Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Th3D0n]

Achievements still exist in Legion and isn't exactly content in itself, it merely gives you another reason to run existing content, much like AP in Legion.

Pet battles still exist in Legion and I really wouldn't call it huge, but whatever floats your boat.

You completely missed the point he was trying to make, he was saying that those 2 expansions brought in those features, aka they needed a lot of work and development time to implement and yes of course the expansions that follow continue using them, but the core of the features came with those 2 specific expansions.

[Sansnom]

The root of the problem is competition for world first.

Is it really?

While during the race the schedule is intense, once the race is over, I would assume their schedule becomes less demanding. Sure there is the farming and preparation for the next tier, but that is a few months, giving them time to gear up their raid make up.

I think the problems are the one who takes the game seriously but not necessary at the same skill level as the world first or other top 50 or so guilds. They want to stay in touching distance of these guilds but since they do not have the same skill level, it takes much more time for them to clear, hence the prolong long raiding schedule.

[Deleted]

legion has basically the same amount of content compared to wod, the difference is they added rewards for repeatedly running that same content over and over

repeating content =/= new content, sorry

So World Quests, profession quests, class hall quests, artifact weapon quests, Suramar as a max level zone, additional dungeons after the expansion's release as well as more world bosses don't count? WoD had the same garrison for everyone as well as one daily quest per day which didn't reward you with anything you needed. It didn't add a single dungeon past its release and the existing dungeons became obsolete immediately.

[Jngizu]

I am not going to respond point by point, you are wrong almost everywhere. Ie, you take pet battles for MoP and pet battles for Legion like they are equal. They are not equal. Pet battles were a new system for MoP and they had like 400-450 pets at launch, tons of achievements, multiple new concepts added (ie, pet PVP). In Legion they only added something like a hundred pets, no new concepts. MoP wins on this item easily. It's the same with most of your other points.

Legit wondering if you're trolling or not... How am I wrong in saying that Legion has more Dungeons and World bosses? Oh wait, I'm right. Same for all my points (except maybe pet battles but I don't care about it so I don't know). You only focus on the one thing that pretty much no one cares about (well aside from you apparently).

so why did I play mop from start to finish, and in Legion I already barely log in apart from +15 once a week and NH once a week?

Please tell me what you were doing outside of raids, I'm really interested, because up until the Timeless Isles, there was nothing else to do after the first few weeks.

[Tart]

So your fix is to remove the only reason people raid competitively so theres no more reason to raid.??

Did people have no reason to raid in vanilla?

[kamuimac]

I'm guild master of a mythic raiding guild and I just told people point-blank that I'm not going to ask players to spam Mythic because I knew it would burn them out.

Competitive raiding existed and worked fine long before people decided to do splitruns and altruns and whatnot. Competitive raiders need to chill. Just a little bit. Being competitive also means being enduring - ask any sports players their thoughts on that. You can't train 7 days a week 15 hours a day and expect to get a good team.

I think it'll solve itself honestly. These crazy guild leaders will just lose their guilds and those that remain won't be like that.

or what is much more possible looking at mythic raiding scene from last couple of years you will loose your most capable raiders who will pursue better progressed guild who do force people to farm and your guild will hit the never ending "i recruited 3 trials but lost 2 o my best performing raiders at the same time" -_-

[kamuimac]

Agree with that and the wannabee Kungens filter that mentality down to the next level of player, who feel they need to overgear just to do a stupid normal raid. It's either faceroll or fuck off.

so you mean those 90% of people who make/join lfg pugs ? you know those who are able to kill more then first 2-3 bosses befire their group disbands after first wipe ?

[Teri]

So World Quests, profession quests, class hall quests, artifact weapon quests, Suramar as a max level zone, additional dungeons after the expansion's release as well as more world bosses don't count?

Suramar/weapon quests, class hall, profession is generally 1-time content and is indeed content.

I personally only count each dungeon once as content as the 4 different difficulties don't make the story/mechanics/layout drasticly different.

World quests and such are a great system, and certainly more varied then old dailies, and I love the 7.2 updates to them(rep will matter after exalted,legion invasions/better itemlevel etc.), same for world bosses (890 loot for the new ones), and for me this is still content as I don't raid or spam m+.

But of course if you are 900+ (not me), the only way to improve is AP and/or mythic+/raids repeating the same thing over and over and over. But really, raids always been the highest level of content since vanilla, except now we have way more "versions", and heroic raid loot or high m+ loot isn't that far below mythic considering titanforging so of course people will utilize those.

[Zanaku]

You dont HAVE to run maw of souls if you dont want too.

Of course you dont. No one HAS to even play the game. But you obviously still dont get what is wrong. They like playing that way. They like playing for 80 hrs a week to push cutting edge content. They have done so for many expansions. Then one day, Blizzard made that type of playstyle require (yes require) grinding Maw of Souls. It is OK to blame blizzard for burnout in that SPECIFIC INSTANCE. Because they were enjoying it BEFORE, now they dont. This is what you guys dont understand.

Their option is to just stop being hardcore. Which I'm sure many of you are like, yeah what is wrong with that? Have some self control and stop grinding out the content that is supposed to last all expansion. That is literally like saying, players who like pvp and have liked arena for many expansions should stop playing arena and not blame Blizzard for making a change to how arena works by making you grind Alterac Valley for hours in order to remain competitive. Yeah, you don't HAVE to. But if you liked Arena before, can you not blame Blizzard for changing it in a way that makes it not fun?

And to address the Refrigerator Analogy that people like to use. Basically people in this thread have said that, If your mom fills the Refrigerator, and you dont have the self control to not eat all of it and get fat, then dont blame your mom. Again no one is complaining about eating all the food at once, they have been doing that for many many expansions without complaints. The complaint, AND LISTEN CLOSELY, is that now the fridge is filled with some things that they dont like to eat.

The follow up to that analogy is obviously, well they dont have to eat all the stuff they dont like. It is OK to blame blizzard for a design choice ( or in the case for the analogy, a food choice) to try and make it work better. Because they enjoyed it before, something changed, now they are burning out

[Dizzeeyooo]

World Quests

obsolete once you get higher than 850 ilvl

profession quests

took about a week at the start of the expansion

class hall quests

garrison campaign took longer

artifact weapon quests

this + class hall quests = garrison campaign, its all the same thing

Suramar as a max level zone

not sure what being a max level zone had to do with it, its not repeatable so its basically leveling content that you do once you hit max level, wod had roughly the same number of leveling zones

additional dungeons after the expansion's release

dungeon, singular, but ok

more world bosses

not sure how a different looking boss with slightly different looking abilities that you still faceroll kill once per week = new content, but whatever

one daily quest per day which didn't reward you with anything you needed

legion world quests don't reward me with anything that I need

the existing dungeons became obsolete immediately

vs now when doing one +15 a week has a chance to reward me, and doing baseline mythic+ outside of that is pretty much useless

still not seeing that "massively more content"

[rogoth]

Because it's fucking not. Mythic is balanced around the majority taking weeks, months even to get to and kill Gul'dan. Building gear as they go along. Maybe even going back down to Heroic to fill out the tier slots. Those saying it needs 54/split are those that assume mythics are made to be cleared within the first month. Not a week or two before the next raid.

it's been confirmed multiple times, and even ion in this latest Q+A said it was, so i would suggest getting your facts straight before making a long winded response that is just your opinion.

[Coombs]

God damn Josh Allen has such a punchable fucking face. Ion is also delusional. A common trait among Blizzard developers.

[Deleted]

Content on its own doesn't fix the major problem that is the lack of replayability.

1) Most of the world quests became pointless during end game, which is a major flaw. Epic items, which aren't upgrades, should have been made salvagable and integrated to the process of upgrading other items or stats.
2) Legendary and ap hunts are over for most of the end gamers, and they were both poorly thought out incentives to keep people around during the initial stages.
3) Rng is a bloody cancer, which totally destroys the motivation to keep going. Raid drops, as well as m+ rewards are completely random and there is no way to pursue an item other than mindlessly running the same dungeons over and over, which is just another reason to cause the burn.
4) The map is horrible compared to previous expansions. Artificially designed traps to make displacement take longer than usual instead of making a proper continent. Delaying flight deliberately for the same reason, destroying gathering nodes in tandem with the horrible terrain.
5) Lack of alternative progression and divergence. Lack of player decisions to mean something. There is nothing to decide about other than moving between a cleave and st talent during a raid, which is yet another fiasco imo because an on demand cleave ability should have already existed in my toolkit.
6) Time spent towards progression, for the purpose of getting your character stronger should have been made more meaningful. The rng factor should have been balanced by alternative mechanisms in order to balance the impact of luck and effort. This balance isn't maintained, the game has become a streamlined fest with no real purpose, identical classes, an illusionary progression without any depth and thought whatsoever.

If I were Ion, I'd look at the mirror before trying to put the entire blame on guild leaders.

There are still loads of things that could be done to reverse the current situation but I doubt the developers have the motivation for that because they are either lazy or doing this on purpose as they are ordered by their bosses to do so. Legion may have sold good numbers, don't know if they made enough money with it and are satisfied overall but given the potential and years of background, it is such an embarrassment to see a leading title incapable of delivering the depth and immersion of a modern day's mmorpg.

Lack of re playability? I'm sorry but I'm not entirely certain of what you mean, do you mean that you don't have enough of a reason to continue to run existing content on the same character, or do you mean the incentive to run the content on an alt is diminished because you're already running it on your main?

1) The world quests still provide AP, resources, gold and serves as a means of completing emissary quests, their item rewards become obsolete quickly though yes and your suggestion could probably make them somewhat useful.

2) I don't think the Legendaries were intended to keep people around the initial stages, they are intended to be a fun additional thing you can play around with when you tackle different forms of content. As you obtain more legendaries, you will probably end up switching them around depending on boss or the content you run.

3) The RNG can be frustrating yes, but I think it's important to accept from the very start that the system is not designed for you to ever obtain BIS, because that would mean you were done with the content and wouldn't have anything else to do outside of maybe playing an alt. It's very beneficial for those who do not push the limits to the very end, as it means you always have a chance of obtaining an upgrade, even if that chance is really small.

4) I can't say I've noticed any issues like that, it's no better or worse than any other expansion I've played.

5) I think Legion has more alternative progression than any other expansion ever has, this is the first time you can truly receive upgrades outside of raids even as a raider. Choices also seem more important than ever, which spec you focus your AP in first, which spec you receive legendaries for first both mean that you had to make a choice in which spec you wanted to play. Any previous expansion and you had people switching between all three specs depending on the boss, making your choice of spec completely redundant.

6) I have no real answer to this.

I remain convinced that it is up to every person to take their own responsibility in how much time they put into the game. Just because the game allows you to play to no end, doesn't mean that you necessarily should, and I don't think Blizzard is to blame for the current system. It's more of a case that it has highlighted a problem that has existed for many years.

[Rogalicus]

Because it would restrict casual players. Like I said in that post, many of our non-raiders have much more AP than our raiders, because they like pottering in the world, doing WQs and other things.

If you cap it, they'd probably get bored and log off.

If they just have fun and AP is a by-product as you claim, it wouldn't be an issue, right?

[Raelbo]

I agree with Ion on this. Not only is it not the game's responsibility, but it is also out of the game's control to limit how much time any guild commits to the game.

Burning out has nothing to do with how much effort/time it takes to grind out X artifact levels on Y alts. It's entirely about how much effort/time a guild decides it will spend on the game.

It's up to guild leaders to decide how hard to push their members based on the effort/time factor, and to balance that at a level as appropriate by trying to achieve as much as possible but without burning the players out.

The fact is that it is entirely irrelevant what Blizzard to try and protect players from burnout, a player will be able to find a way of burning themselves out. If artifact level 54 took only half the time to achieve does anyone honestly want to try and argue that the likes of Exorsus and co would simply use the time saved doing stuff ouside of WoW? Don't be ridiculous, they would find other ways in the game to spend that time to gain an advantage over their competition.

[Tehshocka]

Everyone needs to stop complaining and address the purple elephant in the room.

People need to sit back and re-evaluate their life choices if you are seriously playing a game 30+ hours a week.

If you removed playing a game with drinking you would call them an alcoholic.

If you removed drinking with shooting up they would be a drug addict.

This game was never in 12 years intended to be a full time job for the masses. Stop trying to justify your addiction.

[Deleted]

Why not just put a cap on AP per week and be done with the whole thing? So I can put the rest on my off specs...or play my alt for a bit... or just bank the rest waiting for the next cap...

Then blizzard wont have to tune bosses around a certain trait and everything will get easier each week.

[Osmeric]

Whether you think that is true or not is irrelevant to the fact that they KNOW that this is the result.

The grind required by AP this expansion is beneficial to nobody - super casual players aren't even hitting 40 traits yet, let alone 54. Nobody who has 54 traits ENJOYED that fucking grind, believe me. Even if they just shut it off now it would take the entire expansion for casual players to max one of their weapons (if they'd do it at all at the current rate, it's that slow).

Well, it depends on what you call casual.

On my main, I raid with guild in mostly normal mode (with some progression into H, but not with expectation of clearing at that difficulty.) I have done maybe a couple dozen M+ runs total. I don't even do all M mode 5 mans every week, and rarely do the daily H 5 man. I do almost no PvP.

What I do is nearly all the WQs that reward AP, and the emissary quest every day.

That character just hit 54 traits on its main spec last week. Its alt specs are 35+.

[Vintersol]

so why did I play mop from start to finish, and in Legion I already barely log in apart from +15 once a week and NH once a week?

Then you are doing something wrong. You can do the same in legion as in MoP. I think it's you who has changed in some way.

[Deleted]

obsolete once you get higher than 850 ilvl


took about a week at the start of the expansion


garrison campaign took longer


this + class hall quests = garrison campaign, its all the same thing


not sure what being a max level zone had to do with it, its not repeatable so its basically leveling content that you do once you hit max level, wod had roughly the same number of leveling zones


dungeon, singular, but ok


not sure how a different looking boss with slightly different looking abilities that you still faceroll kill once per week = new content, but whatever


legion world quests don't reward me with anything that I need


vs now when doing one +15 a week has a chance to reward me, and doing baseline mythic+ outside of that is pretty much useless

still not seeing that "massively more content"

I'm sorry you feel that way, I truly am, for I am having a blast this expansion with lots of things to do, whereas in WoD I ran out of things to do within a month and only logged in for raids.

World quests and emissary quests still reward resources, gold, AP (which is always supposed to be useful) and a chance for Legendaries.

Completing them within a week doesn't negate the profession quests existence.

The garrison campaign only took longer because it was gated by one quest per week, in overall the order halls has faaaar more quests as they are different for every class and spec, whereas the garrison was the same for both factions.

They are not entirely the same thing, the order halls are so much more, as there are so many more of them. If I were to create a Death Knight now I would have a completely different experience with the order hall than I've had with my other characters, whereas the garrison was the exact same for everyone within the same faction.

The max level zone is an important point because it's the first time we've ever had a zone to go to once we reached max level, designed for max level.

The dungeons are not entirely similar as mythic plus keeps them relevant for everyone..

I'm not quite sure what your argument is here, aren't all bosses just differently looking with differently looking abilities from each other? And world bosses have never been difficult.

Judging from your responses it seems more like you value the content based on how quickly you can consume it, Legion keeps dungeons relevant throughout the entire expansion so that should be a big plus in your book but when it comes to profession and order hall quests unfortunately the alternative would have been to gate them which probably wouldn't have been too successful.