Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Deleted]

People have burned themselves out on M+ and AP farming, and Legion, for many, has already turned into "just logging in for raids". Not worth a sub anymore. The game is old, this system is old. You can have the best expansion ever, but its still the same old system. Level up, gear up, raid. Level up, gear up, raid.

Isn't that pretty much every RPG ever? If you're tired of it maybe you should try a different genre.

[bubbadubba]

Got people playing 8~ hours a week, most of that in raids, who are in the high 40's and will be 54 before we get to the last 3 bosses in mythic.

Playing 8 hours a week or raiding 8 hours a week ?

Playing 8 hours a week and you do clear raids then I highly doubt they are in the high 40's/

I could see raiding 8 hours a week and doing the odd things outside of raid.

[Jngizu]

If you are trying to compete in the race... then you have to do split raids and have 5 alts.

Which is exactly his point. Your choice for competing in the race in the first place.

OK, I agree with what you are saying here.

But I don't think it is so much as Blizzard choosing between making things for a few raiders vs making them for everyone else. I think it only appears like that choice, while in reality no choice of that kind is being made. It's just Blizzard trying to have content on the cheap and instituting another endless grind because that's all they are able to do now. It so happens that raiders (and PVPers) are hit the first, and casuals aren't feeling like they have been hit yet - but they will feel it too, just from another angle (when they see that Blizzard are doing tiny amounts of new content and are spending 95% of their efforts on prolonging existing grinds).

Content could definitely be better, but at the same time, we already got 2 dungeons and 2 raids in 6 months. No other MMO releases content that fast, even FFXIV. If you know about game design, you would realize that they have to create artificial content because releasing dungeons or raids or new zones is virtually impossible.

[Elim Garak]

Players behave how game design allows. So it's totally the fault of game design. Someone just haven't thought of what players might do with the system and now shifts the blame. Business as usual.

[Deleted]

the difference between 50 and 54 traits is less than 2% dmg and like 60k HP. Vantus rune will provide greater benefit than that. people managing their movement and defensive CDs better will be far more benefical.

somehow i dont see how couple of people having few traits less is breaking your progression...

When you have 30 sub 5% wipes on krosus before killing him with most of the raid at 54 traits you'll understand hopefully

[rda]

Can you provide a reason why literally everyone who isnt trying to push the bleeding edge should really give a shit? No? Then pull up a chair at the casual table.

I can - because that's Blizzard substituting stupid grinds for actual content and that's going to hit everyone, including all casuals.

A full post (#576): http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post44717586

[Deleted]

If you are trying to compete in the race... then you have to do split raids and have 5 alts.

The race is completely community created and driven, no-one outside of the race gives a damn whether you're top 10 or top 10 000.

[Sarevokcz]

Players behave how game design allows. So it's totally the fault of game design. Someone just haven't thought of what players might do with the system and now shifts the blame. Business as usual.

the game desing in legion was specifically to made alts way, WAY harder to keep up at the same level as mains. except instead of adjusting to it by ditching most alts, competitive scene instead went and invested multiple times more time into gearing alts and farming AP on them. It only took them 5 months and finishing NH to realize thats not what they should have done it...

[Raiju]

Playing 8 hours a week or raiding 8 hours a week ?

Playing 8 hours a week and you do clear raids then I highly doubt they are in the high 40's/

I could see raiding 8 hours a week and doing the odd things outside of raid.

Playing 8 hours a week. 6 hours raid time with a couple hours spent doing emissaries (not got spreadsheet to hand but iirc a couple haven't done 50 mythic/mythic+ over the entire expansion, and in general only about half of the main team do weekly M+'s).

[Selah]

This is the same conversation across any MMO. Reality is that the more you play the faster you burn out, no matter what kind of content you are doing. Been a hardcore raider, been a casual, some expansions I didn't play past the first month. The big thing is that you take breaks from the game to play something else. Different MMO, different genre, anything.

[Army Dreamer]

Fuzzycoalas strikes back!

[Zequill]

Those 54 ranks spell is just an other version of something they tried to get right since ICC, progressive nerf.

They want fight to become easier over time so you don't give up because you think that boss is unbeatable.

They buffed us in ICC but it felt weird to see such different inside and outside the raid.

They nerfed the boss in DS but people wanted more control over that nerf.

Jumping to now, they are still trying this with rank 20 trait. Even if you wipe all night on a boss, next week, if people just play the game a little, they might get 1 point or 2 and so increase both their dps by a little and stamine at the same time. And you have complete control over it. You don't play, you will get almost no boost, only what come from bosses. You want to farm it, you can! And that the issue.

Everything need to have cap to make sure the player don't burn out? Really? I prefer they don't care about those really sick player and keep it the way it is.

Also, I think i'm rank 10 now so half way and I'm a durty casual, only doing WQ for emissary, only doing a really low mythic for week chest. If you want to be part of the top raiding, pretty sure asking right now for rank 20 is not too much. Even more if half your raid got it, stop slacking.

[Teri]

Players behave how game design allows. So it's totally the fault of game design. Someone just haven't thought of what players might do with the system and now shifts the blame. Business as usual.

Exactly this, Player power always had some "limit" , previously in old WoW this was being at the mercy of drops on your main of a limited loot table with no trading. 1 lockout per week, and if you were stuck on a boss, you could be stuck there for a while.

Now they added near endless repeat content, mythic+ has no lockout, and split-runs/loot trading again.

AP is another grind that adds player power, but isn't capped at all (until 54). Of course competitive players will try to max their characters the fastest.

In sports people use the best possible equipment too if the rules allow it, so why not in WoW at the top level.

Like swimming , for a few years the times got shattered during the era with limited rules on what suits people could wear.

Now what blizz does in 5.2 is basicly instead of limiting swimming equipment they make the distances 10x longer until you have high AK.

[Deleted]

It is very popular to be blaming players for their lack of self-control. What makes it particularly attractive in this case is that we are talking about raiders - the protected caste that the devs have been constantly licking and petting at the expense of everything else for a long time.

But no matter how tempting it is to say to raiders "suck it up, bwahahaha", doing so is very myopic.

Because it's not about Blizzard somehow delivering justice and choosing to make things that benefit most of the players while inconveniencing raiders (a small part of all players). No, Blizzard aren't doing that. They aren't making things that benefit most of the players. They are solving the task of keeping people hooked on the game without making content, and they are doing that by nudging / forcing / incentivizing players to grind whatever little content they already have, to spend thousands of hours doing what players have been doing for a long time already, for a few increases in numbers. They see content X that you are interested in, and they put between you and that content a wall of content Y, you have to spend months digging through that wall to the content X that you are really interested in (and they get money all the way through).

It is by far not just raiders who are hit by Blizzard's great decisionmaking here. It is also PVPers. You don't hear them, but that's simply because PVP has been turned into such crap in season 1 already that the number of PVPers about halved and likely went even lower now, that's it, that's the entire reason you don't hear them even though they are hit as bad as raiders. And it will soon be all other players, too. Just wait until you get a bit of new content in 7.2 and everything else is going to be just another wave of added difficulty modes and artifact levels with absolutely no added gameplay.

TLDR: Stop piling up on raiders. Look into what Blizzard are doing. You are hit as well.

Blizzard is releasing more content than any other expansion. The grind is there based on player demand, in WoD we had little to nothing to do, no incentive to do any content outside of raiding. Don't blame Blizzard for actually listening to this feedback and making sure we always have something to do. If you feel "hooked" then perhaps it's time for you to take a break and play something else for a while.

[Thelxi]

This whole debacle is an awful display of stupidity from the community. At least he is being honest people. Would you rather he defaulted to typical Blizzard PR bullshit and skim the question?

Whether you like or dislike their philosophy, at least you know it now! I can only imagine what would happen if they were being honest about how profit influences game design, people would be having seizures left and right on these forums!

[rda]

Content could definitely be better, but at the same time, we already got 2 dungeons and 2 raids in 6 months. No other MMO releases content that fast, even FFXIV. If you know about game design, you would realize that they have to create artificial content because releasing dungeons or raids or new zones is virtually impossible.

I am sorry, but that's not a lot of content for 6 months. One of the dungeons was a reskin. Both raids were part of tier 1 which was about the same size as tier 1s in previous expansions. It is 6 months and they didn't even unlock tier 1 completely yet. If it were MoP, we'd have had tier 2 already.

I mean, I also was optimistic about Legion when I saw 7.1 and then Blizzcon, but then good news kind of stopped and they started dragging their feet again and now we are 6 months in and yes it's not a lot of content for 6 months. (The entire "there's so much content" meme only exists because this time they have several grinds that are essentially infinite, that's all there is to it. That's better than having nothing, but not much better.)

[Elim Garak]

the game desing in legion was specifically to made alts way, WAY harder to keep up at the same level as mains. except instead of adjusting to it by ditching most alts, competitive scene instead went and invested multiple times more time into gearing alts and farming AP on them. It only took them 5 months and finishing NH to realize thats not what they should have done it...

Totally design fault. Instead of figuring out why players do split runs and do something to address the ROOT of the problem, they resorted to a band aid restrictive approach which caused players to burnout because split raiding was still worth it.

[rda]

Blizzard is releasing more content than any other expansion.

Absolutely and utterly not.

Again, they are having several infinite grinds and are gating everything to the moon and back, that's all they have, the amount of actual new content is not much bigger than in WoD (it's just getting twenty difficulty modes at each turn and that makes it appear like "a lot to do"). Again, it's been 6 months and they didn't even unlock tier 1 yet completely. If we were in MoP, we'd already have tier 2.

They were making MORE content in previous expansions (ie, MoP).

[Fynzie]

deactivate traits for mythic then, same goes for legendaries.

Oh wait only pvp deserves to place everyone "at the same level".

[Deleted]

I think the more casual players in this thread fail to understand how the game at the higher end works, and how it should work. I don't think these players have an understanding of NH mythic's design philosophy and how absolutely fucking backwards it is.

The game isn't skill based at this point, it's grind based. The world first guild took down all of NH in a week and a half. The content isn't that hard. It's gated behind grinds. And that's the problem. The problem isn't the AP grind, it's the fact that you are literally NUMERICALLY gated behind AP. Mythic is scaled for 54 traits and if you don't have 54 traits, you aren't in the camp that can do mythic raiding this tier. It's no longer about skill or intelligent play and grinds, it's about pure and raw time investment. And we're talking 3 days played of just maw of souls to cap out AP at 54.

So if you don't push for 54, your guild just can't clear mythic, it's not a thing that'll happen. If you do push 54, you've wasted so much of your life grinding that you're entirely burned out by the time you can even start THINKING about M NH progression.

'but it's not supposed to be grinded out so fast' no fuck off. What mythic raid team, with 20 players skilled enough to mythic raid, wants to sit and farm heroic (which takes about 2 hours a week), every week with no chance of progression in mythic. The issue is M progression is purely gated behind AP, there is no skill involved. You can't compensate for a 10% less damage and poor legendary items with skill, it's impossible.

NH is the worst designed tier I've ever raided in in by 12 years of playing this game. Legion is turning out to be the worst expansion for high end players to date. The systems don't even offer a tradeoff, giving more casual players more fun content. It just straight fucks hardcores, no lube. Nobody LIKES AP or legendaries, they're just flat out fucking garbage systems that never should have been put in place.

It was never about skill and intelligent play. It's always been about gear and the numbers on that gear.

It's been months and months and months since Legion was released. Anyone not at 54 and with a handful of legendaries just hasn't been playing, or have rerolled. If they've rerolled, they knew the consequences and that they would need to catch up.

You haven't been playing for 12 years if you think this is the "worst it has been" for hardcore raiding. I've got one big fat lol right here with your name on it.

I honestly don't know what you expect from an MMO. There is character progression, character progression takes time. If you want a game that is just about skill well, haha you really made the wrong decision "12" years ago.
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