Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[PowerOfTwo]

People talking about hours - through wotlk and Cata on the first progress weeks you will fucking raid 10 hours and play an extra 4-6 outside of raid times a day to optimize in whatever way you can.

Bullshit, please tell what the fuck a player progression on 0 lights had to progress on outside ulduar, Heroic dungeons?!

Just 600? (isn't it much more?)
And you think that is alot?
And MoS farming isn't the most efficient, it's just the most efficient if you sucked up all the other options which are on a cooldown/lockout.

600 at 300k Ap / run (at least +10) to get the 180M to paragon 3 weapons, for one character. And 25 DAYS of /played time spent FARMING mindless content is a little?!

[Rafoel]

Typical spin on Ion's part here. Missing the point that it NEVER took this much grinding in the past for world first guilds to stay relevant. It comes up in interviews with guilds like these quite often and the answer is allways the same "It's not that big of a comitment , realy, everyone is free to do whatever during farm, and most adults can schedual a week off work 2-3 times a year during progression". Because that was all that was needed in the past. you hit max level in a day, chain run Heroics for another day or two , pool the guilds gold into consumeable and BoE's and DONE, you've essentialy done your farming for that expansion. From that point on gear comes from farm / split runs wich, while taxing , as mentioned above are a week or two once or twice a year.

No, what you are talking about started in WotLK. In Vanilla, you were farming mats all day, cause you need potions, cause you needed consumables, cause you needed REPAIRS (and they were actually expensive) and raid itself was merely a culmination of all the effort you put into grinding during the whole week.

This is how WoW was supposed to be. Want be better - go play your main character more. Now it's rather - go level another alt.

[Flurryfang]

Ion is very right i would say. The players create their own expectations and their own hell. Nobody from Blizzard is saying that you should clear mythic with low item lvl and within a very short time. Nobody in Blizzard is forcing you to gain 1-2 artifact lvls each week just to be able to raid. While Elisande and Gul'dan is tuned for lvl 54 artifact, they are not tuned for you to be full mythic geared, which you could be with a month or more of mythic raiding. Its all about not pushing yourself to the extreme and just following the guide lines the game is giving you.

So yeah, guild leaders and most players are at their own fault of burnout. Blizzard is providing the content, but from what i hear, there is nothing wrong with the content, but about repeating it... Well, just stop repeating it. In the end of the day, you should play WoW in the way that makes you happy and in a way that you enjoy. If mythic raiding is bringing misery to people, then people should proberly quit or find another way to play the game.

[Rafoel]

TBF, people who are capable of getting WF don't complain that much.

I'd say that tryhards and hardcore wannabes are the ones who ruin it for everyone. The guys who are progress through Heroic NH, yet do splits in Normals, ask for 54 traits in artefact, etc. They don't need it, but they just do it cuz that's what guys from WF guilds are doing. The guys who are progressing through Normal and complain about being benched cuz of not having BIS legendaries and/or 54 traits in artefact. Also the guys from world #21314 guild who are crying about being FORCED to grind to stay competitive. These are the people who whine A LOT about everything that's somewhat related to raiding, these are the people who make hardcore scene look pathetic.

This. 100x this.

- - - Updated - - -

So yeah, guild leaders and most players are at their own fault of burnout. Blizzard is providing the content, but from what i hear, there is nothing wrong with the content, but about repeating it... Well, just stop repeating it. In the end of the day, you should play WoW in the way that makes you happy and in a way that you enjoy. If mythic raiding is bringing misery to people, then people should proberly quit or find another way to play the game.

It went like this:

1) Blizzard, we want content that stays relevant!

2) You do content once, its still relevant.
2b) You do it again, its still relevant.
2c) Its still relevant...
.
.
.
2xhg) Blizzard pls stahp, I don't have any more energy... (collapses in front of still relevant content)

This stupid mentality that you have to repeat something infinitely as long as it still gives you even slight advantage... deal with it, you won't be able to anymore.

[setsuna f seiei]

Ion is very right i would say. The players create their own expectations and their own hell. Nobody from Blizzard is saying that you should clear mythic with low item lvl and within a very short time. Nobody in Blizzard is forcing you to gain 1-2 artifact lvls each week just to be able to raid. While Elisande and Gul'dan is tuned for lvl 54 artifact, they are not tuned for you to be full mythic geared, which you could be with a month or more of mythic raiding. Its all about not pushing yourself to the extreme and just following the guide lines the game is giving you.

So yeah, guild leaders and most players are at their own fault of burnout. Blizzard is providing the content, but from what i hear, there is nothing wrong with the content, but about repeating it... Well, just stop repeating it. In the end of the day, you should play WoW in the way that makes you happy and in a way that you enjoy. If mythic raiding is bringing misery to people, then people should proberly quit or find another way to play the game.

This is the classic forum raider, as said many times before, it's the casuals in the top 50-2k guilds who throw blame on everything blizzard says. Blizzard never said "this content must be cleared in 1 week so go prepare" it's the top guilds who execute tasks that enable them to do it in as little time as possible. It is 100% the fault of the leader because they are the ones setting the requirement.

[PowerOfTwo]

No, what you are talking about started in WotLK. In Vanilla, you were farming mats all day, cause you need potions, cause you needed consumables, cause you needed REPAIRS (and they were actually expensive) and raid itself was merely a culmination of all the effort you put into grinding during the whole week.

This is how WoW was supposed to be. Want be better - go play your main character more. Now it's rather - go level another alt.

People allways bring this up, but one side is remembering it wrong i think, and i've gotten up to (tho not killed) C'thun in vanila. And the one thing i truly remember farming was elemental earth for Nature ress pots... beyond that, flasks, i even remember people paying our guild to use our BWL save so they could craft and sell their own flasks (you needed to be inside BWL to craft flasks at a table in there).

Ion is very right i would say. The players create their own expectations and their own hell. Nobody from Blizzard is saying that you should clear mythic with low item lvl and within a very short time. Nobody in Blizzard is forcing you to gain 1-2 artifact lvls each week just to be able to raid. While Elisande and Gul'dan is tuned for lvl 54 artifact, they are not tuned for you to be full mythic geared, which you could be with a month or more of mythic raiding. Its all about not pushing yourself to the extreme and just following the guide lines the game is giving you.

So yeah, guild leaders and most players are at their own fault of burnout. Blizzard is providing the content, but from what i hear, there is nothing wrong with the content, but about repeating it... Well, just stop repeating it. In the end of the day, you should play WoW in the way that makes you happy and in a way that you enjoy. If mythic raiding is bringing misery to people, then people should proberly quit or find another way to play the game.

This i aggree is actualy a problem, LFR heroic echo chambering other peoples complaints just drowns out the issue.

This is the classic forum raider, as said many times before, it's the casuals in the top 50-2k guilds who throw blame on everything blizzard says. Blizzard never said "this content must be cleared in 1 week so go prepare" it's the top guilds who execute tasks that enable them to do it in as little time as possible. It is 100% the fault of the leader because they are the ones setting the requirement.

Sure because every OTHER leader is doing the same thing, and people live of this kind of stuff (sponsorships and selling runs). Blizzard could have been helpfull here and just disable paragon points (and legendary's) during progress tho specificaly refused saying something along the lines of "it's not fun to get a character power upgrade and then be told you can't use it"..... TELL WHO?! the lfr hero that his two bis (after explaining what bis is ofc) legendaries won't work in the mythic he accidentaly signed up for?

[Deleted]

Bullshit, please tell what the fuck a player progression on 0 lights had to progress on outside ulduar, Heroic dungeons?!



600 at 300k Ap / run (at least +10) to get the 180M to paragon 3 weapons, for one character. And 25 DAYS of /played time spent FARMING mindless content is a little?!

How did you get that 25 days played time now?

If I assume a +10 takes like, I don't know, 20m
it's 600 x 20 = 12000 minutes = 200h = 8,3 days or something. Isn't it?

And that's without the "free" AP you get from Orderhall missions, WQs, Raids and quests.
so basically, you only have to run like.. 300 or less, even if you are really into it?

[Enter Name Here]

ITT: Alcoholics blaming the government for their own lack of self-control

[PowerOfTwo]

How did you get that 25 days played time now?

If I assume a +10 takes like, I don't know, 20m
it's 600 x 20 = 12000 minutes = 200h = 8,3 days or something. Isn't it?

Yeah... that was my bad, i think something got crossed in my head and did like "600 runs = 600 hrs / 24". Still, that's assuming that from the second you log on you have people funeling you MoS (or just any +10 key) thill the second you log off.... my bad again, just pissed.

[Free]

Rankings do matter for mythic guilds for recruitment purposes in replacing those who have fallen from the burn out. You just can't "go slow" if you care about mythic raiding and "take it easy."
While most good apps are just friends of good raiders, there are still free agent holes that must be filled. The 20th guild on Stormrage isn't going to have as much success resupplying their lineup as the 2nd.

[Dormie]

Getting burnt out on a game is 100% the players fault.

And is it surprising that mythic guilds get burnt out? It's more amazing if they don't IMO.

[JIMM-]

shame on Ion for taking no responsibility for his rubbish game design n raid tuning

conveniently pointed fingers at players that raided hardcore for most expacs for years without any problems until ion forces down the endless grind and RNG down to their throats.

instead of admitting the grind was waaay too excessive compared to all the previous WoW xpacs and fix the grind + RNG issue, he introduced more grind and more RNG to the game with every new patch

[Pockitt]

So you admit that 54 traits is not compulsory. Now that you admit it, how 'bout you just get better. Improve your game play 3% and that's the same as 6 traits. Pretty easy right?

I don't think you realize how tight the fights in Nighthold are tuned... Our entire raid has 54 traits and our DPS core is 85+ percentile players, yet we still barely made the check this week on our 3rd kill of Krosus..

[Deleted]

No we don't. Infact, the only people looking for BiS are the ones that always seem to start with this raider mentality bullshit.

PLAY. THE GAME. AT A SLOWER. PACE.

It's not hard. Not revolutionary. Won't change your experience of it, won't cause you to end up disliking it.

Do you know what BiS looks like for a casual player? Things like LFR Stargate is BiS for a casual player. Because a casual player doesn't play in raiding designed for guilds. They stay in content that is fit for them. But you raiders with your whiny vocal minority are willing to ruin fun gameplay just so you can speed through it as quickly as possible? I'll use three words that a good amount of people told me in college when I said I played WoW.

Get a life.

Sorry you feel that way, i hope you find your life..

Some of us like challenging content, not trivial content. That is why we need to gear our characters to reach it.

[Deleted]

Yeah... that was my bad, i think something got crossed in my head and did like "600 runs = 600 hrs / 24". Still, that's assuming that from the second you log on you have people funeling you MoS (or just any +10 key) thill the second you log off.... my bad again, just pissed.

Yeah but we didn't need 54 traits for EN Mythic. we really didn't. Consider the fact that NH got released like 4(?) months in the expansion. Consider all the AP you got from raiding, quests etc. etc. Mythic racers can't possibly be bothered by something like that, they probably ran MoS for itemupgrades longer and more often than they did for AP, I don't know.

I wouldn't know, I'm not racing. I even missed out a loooot of AP during my playtime because I wasn't really bothered (or couldn't be bothered) by it, but even someone like me is close to 2 maxxed out weapons. I did my fair share of runs, because I wanted the artifact skin asap... but after that, I barely did anything but raid 2x a week and 2-3 m+ for the highest weekly loot chest. (and daily WQs of course).

And lets not forget, you do WQs or maybe even M+0 (with 4 people) during the downtime (searching for a key), you don't have to afk doing nothing.
M+0 Arkway can yield up to 400k AP and doesn't take long either... because it's M+0.

[Free]

I don't think you realize how tightly the fights in Nighthold are tuned... Our entire raid has 54 traits and our DPS core is 85+ percentile players, yet we still barely made the check this week on our 3rd kill of Krosus..

It's no longer possible to raid WoW in a 12 hour guild and only play WoW for just over 12 hours a week, and it's a damn shame.

[Irian]

He's not wrong, to an extent.

I think the solution is to simply not make content that's so difficult. It's probably an unpopular opinion here on MMO-C but I really don't understand why the game is balanced around a questionably obsessed subset of the playerbase. If the content even feels like it was scaled around 54 traits then it's overtuned, plain and simple.
Blizzard cares far too much about making the game excessively challenging and forgot to actually make this stuff fun.

[Pockitt]

Yeah but we didn't need 54 traits for EN Mythic. we really didn't. Consider the fact that NH got released like 4(?) months in the expansion. Consider all the AP you got from raiding etc. etc. Mythic racers can't possibly be bothered by something like that, they probably ran MoS for itemupgrades longer and more often than they did for AP, I don't know.

I don't think you understood the point..

[Deleted]

I don't think you understood the point..

I actually do, what do I not understand?

[Dismembered]

So we went from blame the hunters to blame the healers to blame the guild leaders? LUL 2017