Sexy or Abusive? (Ageism and Lap Dances)

[Bushtuckrman]

Wonder who called the police on her. I've known enough chicks in the aged care industry to know what goes in in nursing homes! I remember a mate I used to have had a mental dilemma on whether or not he considered his gf at the time to be cheating cos she used to give hand jobs to some of the old guys when they desperately needed some 'relief' lmao. Apparently its an actual thing in nursing homes and I hope my son puts me in a nursing home when I'm at that age!

[Super Kami Dende]

It's a Lapdance. The dude didn't stop her because he obviously didn't care.

Wtf has happened to this pussified society where it seems the only people in the situation not outraged is the dude getting the lapdance and the chick doing it.

STOP BEING OUTRAGED FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

[Fahrenheit]

I personally don't have an issue so long as it was consensual, but even so I think she should be fired. If I whipped my cock out at a woman I was dating at work and someone saw me do it. I'd expect to be canned too.

[zorillo]

It's the dementia that is the crux of the matter, while I'm going to be honest and say I'm too lazy to dig into the story any so bear that in mind. If he has sufficiently diminished capacity that he could not legally consent. As a caretaker, the State will hold that she had a reasonable knowledge, or however the statute they are charging under words it, and therefore can be held culpable. If he were to just wonder into a titty bar, and wave a $50 and ask for a lap dance, there probably wouldn't be any problem for the lady there.

[shadowmouse]

Sexual abuse is performing any sexual act against the will of another person.

The catch is, go back and read that law. Are you comfortable with a law that is written in such a way that it criminalizes behavior based on the victim's physical condition, mental condition, OR age? I'm not, the first two points should have it covered. This law is written in such a way that at some unspecified point I am "old enough that they couldn’t resist or consent". Wait, what? At least with minors we have fairly clear ages. By this law, when am I so old that my age is seen as making me unable to consent?

As a side note, it is nice to think that elder care comes from loving families who want full time care for someone that they can't take care of themselves. Sometimes it does. Sometimes, someone reaches an advanced age and they get shunted into care while family assume control of their assets. It doesn't get much attention, but getting old can be rough in many different ways: http://elder.findlaw.com/elder-abuse...der-abuse.html

[Sunseeker]

The catch is, go back and read that law. Are you comfortable with a law that is written in such a way that it criminalizes behavior based on the victim's physical condition, mental condition, OR age?

Yes. Yes. And yes.

Because that's pretty much the basis for any law anywhere working ever.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

The catch is, go back and read that law. Are you comfortable with a law that is written in such a way that it criminalizes behavior based on the victim's physical condition, mental condition, OR age?

Tell you what...find an example where the only factor was the victim's advanced age and we can discuss that. As far as this case is concerned though...the man has dementia, the caregiver would know that, and the whole thing was filmed. Other than the frat boy "I hope that happens to me when I'm 100" mentality...there really is no defense for her here.

[shadowmouse]

Tell you what...find an example where the only factor was the victim's advanced age

I believe that you need to take that up with the state of Ohio. They're the ones who've written a law providing ... let me repeat it ...

The other person or one of the other people has a mental or physical condition or is old enough that they couldn’t resist or consent

By their own language, age is separate from mental or physical condition. Their words.

the man has dementia, the caregiver would know that

As far as the article goes, the caregiver hasn't gone on record about his health. Investigators say he has dementia. We don't know what form he might have, where it falls on the spectrum, how it is treated, or how it manifests. For that matter, we don't know why he is in the facility. I'm not sure what you think "he has dementia" means, it does not necessarily mean the person is without legal competence: http://issues.flemingandcurti.com/20...gal-documents/ The law, as it is written, requires the person -- by physical condition, mental condition, or (the point that bothers me) unspecified age to be unable ("couldn't) to consent. Dementia is not conclusive on that point.

Because that's pretty much the basis for any law anywhere working ever.

Um, no, it isn't.

This law is written to criminalize behavior based on age; however, in contrast to something like statutory rape there is absolutely no standard other than "old enough".

You're too old to write an informed reply, or at least according to the way this law is written you might be too old to be legally competent. We don't really know, because we don't know what age that is. Now, if you were a minor, we'd know the relevant age.

This is a problem because there is no clear guideline for how old is too old to form consent, and if I'm too old to consent to a lap dance, how does that reflect on other questions of legal capacity? Let's say he is in care because he has brittle bones. Yeah, he has trouble remembering a few things, but he's there because of brittle bones (hypothetically). She gets convicted. An element of that offense is that he couldn't form consent, he lacked capacity. Again, speaking as a hypothetical, can someone later challenge his will and say that as a matter of law he has already been shown legally incompetent?

[Tijuana]

Once again, not enough coffee and life has made my brain hurt.


Source: https://www.yahoo.com/news/caretaker...140112853.html

As an additional note, here's some information about the offense that was charged:

http://www.columbuscriminalattorney....al-imposition/

On one hand, we sometimes hear some pretty shocking things about how the elderly get treated in such facilities. I can see how taking a video of this kind of thing could be a way to make fun of someone with dementia -- a kind of "look at me I'm 26 and this geezer is 100 -- and that's inappropriate.

On the other hand, while I'm not to 100 yet, I'm past the halfway point and edging up on 60%. That being the case, I have a bit of a WTF moment contemplating the idea that at some point I'm going to be considered too old to think for myself without proof of any loss of cognitive function. Hey! We've got folks on the Supreme Court who are closer to 100 than I am. Grainy booking photos aren't flattering, but I'd like to think that if I should reach 100 they'll be able to say of me: "The man knew exactly what was going on and had no problem whatsoever with it".

So, what are your thoughts on the incident? Most of you are even further from 100 than I am, but what do you think about ageism? You're probably going to live even longer. Are you ready to be told one day that you're so old that you can't consent to something like a lap dance?

I can't make a decision about this, since the news article doesn't show dat ass.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I believe that you need to take that up with the state of Ohio. They're the ones who've written a law providing ... let me repeat it ...


By their own language, age is separate from mental or physical condition. Their words.



As far as the article goes, the caregiver hasn't gone on record about his health. Investigators say he has dementia. We don't know what form he might have, where it falls on the spectrum, how it is treated, or how it manifests. For that matter, we don't know why he is in the facility. I'm not sure what you think "he has dementia" means, it does not necessarily mean the person is without legal competence: http://issues.flemingandcurti.com/20...gal-documents/ The law, as it is written, requires the person -- by physical condition, mental condition, or (the point that bothers me) unspecified age to be unable ("couldn't) to consent. Dementia is not conclusive on that point.

Again, show me a case where the only factor was the age of the victim and we can talk about that. As far as this case is concerned...the authorities seem to be proceeding on the belief the man's dementia is significant enough to warrant charges.

I know there is a range to dementia. My grandmother had it before she passed and sometimes she would seem pretty lucid...and other times she would mistake me for my grandfather who died before I was born...and she could switch between those two states right in front of my eyes. I know some people only get affected by it rarely and others are in a near permanent state of confusion.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The only question here is if she was hot and he was a prude. If the answer is yes and no then that old fuck probably had the best 5 minutes of his last 30-40 years, too bad he can't remember it anymore. If it was my father I'd write him a card to congratulate him.

That being said, as the manager of the facility I'd air her ass and send it back to the job market. Doesn't exactly speak for a persons ability to make sound judgements.

Edit: The snippet is a bit unclear. Did she film it as a prank to show it to other people? If that is the case then that is a different story, as it was ment to humiliate the guy and create laughs on his expense.

[shadowmouse]

show me a case where the only factor was the age of the victim and we can talk about that.

I am. You're dodging. I'm showing you a law that says at an undetermined age, purely because of age, a person is not legally competent. That's the "case" I'm discussing, a situation in law that presumes age alone (physical and mental conditions are separate reasons aside from age) makes someone unable to consent. If you can't address that, have a nice day.

As ageism goes, look at this thread, we have an adult diapers quip, an oblique assumption that he should be wheeled anywhere, "that old fuck". It is ingrained and unthinking, but there is a presumption that at some point once competent adults necessarily revert to being awkward children. Look in the mirror. Some day you may be that old fuck. Are you going to shuffle peacefully towards Meals on Wheels and assisted living? I'd rather be this guy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b08f96c18250ed and I'd like the state of our laws to recognize that.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I am. You're dodging. I'm showing you a law that says at an undetermined age, purely because of age, a person is not legally competent. That's the "case" I'm discussing, a situation in law that presumes age alone (physical and mental conditions are separate reasons aside from age) makes someone unable to consent. If you can't address that, have a nice day.

I'm not dodging anything. You are. I'm asking you to show me a case where the victim does not have any physical or mental disabilities and his age was the only factor. Not the law...an actual case where charges were laid simply because the victim was too old.

As ageism goes, look at this thread, we have an adult diapers quip, an oblique assumption that he should be wheeled anywhere, "that old fuck". It is ingrained and unthinking, but there is a presumption that at some point once competent adults necessarily revert to being awkward children. Look in the mirror. Some day you may be that old fuck. Are you going to shuffle peacefully towards Meals on Wheels and assisted living? I'd rather be this guy: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b08f96c18250ed and I'd like the state of our laws to recognize that.

I'm not denying ageism exists...I'm saying you haven't proved that ageism is a factor in this case.
Also, for every "adult diaper" quip...there are 3 people making the "I hope that happens to me when i'm his age" comment.

[shadowmouse]

I'm not dodging anything.

Then you don't get it, perhaps the problem is a matter of training. I'm retired from practice, but I care about the state of the law as a whole. Yes or no, does this law cite a person's physical ability, mental ability, and age as separate factors -- each of which may result in the person being able to consent?

If the answer is yes, and if you read it clearly that is the answer you must reach, Ohio is writing laws that assume a person ceases to be legally competent based on age because physical and mental issues would be addressed under those respective points.

I'm not denying ageism exists...I'm saying you haven't proved that ageism is a factor in this case.

Good grief, go back and read the plain English of the questions that I wrote at the end of the OP.

So, what are your thoughts on the incident? Most of you are even further from 100 than I am, but what do you think about ageism? You're probably going to live even longer. Are you ready to be told one day that you're so old that you can't consent to something like a lap dance?

Notice. First question is "what are your thoughts on the incident?" Bungee then realizes that many people on the forum are close to half his age and old age probably isn't really on their radar! I then write a separate question: "what do you think about ageism"

Two separate questions, the incident that brings an otherwise obscure state law across my screen causes me to ask what people think about that incident. Then, the part where life whacks me with something while I'm still a liter or so short on coffee comes when I check to see what the law is that she is being charged under. What the hell? Age is a separate factor -- appearing to mean that mental capacity need not be shown to be diminished (presumably physical ability is listed to address ability to resist -- for ability to consent?

Also, for every "adult diaper" quip...there are 3 people making the "I hope that happens to me when i'm his age" comment.

Put four large roofing nails on a hardwood chair. Remove three. Drop your ass down on that chair and tell me if removing three made the remaining one less noticeable. Whataboutism in action. That there have been other comments doesn't mean the quips and assumptions weren't made.

[Deleted]

How am I supposed to have an opinion? I'm not the guys doctor, I don't know his cognitive state. Maybe he's gay, maybe she's doing it as a way to make fun of him, or maybe he loved every minute, I have absolutely no idea.

So yeah, to put myself in the place of an unknown 100 year old with dementia, it could be sexy or abusive, but either way it's unprofessional.

[shadowmouse]

@Felfury Well, just to make it more interesting for you, here's a follow up. Professionalism should exist at multiple levels and from time to time stories come out about abuse and neglect in such facilities. Was I the only person to wonder what the situation was where she could give him a lap dance, flashing her breasts and buttocks ... and none of her supervisors were aware of it until she showed one the video? I wonder what else goes on that they don't notice.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Then you don't get it, perhaps the problem is a matter of training. I'm retired from practice, but I care about the state of the law as a whole. Yes or no, does this law cite a person's physical ability, mental ability, and age as separate factors -- each of which may result in the person being able to consent?

If the answer is yes, and if you read it clearly that is the answer you must reach, Ohio is writing laws that assume a person ceases to be legally competent based on age because physical and mental issues would be addressed under those respective points.

And all I'm asking for is proof they actually enforce the "too old" part of the law.

"what are your thoughts on the incident?"

That the woman seems to have broken the law. She should be fired and put on trial. If found guilty she should be put on a sex crime registry along with whatever punishment is applicable. In either case she shouldn't be allowed any employment as a professional caregiver.

"what do you think about ageism"

I don't like it...but I don't see any evidence of in action here.

Put four large roofing nails on a hardwood chair. Remove three. Drop your ass down on that chair and tell me if removing three made the remaining one less noticeable. Whataboutism in action. That there have been other comments doesn't mean the quips and assumptions weren't made.

Again, I didn't deny ageism exists nor that it appears in this thread. I'm just pointing out that other assumptions were made more. The more troubling assumption in my opinion is that every time a male is sexually assaulted by a female the response from many of the male posters here is "NICE!".

- - - Updated - - -

@Felfury Was I the only person to wonder what the situation was where she could give him a lap dance, flashing her breasts and buttocks ... and none of her supervisors were aware of it until she showed one the video?

Well, I'm gonna take a wild guess that she didn't do it in the common room. Probably more like in the old man's room.

As far as the management is concerned it seems that as soon as it was brought to their attention both the woman and the person that filmed the lap dance (who showed it to the supervisor) were fired and the police were brought in.

[kamuimac]

Holy shit! Did the man even complain? A lap dance at 100 years old?! I'd be crying tears of joy.

truth be told this 100%

if i live up to a hundred every single sexy woman is more then welcome to do a lap dance for me preferably all day long

[shadowmouse]

And all I'm asking for is proof they actually enforce the "too old" part of the law.

Well, get cracking on it. One of us is not typing from behind the Great Firewall. Google may work for you, it doesn't here. Good luck, however, finding court records on those cases. For my part, the danger of a law is in the fact that it exists. In this case, it codifies the idea that age is a weakness. And yes, you just dodged a direct question, with underlined text.

That the woman seems to have broken the law.

Her counsel says otherwise.

As several have mentioned, her behavior, in particular shooting video of it, is unprofessional. I wonder why she is being charged for gross sexual imposition rather than something related to professionals standards and treatment of those under her care. Is it a dodge to protect the facility and its management?

but I don't see any evidence of in action here.

So going back to that question you dodged, the one with the underlined text, then what do you call a law that says a person is legally incompetent to consent based on an unspecified but advanced age? Me? I'd say "Bungee, you aren't mentally impaired to such a degree that you can't consent, you're just to damned old to consent" would seem to count. Can we show if the law has successfully prosecuted someone on such a lack of consent? It doesn't matter, the law is on the books and it is being used.

The more troubling assumption in my opinion is that every time a male is sexually assaulted by a female the response from many of the male posters here is "NICE!".

A reasonable point, but skipping the consent issue, do you feel that this is an issue of males being viewed as somehow lucky to get even abusive attention from women, or is it a case of people commenting based on aging? For my part, I take issue with the idea that aging is unavoidably going to turn me into an overgrown child, incapable of choosing what I like or do not like in my life. Should my life take a turn in that direction, as a side issue I'm also on the side of right to die -- I think Terry Pratchett is a case in point: https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...o-end-his-life

if i live up to a hundred every single sexy woman is more then welcome to do a lap dance for me preferably all day long

In fairness, osteoporosis ain't fun and death by snoo snoo could become an actual risk. Then again, centenarians have been known jump out of airplanes.

[Cuppy]

I really doubt someone who has lived a hundred years minds. I mean there are other things that might bother him a bit more.