Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I would say he got it wrong a bit. It really isn't the mythic raid leaders fault but the fools that fallow these leaders. Sure if you are going for world first these are advantages you have to take advantage of. No one will argue when you are going for absolute best you have to take every opportunity that is on the table or else you might come up short to someone that will. This is the nature of wanting to be the absolute best and also being within the realm of accomplishing it. The problem is when you are going for world 1765 this isn't so much the case. Because no one is going to remember your name when you are 1762 or world 1765. I can guarantee you my guild will clear every boss in mythic well before the end of the patch. Sure we aren't anywhere near world first and it is by no means a goal of ours. But it will be cleared and farmed nearly to death by the end of all this. We do not require 54 talents. We do not require 3-5 alts. We do not extend raid times around tier launch. We just play the game. Sure at this point we have a lot of people are are at or nearing 54 talents for their main. Sure we have people with an alts or two we wouldn't shy from bringing to a raid. But all these things were natural. They got to those talents just enjoying themselves and playing the game at their pace (and yeah some play a lot). They got those alts because they had some spare time. NO ONE FORCED them to do shit. These things are not require to kill the content. They certainly would help reduce some of the wipe counts but wipes are just part of raiding. Deal with it.

[Deleted]

Honestly, it's like people don't realize that you literally can't survive that orbs on that last platform without 54 traits + massive cooldowns just for the stamina it gives you.

They don't realise it cos they don't raid mythic honestly.
There is 0 chance any real mythic raider doesn't understand that the AP system is a shitfest

[HermanJackalope]

https://clips.twitch.tv/warcraft/OpenDugongYouWHY

What a fucking ass. Seriously.

Fire this guy ASAP.

No. He is 100% correct. Unless Ion is present at every player's desk holding a gun to their heads making them try for a world first, then the blame lies with the peoples behind the keyboard. Failure of self-control/self regulation is not a failure on Ion's part.

[Tiev]

He's not wrong though? he's just brutally honest and people don't want to admit it's their own damn fault for burning out so quickly.

It matters ABSOLUTELY NOTHING if it's the guild leader's fault, the dog's fault or ION's mother's fault. It is what ends up happening, so players need to keep up or be kicked or not be invited in the first place.

[Deleted]

Secondly, the expansion is for "casuals" in that you always have something to do, even if it's just a stupid grind. But to be competitive, it requires........a stupid grind that is more hours than anything seen for nearly a decade.

Okay. I agree with that.

But if they have to choose between making casuals happy, and people truely *wanted* something to do outside of raids, and the competitive mythic crowd, I'd say they made the right choice.
And quite honestly, someone who wants to be competitive, but doesn't want to invest even *nearly* or half as much as someone else, should just accept it.
I mean, it's not impossible, like at all, to reach 54 for NH Mythic.
It really doesn't require a lot of gametime at all.

[Sarevokcz]

3000 trilliax kills, 1000 krosus kills.

Either show us your krosus logs without the majority of the raid being at 54 traits or stop talking out of your ass

eh, considering the other 3 bosses, which DO NOT have as tight dps checks, are killed EVEN LESS than Krosus, its fair to say guilds struggle more with MECHANICS rather than DPS...

we are one of those bad 3/10M guilds, we are progressing botanist, because we dont have the dps for Krosus, but we dont go around and blame it on some retarded traits, when its obvious EVERYONE in the raid will gain far more dps from improving their gameplay rather than getting the last 4 traits in their weapon...

[Dangg]

ITS MCDONALDS REASON IM SUPER FUCKING FAT
ITS THE SCHOOLS FAULT I FAILED AN EXAM I DIDENT STUDY...
ITS BLIZZARDS FAULT I HAVE TO PLAY 24/7 TO BE RAID READY
the list goes on

What a silly example.

How fat gain/loss in humans works is just nature and can't be influence, exam difficulty should test your knowledge or necessary skills needed in real life, while #3 is an artificially design entirely up to Blizzards judgment in something that is pure entertainment.

[eschatological]

Okay. I agree with that.

But if they have to choose between making casuals happy, and people truely *wanted* something to do outside of raids, and the competitive mythic crowd, I'd say they made the right choice.

For their business model, sure. But the raiding scene in the U.S., for example, is in utter shambles. Maybe that's not relevant any more, but there are still competitive players out there, and they'll seek out other places to be competitive in, if WoW doesn't fit the bill any more. Sure, maybe raiders quitting won't be as harsh a thing to Blizzard as casuals unsubbing for 10 months out of 12, but it's obviously relevant to those of us who've been "competitive" for nearly a decade with about the same amount of time invested.

[Deleted]

And they have to wipe for literally 100s of extra hours due to the tuning requiring a certain number of traits. The design is unfair to basically everyone.

Actually no. Its players fault and no matter how terrible and clueless blizzard can be (with ret paladin and their shit design where they refuse to budge in mind, stuff like equality as an example), this is not their fault.
They created a system that wasnt required for mythic and was created so you can always progress, even by a small bit while at the same time discouraging everyone from going overboard with it by making it extremely hard to do if you outpace your AK levels. End result was "too easy" mythic raid and blizzard bashing for not anticipating that people will go overboard even when its not needed, as they did. Hardcore people proved that they are more hardcore than blizzard thought and expected them to be.

Only then did they design raid for those people, as those people will do it anyway, why not design it so that raid requires that level. And people praise the raid for being great and hard. Suddenly its again blizzards fault for expecting players to do what they did anyway when it wasnt needed and they say blizzard forces them to do so. Right...

Just face it. No matter what blizzard designs, hardcore people will go overboard all by themselves. Limit attempts? They level alts and do more tries with alts. Do whatever, they run 5 runs with several mains and rest alts to gear just mains etc.
Blizzard NEVER forced you to go overboard, and actually in many cases discouraged or tried to save you from yourselves... and you found the way to do it anyway... and you still blame blizzard for it every single time.
If they are to blame for anything, its that they constantly think that you wont do it if you are not forced to do it. Its like they have infinite supply of faith in hardcore people having any self control.

You guys are silly.

[rda]

Guys saying that Ion is right, I don't know how you can not see it.

Imagine a swimming competition. People come, swim certain distances in certain styles, the fastest one in each category wins. OK, good. One year the orgs come forward and say that before you swim, you have to lift weights. Until you do 5,000 kg combined (you do multiple attempts, the lifted weights are added together), you are disallowed to swim (or, fine, if you want to be petty, let's reword that to - each 1,000 kg lifted subtracts 10% from your swim time or gives you additional attempts or whatever).

Do the athletes have reasons to complain?

(There is a bigger, more important, picture as well in that their new content is now 5% new gameplay and 95% rehashed old, and it's not about raiders, it's about everyone, everyone is getting hit.)

[Soul Hermit]

I-its the spoon fault for making me fat!
McDonald's made me fat! Eating their burgers 3 times a day for a year gave me diabetes, what the hell man?!

Same deal, if you play for 80+ hours a week, no wonder you get burnt out

[eschatological]

eh, considering the other 3 bosses, which DO NOT have as tight dps checks, are killed EVEN LESS than Krosus, its fair to say guilds struggle more with MECHANICS rather than DPS...

we are one of those bad 3/10M guilds, we are progressing botanist, because we dont have the dps for Krosus, but we dont go around and blame it on some retarded traits, when its obvious EVERYONE in the raid will gain far more dps from improving their gameplay rather than getting the last 4 traits in their weapon...

We've killed M-Krosus. And we keep hitting the enrage on Spellblade, because, guess what, that's a DPS check too, once you have the mechanics down, both on burst AoE on the adds (esp fire) and boss DPS. High Botanist is a DPS check in the last phase, especially if you are sacrificing people, and the mechanics before that are pretty simple, and involve mostly running out of shit and stunning flowers in a cycle. Tich you can outgear to the point where you don't have to pop brands, but if you couldn't cheese it as hard as you could, the DPS and HPS checks would be intense.

[Jngizu]

Okay. I agree with that.

But if they have to choose between making casuals happy, and people truely *wanted* something to do outside of raids, and the competitive mythic crowd, I'd say they made the right choice.

Exactly. All top guilds complained that EN was too easy. And it was, because Blizzard never expected top guilds to have almost 30 traits at the time it was released. So, knowing that top guilds were going to farm like crazy no matter what, they had several solutions. Make it easier to get 54 points, Tune the raid for 40ish, or slightly overtune it.

The third one is the one that fucks with the least amount of people. If they went for the first one, we would have posts everywhere saying that Legion is WoD 2.0 and there's nothing to do. If they did the second, Mythic raiders would complain that the raid was too easy. So they decided to make the raid hard, and let people decide if they wanted to farm to clear it ASAP or take a back seat and clear at their pace.

Not to mention, Mythic raiders are extremely selfish. When the game was horrible for casuals, they never complained, because they were having fun, Now that it's the opposite, they start to cry like babies. But guess what? It will always be impossible to balance a game perfectly around casuals and hardcore players alike. One of those will always get fucked.

[Grimlokh]

If you're a fuckin wow junkie, it's not Ion's fault. Fuck off

[Deleted]

Nobody who has 54 traits ENJOYED that fucking grind, believe me.

I got 54 traits yesterday and didn't mind the grind at all. I'm 9/10 HC 0/10 Mythic and I'm kind of sad that I can't even use AP anymore. I haven't gone out of my way to get it either, I haven't done a single MaW farm run just for AP, I've simply tanked all of the mythic plus dungeon keystones people have asked me to help them with, which some weeks have been a lot, as well as done all of the emissary quests.

I think it's time hardcore mythic progression raiders realized that Blizzard needs to be able to design the game for the majority of players, not the tiny elite. You guys go so far out of your way to min-max absolutely anything you can, and then blame Blizzard for designing a poor system. Not even the max number of attempts per week worked in Wrath, as the hardcore raiders back then simply learned the fights on alts and then progressed on their mains. Nor would a system that limited your battle.net account work as they would simply purchase additional accounts and blame Blizzard for that.

I think it's time for you hardcore raiders to take a step back, let it take the time it takes to progress through the raid. Every week you're going to get some form of upgrade and make the fight a little bit easier. ToS is still months away from being released so I really don't see the rush you all seem to be in.

The AP system is wonderful for all non-hardcore progression raiders as it means they always have something to look forward to, I think it's very selfish of you to want it removed simply because you can't restrain yourself from setting it as a requirement.

[XDurionX]

3000 trilliax kills, 1000 krosus kills.

Either show us your krosus logs without the majority of the raid being at 54 traits or stop talking out of your ass

That's not the point, though. Even if 54 traits were required to down Krosus, it'd be perfectly fine to reach those 54 traits in two weeks. Or in four. Or eight. It's your choice to consume the raid as fast as possible. Your choice to be in a #200 mythic guild. Or a #2000. It's your own responsibility, really. If you think it's exhausting, step down and adapt your standards.

[Makorus]

Where the fuck is the stupid "xD mythic nighthold is tuned around Level 54!!!" meme coming from anyway?

[Allenseiei]

My guild has the paradigm that Ion criticizes us on(we ranked this tier as 11th). I am an officer too, so his remarks are on me.

Honestly speaking what he said isn't necessarily false. We decide to commit to the current requirements to be competitive, however Blizzard's own paradigm is what caused this in the first place. Blizzard, as a company, should understand what people are able to push in sake of competitiveness. When did Blizzard's paradigm shift so that the raiding community changed their schedules to the current level? Wrath of the Lich King.
The accessibility that was thrown in WotLK gave forth to the possibility of creating alts at the same level as your main characters. The sudden reduction in raiding barriers made raiding content lose longevity and gearing became much easier. Thus the proliferation of alt raids started (some degree of alt raids where they funneled gear to mains existed in TBC, but they were very rare). Add to this enviroment of accesibility to raiding the limited attempts of Algalon and the end bosses after it, and you have people raiding with 2 alt raids to practice mechanics.
Using theoretical numbers, imagine an average player 2hours/day can gear his character decently in WotLK. A min max player can gear his character extremely well in 3hours/day in wotlk. If a min max player can play 6-9 hours a day, he can gear 2-3 characters extremely well. Those 6-9 hours a day were spent before in one character due to the barriers in place for raiding.
Ultimately, the accesibility is what gave forth the current competitive raiding paradigm, blizzard know it. Blizzard decided to disregard this downside that affects very little of the actual players, and accept it as an loss in face of the other gains accesibility gave.

[Deleted]

eh, considering the other 3 bosses, which DO NOT have as tight dps checks, are killed EVEN LESS than Krosus, its fair to say guilds struggle more with MECHANICS rather than DPS...

we are one of those bad 3/10M guilds, we are progressing botanist, because we dont have the dps for Krosus, but we dont go around and blame it on some retarded traits, when its obvious EVERYONE in the raid will gain far more dps from improving their gameplay rather than getting the last 4 traits in their weapon...

You don't understand how raiding works. The power characters gain from the paragon trait is MASSIVE. Stamina, dps, healing, everything is huge. And it's huge for every fight. Even on spellblade, the enrage is not a joke if you 5-heal it so have fun beating it without 54 on most of the raid. We are about to start botanist soon, but even there, less dps = more abilities to deal with. You admit yourself that you don't have the dps for krosus and you don't get how the AP system makes that fight dumb?

Gameplay improvement will obviously help guilds kill stuff but that's not the major factor. Char power is. And gating char power behind a bunch of MoS runs is plain stupid.

That's not the point, though. Even if 54 traits were required to down Krosus, it'd be perfectly fine to reach those 54 traits in two weeks. Or in four. Or eight. It's your choice to consume the raid as fast as possible. Your choice to be in a #200 mythic guild. Or a #2000. It's your own responsibility, really. If you think it's exhausting, step down and adapt your standards.

The point is you could be world 200 or 500 or 1000 without having to run m+ until your eyes bleed in the past. Now you can't. Nobody "chooses" to be world X, people enjoy raiding and enjoy being the best in the frame their skill and time investment allows them to. Except this expansion, raiding and being the best you can be isn't enough as there was a couple hundreds MoS runs added on top.

[Glorious Leader]

For their business model, sure. But the raiding scene in the U.S., for example, is in utter shambles. Maybe that's not relevant any more, but there are still competitive players out there, and they'll seek out other places to be competitive in, if WoW doesn't fit the bill any more. Sure, maybe raiders quitting won't be as harsh a thing to Blizzard as casuals unsubbing for 10 months out of 12, but it's obviously relevant to those of us who've been "competitive" for nearly a decade with about the same amount of time invested.

Can you provide a reason why literally everyone who isnt trying to push the bleeding edge should really give a shit? No? Then pull up a chair at the casual table.