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  1. #841
    Ion is 100% correct. These hardcore raiders are essentially playing the game wrong. Mythic raiding doesn't automatically equate to having to run numerous split raids on tons of alts, or running the same dungeon over and over to farm millions of AP so you can max your weapon. These nolife, hardcore players choose to play this way in order to "compete" in an imaginary race that doesn't even matter and that no one really even cares about anymore. No one says you have to try to kill the newest mythic end boss within the first two weeks - that is the player's choice. If you were to play normally, you will still kill it - it's not going anywhere. No game should ever be designed around the playstyle of these types of players.

  2. #842
    Quote Originally Posted by Ickz View Post
    Ion is 100% correct. These hardcore raiders are essentially playing the game wrong. Mythic raiding doesn't automatically equate to having to run numerous split raids on tons of alts, or running the same dungeon over and over to farm millions of AP so you can max your weapon. These nolife, hardcore players choose to play this way in order to "compete" in an imaginary race that doesn't even matter and that no one really even cares about anymore. No one says you have to try to kill the newest mythic end boss within the first two weeks - that is the player's choice. If you were to play normally, you will still kill it - it's not going anywhere. No game should ever be designed around the playstyle of these types of players.
    Anyone remember the Vanilla PVP ladder? The one where literally only the biggest no-lifers ever had even a remote shot at becoming Grand Marshall or High Warlord? The system that was so terrible they threw it out gladly and never looked back?

    Any system that enables and rewards unlimited grinding is a bad system and always will be. WoW devs learned this lesson once, but those devs are mostly long gone, and the new guys are too proud to study their own game's history.

  3. #843
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisxor View Post
    They set rules for content you aren't forced to do. If you don't like it don't do it? A lot of people are unhappy? This is content that 2-3% of the player base does.
    To be clear of that 2-3% only a small portion of them are upset or riding the forums bitching. They are a subgroup of a subgroup. The raiding community has never been very large, the mythic raiding community even less so and the mythic raiders complaining about this even less. They are nothing burgers and they should be thrown under the bus.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #844
    Deleted
    He said himself that the nighthold is tuned for people with 54 traits so how can he then blame players for grinding to get those traits in time? The jump from trilliax mythic to krosus mythic is very high dps/healing wise (mechanically it's very easy ofc) so what does he expect the guilds who haven't grinded 54 traits to do?Wait 10 weeks worth of resets to get the remaining traits they need from the AP drops off the heroic bosses?

    Normally I agree that players shouldn't feel required to burn themselves out (unless ofc they're shooting for top 20) because the gear alone from each clear generally allows you enough upgrades to kill the next boss within a week or two. But this time it's completely different.

  5. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    I never said I shot for world firsts... doing so would be impossible with the amount of time I can play. But tuning for no life levels of play just doesn't affect the world first race, it affects the whole mythic raiding scene and even bleeds into the heroic raiding scene in a very negative way.

    Ion basically admitted this was a problem, that their AP design was a problem, then decided to shift some blame onto mythic guild leaders for problems created by Ion and his dev team. Hence this thread and a large swath of players being pretty upset with him and the direction of the game.
    That's because the Mythic crowd wants raiding to be done with after a week. Which isn't how it's designed. So they front load all their time into other things in order to clear the raid as soon as possible. It's really not healthy. Eliminating the artifact progression would hurt casual players by removing the ability to improve your character each week after all other avenues have been exhausted.
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  6. #846
    I would hate to be a game developer. The player base only talks in extremes making feedback almost useless and there is constant bitching between "We have nothing to do" and "Too much grinding, we are burned out"

    People may not like it nowadays but they are responsible for their choices. If they choose to grind out all traits as fast as possible or if they choose to do split runs and have 5 main characters because of progression purposes then that's their choice. Stop blaming other people for your choices and accept responsibility for them.

    Jesus, I'm in my early 30s and you all make me feel like I'm a 90-year-old man bitching at young people for always blaming somebody else instead of looking at themselves.

  7. #847
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    That's because the Mythic crowd wants raiding to be done with after a week. Which isn't how it's designed. So they front load all their time into other things in order to clear the raid as soon as possible. It's really not healthy. Eliminating the artifact progression would hurt casual players by removing the ability to improve your character each week after all other avenues have been exhausted.
    Who said eliminate? Literally no one is calling for that. We're saying cap it. At a reasonable level. The same kind of caps that have existed in this game from the start should apply to AP and M+ loot (and legiondaries can diaf as far as i'm concerned).

    Also, how do you know the mythic raiding crowd wants to be done in a week? That's only the case because a poorly designed loot system allows for things like split runs and now they've thrown AP, legiondaries, and infinite M+ loot on top of it. Because split runs and all these other things are possible, they become required for the world first race. Because they are possible, Blizzard has decided to tune around doing them.

    When it comes to the world first race, what is possible becomes what is required. The fact that this dev team can't figure that out is quite mind boggling, to be honest. When Blizzard then tunes around the possible, they affect anyone who does mythic raids, not just the ones vying for world firsts.

    The mythic/heroic raiding crowd was much larger and the community was much healthier and happier with the game before these things became commonplace. Raids did last longer because the devs had a MUCH easier time tuning them so you needed loot from previous bosses within the same raid to kill the latter ones.

  8. #848
    Deleted
    I myself am happy that mythic raiders are triggered by AP and Legion grind.

    Do not make a job out of a game. Game is not supposed to be burned out on. Also, you are an ever-dwindling minority in WoW, do not expect to be catered to.

  9. #849
    Half right, half wrong.

    Guess what, competitive raiding is about trying to kill everything ASAP, a few players try to achieve world first, others compete for server first, country first or just to finish before the next patch/major nerf. So it's just natural that in a competitive environment anything that can give and advantage has the risk of becoming something mandatory for those players, even if they do not enjoy doing it.

    It's the players fault? sure! we choose to play the way we do, but is our fault just as much as it's Blizzard's fault for not providing a set of rules (reflected via in-game systems) that give all players, not only high-end raiders, a common ground to compete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    Do not make a job out of a game. Game is not supposed to be burned out on. Also, you are an ever-dwindling minority in WoW, do not expect to be catered to.
    See, but that's exactly the point. You are right! the game should not be designed to cater a minority of raiders that do crazy stuff, but we have to ask ourselves... is this an ever-dwindling minority because that crazy stuff has become a requirement or because raiding as an isolated activity is not fun?

    The Legion's hamster wheel of random stuff to keep people p(l)aying has made this worse than ever when a few limits or less RNG driven systems would've worked just fine for everyone.
    Last edited by Geckoo; 2017-02-24 at 06:39 PM.
    "Mastery Haste will fix it."

  10. #850
    The problem come at from the requirements set by the devs AND the guild leaders. Devs develop fights and dungeons (m+ specifically) to have certain requirements to be able to succeed. They create the requirement needed to clear. Now, the flipside is, for a lot of cutting edge guilds, they require their raiders to meet these requirements as soon as possible, as well as having 1-3 viable alts that also meet these requirements. The devs also added on m+ and item scaling from those that increase in ilvl with raids, which also creates the need to run those when not raiding to get AP as well as legendaries and BiS gear. Again, this standard is then enforced by the guilds who want to clear as fast as possible.
    The point is, the burnout is caused by EVERYONE, and we all share the blame. The devs for making the requirements what they are, the guild leaders for having their raiders meet these requirements as fast as possible (sometimes on multiple toons), and the players fault for agreeing to them.

  11. #851
    When the top guilds say they never bench due to low rank artifacts or lack of legendaries.
    -then what the whiners really whine about is really something self-inflicted.

    Asking for a cap just to prevent others from progressing further than you, is just as silly as feeling "forced" to earn X amount of AP every day.

  12. #852
    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    I myself am happy that mythic raiders are triggered by AP and Legion grind.

    Do not make a job out of a game. Game is not supposed to be burned out on. Also, you are an ever-dwindling minority in WoW, do not expect to be catered to.
    Don't worry, Blizz will effectively kill mythic raiding before it's all said and done with help from people like you and you'll have your wish.

    You casuals that will be left deserve each other.

    This is coming from a player who helped other players all the time before I quit and led fun and successful PUGs. Not all high end raiders are jerks, despite what people like you would like to believe.

  13. #853
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And this is a problem why? Players don't burn out by doing the once off content in the game. It happens as a result of repeating content (Eg M+ Maw of Souls) beyond their capacity to cope with the load.

    The "need" to farm XYZ content to death is not driven by Blizzard. It's driven by players and their "need" to win at all costs. It's the result of players not having the maturity and self control to recognise and apply a sensible limit on how much time they spend on the game (or an activity in the game).

    I keep seeing this silly argument about people being burned out by doing MoS hundreds of times because Blizzard forced them to do so. I call BS on that. I can accept that making MoS slightly more lucrative than other instances is not great design, but that design "flaw" was exposed because players act like idiots, finding ways to try and game the system for maximum gain of something they actually don't need in the belief that it will help them win.

    The simple fact is that getting a level 54 artifact for NH was not particularly demanding. Getting it on a bunch of alts to split split runs was demanding, but this was never a requirement to do NH. It was simply what the top end guilds felt was the most effective way to spend their time on in order to try and get ahead of their competition. And therein lies the actual crux of the problem: Guilds so hellbent on winning that they will escalate their efforts to the point the winner becomes the winner because the rest have burned themselves out. Which is fine, but I think a lot of guilds who do burn themselves out would be better off learning that sometimes it just isn't worth it. Discretion is the better part of valour.

    It's infinitely better to be mature enough to realise when giving your all is not enough to win, acknowledge that you are beaten by the better player, and bow out gracefully before you burn out. Anyone in any competitive arena needs to understand what their own limits are and to stick to them and you cannot blame anyone else when you can't do that and suffer the consequences.
    And again once more : are flasks needed for raiding ? potions ? runes? food? enchants ? competitive os and alts ? I believe that every sensible raidleader will ask for those. Endpoint is that whenever entering high end pve u are expected to have your toon in top shape.
    In this expansion Blizzard made all content relevant to that resulting in an endless daily to do list for this sole purpose : being in top shape when entering a high end instance.
    I like to have tons of content. I.e. Tons of factions that I would eventually raise reputation with , do dailies , acquire mounts, awsum transmog gear,weird titles, currency to get toys and other stuff but that aspect of the game ( questing/exploring/fiddling in the world of warcraft) should not be attached in such a way with high end raiding and high end pve.

  14. #854
    Quote Originally Posted by IceMan1763 View Post
    https://clips.twitch.tv/warcraft/OpenDugongYouWHY

    What a fucking ass. Seriously.

    Fire this guy ASAP.
    there is another motivation to fire him but this comments are not one of them...

    They cant design a game to entartain a little group of ppl who can play the game for 18hs/day, that is not normal. People has a life, family, job, university, football, etc.
    burn the content in 2-3 weeks its just mythic guild choice, regular ppl use that time on real life too... and im talking about 96% of the wow population.

    So if you dont like it, you should get another game to fill your expectation of "challenge" ... i suggest the real life but ... whatever

  15. #855
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzajd777 View Post
    there is another motivation to fire him but this comments are not one of them...

    They cant design a game to entartain a little group of ppl who can play the game for 18hs/day, that is not normal. People has a life, family, job, university, football, etc.
    burn the content in 2-3 weeks its just mythic guild choice, regular ppl use that time on real life too... and im talking about 96% of the wow population.

    So if you dont like it, you should get another game to fill your expectation of "challenge" ... i suggest the real life but ... whatever
    I quit the game months ago because this jerk and his team have decided they are not responsible for setting a reasonably level playing field when it comes to mythic raiding and can't acknowledge the obvious fundamental flaws with legiondaries. They've also made other poor design decisions which should be obvious to any long time player let alone the lead designer.

  16. #856
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    The problem come at from the requirements set by the devs AND the guild leaders. Devs develop fights and dungeons (m+ specifically) to have certain requirements to be able to succeed. They create the requirement needed to clear. Now, the flipside is, for a lot of cutting edge guilds, they require their raiders to meet these requirements as soon as possible, as well as having 1-3 viable alts that also meet these requirements. The devs also added on m+ and item scaling from those that increase in ilvl with raids, which also creates the need to run those when not raiding to get AP as well as legendaries and BiS gear. Again, this standard is then enforced by the guilds who want to clear as fast as possible.
    The point is, the burnout is caused by EVERYONE, and we all share the blame. The devs for making the requirements what they are, the guild leaders for having their raiders meet these requirements as fast as possible (sometimes on multiple toons), and the players fault for agreeing to them.
    Dude, DEVs create the requirement, becouse it should be challengin and progresive... GL fuck it all forcing they members to fill the requirements as soon as posible
    do not try to blame the DEVs, the problem here is the fucking fanatism and excesivly high ingame time... like i said before ... get a fucking life and you will see how hard the progresion is.

  17. #857
    The Lightbringer Nurvus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDurionX View Post
    It's not his job to protect players from themselves.
    Actually, it is.

    Blizzard makes a game with competitivity and adds time gating, daily/weekly lockouts, etc, to restrict the pace of progress.
    They then ignore the fact that players can "soften" the effect of lockouts with the use of alts, greatly speeding up the gearing process.

    It's 100% Blizzard's fault for not designing a failsafe - which wouldn't be hard to do.

    Blizzard is shooting itself in both feet by designing a game with mechanics that ENCOURAGE burnout.
    They're stupid.
    The game has a monthly fee. They don't need to milk players out of every second of their lives. This isn't Black Desert Online.

    It burns out the players able & willing to go to such lengths, and pisses off every other player.

    The same thing happens with World PvP.
    WPvP's problem is more than a mere lack of balance - it's also pointless. It's pure griefing.

    What do you get from killing a player in the open world? Nothing.
    Before BGs were introduced, you had WPvP where all sides were willing and excited to fight each other, and there was a purpose behind it - Honor was gained pretty much exclusively from it.
    Even if you got ganked, fighting back and killing the opponent would get you a considerable amount of Honor.
    By adding BGs, and many other means to earn PvP currencies, but doing NOTHING about WPvP, Blizzard effectively left WPvP for dead, and wherever/whenever Flying is enabled WPvP is essentially buried.

    Blizzard could easily refine the old concept of WPvP and add stuff that makes it more exciting than ever - anywhere, anytime - instead of feeling like it's a waste of time, useful only to ruin other players' enjoyment of the game.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2017-02-24 at 07:23 PM.
    Why did you create a new thread? Use the search function and post in existing threads!
    Why did you necro a thread?

  18. #858
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzajd777 View Post
    Dude, DEVs create the requirement, becouse it should be challengin and progresive... GL fuck it all forcing they members to fill the requirements as soon as posible
    do not try to blame the DEVs, the problem here is the fucking fanatism and excesivly high ingame time... like i said before ... get a fucking life and you will see how hard the progresion is.
    Again, everyone is to blame for this. Devs created the issue, players choose to enforce it. This isn't a cut and dry A vs B scenario. Everyone has equal parts to blame for burnout. As I stated, players are every bit to blame as the guild leaders and the devs, but no one is innocent in this scenario.

  19. #859
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    I don't remember Artifact Power, multiple legendaries and repeated M+ runs being a thing in TBC. I don't remember previous expansions suddenly making it more difficult to "cap" your alt. I don't remember it taking months to reach full potential of your character *in a single specialization*, even ignoring the actual gearing process.
    Things were different. Wasn't there a grind for the resist gear? I did not raid during TBC so I cannot say but I do recall resist gear was a thing back then.

  20. #860
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    Things were different. Wasn't there a grind for the resist gear? I did not raid during TBC so I cannot say but I do recall resist gear was a thing back then.
    Not in TBC, really. Shadow helped in BT but resist gear was a vanilla thing. Even then, you would grind up the mats, make the gear and you were done. The issue with the Legion design choices is that you cannot be done because they raise the cap.

    For all of the 'it's not on Blizzard to protect people...'

    It is. They set rules. By having uncapped AP gains, they have a ruleset that means that people who have the time and willingness to grind a ton will get more power faster than people who limit themselves. Doing what you all advocate (being an adult and controlling your play) hurts you. If you're not competitive, eh. But if you are or if you're in a guild that is... you are hurt by this.

    The solution would have been simply - a cap that's high, but definite, adjusted for AK and which is weekly with rollover. That levels the playing field. Yes, the no lifers who play 50 hours a week might complain but the good players who only play 15 hours a week wouldn't be forced to keep up or fall behind.

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