.

[Deleted]

I just don't understand it.

And I don't understand why Blizzard should be constantly catering for the Mythic raiding community. You guys are not that many.
Why should they cap AP? My guild has lot of players who don't raid (past LFR) and they're at/close to 54, while some of our raiders are nowhere near that.
We don't raid mythic, none of this is a problem for us, AP is just something "that happens" when you play the game. None of us cares. I'd imagine the majority of the playerbase is rather nonplussed about the "grind" (What grind? is probably their answer)

I'm not sure why the mythic 5%-ers should deserve their own rules and special treatment - yet again, just because you deliberately have nurtured a polarized peer-pressure culture without any nuance (high performers are praised to skies, rest are 'baddies'). You already have your own raid difficulty, with your own specific mechanics and extra rewards. But no, you guys are just never happy, Blizzard needs to bend over backwards to change things every time some little detail doesn't please you.

I think you should probably have a bit more holistic view into the game and its diverse playerbase instead of living in your mythic 5% echo chamber. It might be good for you.

[Yunaqt]

I don't see how getting 54 is hard, unless someone burnt themselves out getting 54 before reaching AK25 because, reasons?
It's taken little over a month for me to get a resto druids weapon from 1 - 51 almost 52 by playing a few hours a day and raiding...After EN did people forget how prog worked? "Hello boss, oh not enough damage? gg next week get another round of gear" and start becoming easier to push.
Anyone remember any recent bosses that took awhile to fall over? Butcher (DPS Check perspective) Gorefiend 200+ attempts for some guilds lol.

And wtf people talking about the power creep on gear is lower than previous expansions? We're in the first tier of the expansion and already DPS from EN vs NH is like 3 tiers ahead, at like end game levels...
I have a 96% parse just quickly glancing at my destro lock doing 336k on Nythendra Mythic. That's disgustingly low levels of DPS now, quickly looking at WCL you have Resto Druids doing more DPS.

[eschatological]

They have actually covered this topic before. The reason they haven't added a cap is because they don't like the end result. People get on, grind it out in a day and then don't log in the rest of the week except to raid. They want people to play, obviously not 80 hours a week, but they want you to be engaged for more than one day outside of your raid days. Its intended to be content that last for a while, and frankly I think the reason things are tuned at 54 traits isn't because that was the intent but rather that is what most mythic guilds were at and to keep things from being undertuned they didn't have much choice.

Easy. Don't make it grindable in a day. You can't do a 15m cap in a day. I actually didn't mind the MoP dailies, because it meant my raiders were on every day, and their collective bitching about dailies was kind of a raid cohesion mechanic. But if you're going to make M-Gul'dan a fight you need 54 traits in just to survive his raid wide AoEs, then you have to accept some of the responsibility for raid leaders like me who are pushing their raiders to get that grind on.

Because it's almost universally hated back in the day? During WotLK forums were filled w/ threads about JP/VP and how capping them was retarded af. Raiders were happy, cuz they didn't need to dungs, we just needed to log in during raid night. But casuals weren't happy at all, cuz they either felt that they didn't do enough if they didn't hit the cap that week, or that they couldn't do anything cuz they hit the cap that week.

Caps on content that's available to entire playerbase favour hardcore crowd more than anyone else, thus they hurt the game

If they're casual players, why do they need to hit the cap? Their progression isn't stopped, the feeling of always having something to work towards isn't halted. There's just this impression that there's something they "have to" do when they don't have to, for the content they're doing. And then, the "casual" player who DOES manage to get that cap every week is helping out his normal/heroic guild even moreso, and can help carry the raid a bit more.

It seems you have too many active raiders in guild? How many people you actually have to bench every raid? Since Vanilla was released people with better gear. and now traits too, had "priority" for being picked for progress, and nobody had problems with that.




As for Blizzard... good, good. Since around 2 months I've been writing on these forums that Blizzard is intentionally putting stress on top raiding guilds so that the unrealisitic and retarded requirement of maintaining 5+ characters only to progress with 1 gets removed. Now Blizzard confirmed that.

We have a bench of about 5. But we've also gone through about 12 raiders this expansion (for a 20 person raid), all of whom have quit from the grind or the RNG clown fiesta which is the legendary system. I wasn't the GM/raid leader of my guild at the beginning of this expansion. Both of them quit, because they didn't want to do the grind, but they also didn't want to hold back the team.

And lastly, as I said previously - I'm not running a guild that requires 5 characters or split raids. We run one raid a week, and that's all that's required. The point is the level of commitment needed for an 11 hour a week raid that wants to be competitive-ish in mythic without busting balls still requires about 2 hours a day outside of raid, at least, or about 14 hours a week on top of raid, effectively doubling their time commitment.

[Estherna]

Blizzard designs its contents for them to last a certain set a time. Give or take 6 months for raids. The way the game is mean to be played is that you will progress through the content all along those 6 months and be able to clear the highest difficulties after 3 or 4 months.

If some people want to binge 3 months of content in 2 weeks, that's their problem. Legendaries, Titanforged and all those things aren't mean to be mandatory assets that you have to get to clean the content. It sure does help. But it's a bonus, something to keep you playing and hoping to have a slighty better item to ease things out. That's soft nerfing.

It comes as simple as that: to play the game as it is intended to be played, you haven't have to grind MoS during days and try to have your BiS at the release. You just do 2 or 3 raids/week, do some mythic and do your WQs, and in the end, you may be able to clean the last boss in Mythic, or at least should have all the stuff and AP you need to do it.

Those requirements are there to insure that the content isn't completed in 2 weeks by everyone and their grandmother.

[Rogalicus]

AP is just something "that happens" when you play the game. None of us cares. I'd imagine the majority of the playerbase is rather nonplussed about the "grind" (What grind? is probably their answer)

Then why would you care about cap?

[Fleuria]

It's true.

And no. Nighthold isn't tuned for 54 traits. Players racing for Mythic on the first week are not representative of the natural curve set for raiders. They lack the pieces from Heroic raiding -- it's common sense that Mythic will hurt more without the proper gear/stats.

Watcher confirmed the raid was entirely tuned around 54 traits.

If you want to progress at a semi reasonable level, you have to be at 54 traits. I mean sure if you wanna be 4-6/10 after 3 months then the raid isn't tuned around 54 however if you do not want to be it is and if you are saying that they should just cut back and not care then the playerbase of raiding will just dramatically crash as no one wants to be stuck on a non end tier boss for more than a week max.

[eschatological]

It's true.

And no. Nighthold isn't tuned for 54 traits. Players racing for Mythic on the first week are not representative of the natural curve set for raiders. They lack the pieces from Heroic raiding -- it's common sense that Mythic will hurt more without the proper gear/stats.

There are simply some mechanics you cannot survive in M-NH without the stamina provided by high traits. We had a hunter in our M-Krosus attempts with about 45 traits who would get killed by the adds on Krosus pretty easily, whereas everyone else could take a cast to the face. It required us to not let them get ANY casts off for him to survive, or be really lucky and hope they didn't aim a Felburst at his face. That's the 4th boss people do in this instance.

On Spellblade, the boss people are generally doing 5th, a pyroblast from a fiery elemental hits for 2.8m. At 54 traits, I have a little under 3.3m. I get hit by one, I survive, with a little leeway. This hunter gets hit by one, and he's down to about 250k, and one more bad thing happens, and he's fucked. And there's a ton of bad things happening on Spellblade. He's probably used all his mitigation from soaking marks of frost in the first phase. So you play perfectly with less than 54 traits and have 6 adds simultaneously stunned/interrupted and never getting a cast off over around 30s, then you can kill it. In all the logs I've seen of this fight, though, I don't think I've ever seen a log where pyroblasts didn't go off. The fight is tuned for you not having perfect coordination, which is what it should be, since it's the 5th boss in the instance, except that tuning comes at max traits.

[DarthMonk79]

"We shouldn't design our game around people playing it 80 hours a week."

>Releases content tuned for people with 54 Artifact traits

Fuck off, Blizzard.

What content is tuned for 54+ traits? I've cleared Normal NH and guild is done some Heroic. Don't think anybody in our entire guild has 54 traits in their artifacts. Once again Blizzard stated at Blizz-con that the weapons would take all expansion to max out. They would constantly progress and never at any point did they say you "must" have a maxed out artifact to stand a chance. That was people in the community.... why? Probably because they think it is easier if artifact is maxed out, then turn around and complain that when/if they do have it maxed out that the content is "too easy". I've watched Blizzcon for Legion a few times and never was it stated that you "must" have 54 traits in artifact, that all the bosses were tuned around 54 traits.

[Battlebeard]

I hate most parts of Legion with all of my heart

BUT current raid progression system has NEVER been better. This allows guilds to be as hardcore as they want. If a guild demand 54 traits for multiple specs or even classes, it will allow them to progress faster. We have more FREEDOM with this current system to be as hardcore as we want!

And burnout? This is a GAME no one force you to join those hardcore guilds. It's YOUR CHOICE!

[ls-]

If they're casual players, why do they need to hit the cap? Their progression isn't stopped, the feeling of always having something to work towards isn't halted. There's just this impression that there's something they "have to" do when they don't have to, for the content they're doing. And then, the "casual" player who DOES manage to get that cap every week is helping out his normal/heroic guild even moreso, and can help carry the raid a bit more.

Why? Just because there's a weekly cap, that's it. That's the problem w/ caps, when we had daily cap of 25/day, many players felt that they needed to complete all 25. Hardcore crowd didn't care about them, dailies didn't impact us at all, but dailies were a content for entire playerbase, they're available to everyone, for many people it's the only accessible way to earn gold, earn reputation rewards, etc. If a casual player couldn't hit the cap for some reason he felt bad, cuz he could've done better, if he hit the cap, he felt that he wanted to do more, but simply couldn't.

When there were no caps on daily quests, MoP, both groups of players I mentioned above were satisfied: first group could do as little as they wanted, and they didn't feel bad about it cuz there's no indicator to remind them that they "underperformed", another group could farm as much as they wanted. However, that's the time when hardcore crowd felt they (I say "they", cuz I quit hardcore raiding by that time) were forced to farm ALL available daily quests otherwise they were losing gold, they couldn't get rewards that were locked behind reputations, for instance, enchant recipes.

Fucking over majority of playerbase to protect hardcore players from themselves isn't a smart move. Hardcoreness in WoW is self-imposed, you either accept it and everything that comes w/ it, or quit being hardcore, or quit the game entirely and move on. That's what I did after FL in Cata, I quit being a hardcore raider.

[KaPe]

Then why would you care about cap?

Because it's amazingly convenient way of thinking. On the one hand, they claim that Artifact Power is extremely easy to get - they only do couple quests every day, a dungeon or two a week and are almost done. On the other, they would instantly reach that weekly cap, no matter how high it would be. And of course, mythic raiders would be the one to blame for this.

I don't even like the idea of cap and think it could be done in other ways, but this is just a hypocritical argument. They "don't care", expect when something changes in a way it shouldn't affect them, it's suddenly bad.

What content is tuned for 54+ traits? I've cleared Normal NH and guild is done some Heroic. Don't think anybody in our entire guild has 54 traits in their artifacts(...)

... The very title of this thread mentions Mythic. Whether you agree with Ion's statement or not, it seems rather obvious he's talking about the highest difficulty - and yet here you are, "bragging" that you didn't need 54 to do "some Heroic".

Fucking over majority of playerbase to protect hardcore players from themselves isn't a smart move. Hardcoreness in WoW is self-imposed, you either accept it and everything that comes w/ it, or quit being hardcore, or quit the game entirely and move on. That's what I did after FL in Cata, I quit being a hardcore raider.

So who's getting "fucked over" in 7.2? Because, you know, some things are getting changed and some of them seemed to be mentioned by Mythic raiders. So either their arguments made sense or Blizzard is going to "fuck over the majority of playerbase to protect hardcore players" in the next few months. You'd have to be delusional to believe it's the latter - or just hate mythic raiders and believe they are to blame for all the problems in the game. Or both.

[Deleted]

I don't see how getting 54 is hard, unless someone burnt themselves out getting 54 before reaching AK25 because, reasons?
It's taken little over a month for me to get a resto druids weapon from 1 - 51 almost 52 by playing a few hours a day and raiding...After EN did people forget how prog worked? "Hello boss, oh not enough damage? gg next week get another round of gear" and start becoming easier to push.

It took you month to get to 51 traits on one weapon. Now do the same for 4 characters at same time for potentially 3 dps specs, just to do split raids.
Oh and you better get lucky titanforges from M 15+ because your alts BiS comes from there.

See the point?

[Rafoel]

And lastly, as I said previously - I'm not running a guild that requires 5 characters or split raids. We run one raid a week, and that's all that's required. The point is the level of commitment needed for an 11 hour a week raid that wants to be competitive-ish in mythic without busting balls still requires about 2 hours a day outside of raid, at least, or about 14 hours a week on top of raid, effectively doubling their time commitment.

2 hours a day in order to prepare your character to compete on high level seems completely normal to me.

[Deleted]

You mean that one that only exists in your head ?

The moment that people talk about "being forced", "being burnout", in the context of a videogame, i think the problem does exist out of my mind.
I would like to know how would these people cope with burnouts in real life, where you are "truly" forced a lot of times, and you can not simply log out.

[ls-]

just hate mythic raiders and believe they are to blame for all the problems in the game

I don't really care about hardcore scene anymore. I still have friends who raid in guilds that are on the first page of wowprogress, they just do what needs to be done, they're nice people to talk to and to play with, however, I really dislike tryhards and hardcore wannabes, but that's a story for another day

So who's getting "fucked over" in 7.2? Because, you know, some things are getting changed and some of them seemed to be mentioned by Mythic raiders. So either their arguments made sense or Blizzard is going to "fuck over the majority of playerbase to protect hardcore players" in the next few months. You'd have to be delusional to believe it's the latter

We are talking about AP now, changes to AP system in 7.2 favour less hardcore and casual players waaaaay more than anyone else I'm testing a lot of stuff on PTR, well, mostly due to addon development, but I do a lot of questing and other things. There's literally nothing that makes me feel miserable about being a filthy casual

As I said in another thread, someone will ALWAYS suffer, it's impossible to design character power progression mechanism that will satisfy ALL types of players, so it's logical to let minority suffer