Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[xanzul]

Wow this thread got really toxic really fast. Players are responsible for how they play the game not Blizzard. Deal with it.

[schwank05]

I don't feel that's needed when you can just scroll through any random low 3-5 mythic kills guild and see similar across half their roster. Every guild that isn't enforcing content outside of raids has people who log on minimally other than to raid.

I mean what else is there to do in WOW? I have always played exclusively for raiding and as I got older and got out of college and had a life I only have 5-6 hours a week to play and want to spend those hours playing the content I want. I also believe Mythic is a total joke and have never felt was needed and also thought "Hard modes" or the hardest raid content was perfect in Ulduar where only 5-6 of the bosses had a hard mode that was activated during the fight. The whole doing the same shit in different modes is and always will be a joke. I say get rid of Mythic all together and have the whole thing be Flex style with activated hard modes. then this whole 80+ hours a week playing a game will take care of itself. I wonder what exactly is the point in playing for these guilds after they clear mythic after 2 weeks of it's release? I for one would quit and unsub until new content came out.

[Nurvus]

Things were different. Wasn't there a grind for the resist gear? I did not raid during TBC so I cannot say but I do recall resist gear was a thing back then.

The problem isn't the grind itself, but the anti-fun of the most efficient means of grinding.
Playing an alt because you feel like it is fine.
Playing an alt because you feel like you HAVE to in order to be competitive is stupid design.

[cFortyfive]

As if it's not exactly what you're asking for.

Because it isn't and it's not like the ap required doesn't increase as well.

And in the same post where they said they'd be adding that, they said they'd be doing something about the AP gains from Mythic raiding, but you completely ignore it.

Can't help that I find that comment hardly exciting after seeing how that

We very recently deployed a hotfix to increase AP earned from Nighthold in order to make raiding, with a weekly-lockout, better compare in efficiency to repeated Mythic Keystone runs. And in 7.2, we’re more thoroughly addressing this issue by adding a significant amount of AP to the weekly Mythic Keystone cache, while somewhat reducing (and normalizing based on instance length) the AP awarded by repeated runs.

worked out. I presume you are still getting excited over a million ap so please by all means continue worshiping your dev gods.

"I'm such a hardcore mythic raider" stance.

I never claimed to be. I played at a certain level for a long time and that's about it and in previous addons it was perfectly possible to play at that level with very little time investment. I personally don't consider myself an absolute hardcore mythic raider but just a skilled player who happens to raid mythic. I am far away from someone who has 700m+ and runs every raid instance on every difficulty each week to have a chance of playing a second spec in a serious manner.

[Gamer8585]

Mythic EN was tuned fairly low IIRC: most would only have a max of 1 ledgendary, and between 30-35 Artifact traits. And the Hardcore World Firsters blew it up. Not only did they steamroll the content then they took to forums bitching about how easy it was and that it didn't even feel like a "real" raid.

Blizz said, "OK" and then tuned the fuck out of ToV and Nighthold. Now those same people are back out and bitching that everything is too hard and "grindy." Well suck it up buttercup. When Blizzard tried to tune everything reasonably you laughed and their face and talked shit. Now you have to work your ass off for a shot to practice on the end bosses. You wanted "Maximum Effort or GTFO" you got "Maximum Effort or GTFO" now either: 1) give Maximum Effort, or 2) GTFO.

The paragon trait worked best as a passive buff. Maxing it out gives you the equivalent of an entire extra tier of gear, and was supposed to stretch until the next tier of content and new talents came out. Grinding MoS until your eyes bleed and your hands had carpal tunnel 7 days a week was not a part of the design vision.

What Ion said was spot on in that's a community imposed burden more than a system one. Not being able to beat the end boss of a new raid on the first week is by design and ALWAYS has been. The bosses at the end of a raid are designed with the idea that you've been farming the bosses at the beginning for weeks. Its called "gearing" and has been with the game since Molten Core. Heck you used to need to farm the entry bosses to SEVERAL different co-tier raids before you could clear any of them. The World top 40 are the ultimate Try Hards, they get in a new raid (sometimes with a few greens and blues sticking around), and hit bosses hundreds of times with perfect rotations, optimal comps, and insane min/max strategies (If anything will provided even a 0.00000001% increase in throughput they're going to do it). They grind and do a lot of work to have a new raid completely cleared in 2-3 weeks. While its completely nuts how hard they push the content, it is ultimately their choice and they know what they're getting into.

Its the wannabe Top 40 Raid Leaders and officers who start demanding the same insane amount of performance that are the real problem. They push their raiders too damn hard, and many aren't prepared to burn like that so they /gquit or burnout.

I will give Blizzard some flack for not sticking with its EN balance design and telling the complainers that its OK that they beat EN so quickly, because they effectively over-geared the content.

[cFortyfive]

I will give Blizzard some flack for not sticking with its EN balance design and telling the complainers that its OK that they beat EN so quickly, because they effectively over-geared the content.

Not sure why I am even addressing this when you sound like some butthurt heroic benchwarmer but that's not how competition works and that's certainly not how the hardest content in a game must play out.

[Zanaku]

Because it isn't and it's not like the ap required doesn't increase as well.

Can't help that I find that comment hardly exciting after seeing how that

We very recently deployed a hotfix to increase AP earned from Nighthold in order to make raiding, with a weekly-lockout, better compare in efficiency to repeated Mythic Keystone runs. And in 7.2, we’re more thoroughly addressing this issue by adding a significant amount of AP to the weekly Mythic Keystone cache, while somewhat reducing (and normalizing based on instance length) the AP awarded by repeated runs.

worked out but I presume you are still getting excited over a million ap so yeah there is that.

I never claimed to be. I played at a certain level for a long time and that's about it and in previous addons it was perfectly possible to play at that level with very little time investment. I personally don't consider myself an absolute hardcore mythic raider but just a skilled player who happens to raid mythic. I am far away from someone who has 700m+ and runs every raid instance on every difficulty each week to have a chance of playing a second spec in a serious manner.

They don't get it dude. The thread is just filled with people attacking High end Mythic Raiders because of their chosen style of play. Keeping in mind, that no one complained about burnout in previous expansions as a World First Raider. I agree with what you said. IN THE PAST they were fine with time invested in raiding. NOW, it is causing burnout because of a very un-fun game design of Mythic+ Maw of Souls Spamming in order to remain competitive.

Lets not attack how they choose to play the game (Im not referring to the post I replied to). People, whether you want to believe so or not, some people play WoW, to be relatively competitive when completing the new raid instance. This hasn't been a problem before, and now it is. The fact that Blizzard has made sooooo many changes in 7.2 to address it, shows that they realize it is a problem. This isn't a problem about burning out because you are playing 80 hrs/week. It is a problem because you spend 80 hrs/week doing Maw of souls to remain competitive in a style of play, that they previously enjoyed in other expansions without a problem

[cFortyfive]

The thread is just filled with people attacking High end Mythic Raiders because of their chosen style of play

Well even terribad plebs need something to feel good about every once in a while.
I don't really think though anything is going to be addressed in a major way - I am quite certain all of the potential issues were absolutely foreseeable even for the imbeciles working there.

[Varaben]

It's not about protecting people from themselves. It's about creating a sane and predictable pace so that raids can be tuned properly.

And if they made it a system that didn't allow you to catch up if you missed a week then they're doing it wrong. It should be a rolling cap (meaning it's only effectively a cap on your max AP... if you're behind you can grind all you want to catch up).

An alternative would be to turn off paragon traits (slowly turning them on each week) for mythic raids. They already do this for PVP, so they already have the primary pieces for the tech in place.

And yes, most players would be happier with a rolling cap. It would give them a sense of completion when they reached it and allow for offspec and alternate character play. It's funny how players who push for a cap are called "addicts" with "no self control" while people vehemently opposed to it because "it limits my fun" are the ones who are not addicts. Seems a bit reversed to me....

Rolling cap makes sense, as you can't really "miss" a week, you just have to work that much harder to keep up if you haven't been all along.

And yeah, a cap is partially about protecting people from themselves. As evidenced by all the burnout, people really don't know how to pace themselves, so Blizz needs to set that pace. That's not the only reason caps make sense; as you mention, it can help with balancing. No matter how hard you play, if you re-roll you can't ever really catch-up without serious grinding.

- - - Updated - - -

This isn't a problem about burning out because you are playing 80 hrs/week. It is a problem because you spend 80 hrs/week doing Maw of souls to remain competitive in a style of play, that they previously enjoyed in other expansions without a problem

It kinda seems like no matter what you're doing, if you're playing for 80 hours a week, or even 40 hours, you will burn yourself out. If not physically, at least mentally. Doing anything for that long is harmful long-term.

[theyanger]

No. He is 100% correct. Unless Ion is present at every player's desk holding a gun to their heads making them try for a world first, then the blame lies with the peoples behind the keyboard. Failure of self-control/self regulation is not a failure on Ion's part.

How we know you don't know what you're talking about: You immediately talk about 'world first' when the requirement for 54 traits is 'world 1000+' or "We want to kill a fourth mythic boss"

eh, considering the other 3 bosses, which DO NOT have as tight dps checks, are killed EVEN LESS than Krosus, its fair to say guilds struggle more with MECHANICS rather than DPS...

we are one of those bad 3/10M guilds, we are progressing botanist, because we dont have the dps for Krosus, but we dont go around and blame it on some retarded traits, when its obvious EVERYONE in the raid will gain far more dps from improving their gameplay rather than getting the last 4 traits in their weapon...

Botonist would ALSO be significantly easier with 54 traits, and at the end of the fight? You still won't beat it without almost everyone having 54. Krosus is the number check, but the other 3 bosses ALSO require these kinds of numbers. You are also completely ignoring the fact that 54 traits is a SURVIVABILITY gain not just a damage gain. I bet you'd love it if everyone couuld just completely suck and eat a tick of solar collapse and not die eh?


You're not getting 4/10 without 54s.

I got 54 traits yesterday and didn't mind the grind at all. I'm 9/10 HC 0/10 Mythic and I'm kind of sad that I can't even use AP anymore. I haven't gone out of my way to get it either, I haven't done a single MaW farm run just for AP, I've simply tanked all of the mythic plus dungeon keystones people have asked me to help them with, which some weeks have been a lot, as well as done all of the emissary quests.

I think it's time hardcore mythic progression raiders realized that Blizzard needs to be able to design the game for the majority of players, not the tiny elite. You guys go so far out of your way to min-max absolutely anything you can, and then blame Blizzard for designing a poor system. Not even the max number of attempts per week worked in Wrath, as the hardcore raiders back then simply learned the fights on alts and then progressed on their mains. Nor would a system that limited your battle.net account work as they would simply purchase additional accounts and blame Blizzard for that.

I think it's time for you hardcore raiders to take a step back, let it take the time it takes to progress through the raid. Every week you're going to get some form of upgrade and make the fight a little bit easier. ToS is still months away from being released so I really don't see the rush you all seem to be in.

The AP system is wonderful for all non-hardcore progression raiders as it means they always have something to look forward to, I think it's very selfish of you to want it removed simply because you can't restrain yourself from setting it as a requirement.

Sorry, but "I sure didn't go out of my way" rings incredibly hollow. You've done multiple hundred M+s in order to be 54. There's no other way to be there. It's not a casual "Eh I run a few M+ with people"
You also now have a second weapon, or third or even fourth if you're a druid. If you absolutely refuse to dump AP into anything but tank, then vendor it - thats' their intention long term anyway. The point is, if you aren't running more than just your daily quests and your weekly M+ run (Which I think is beyond most casuals but let's assume it's getting done anyway) you're probably barely 40 something at this point.

[Tharkkun]

Who said eliminate? Literally no one is calling for that. We're saying cap it. At a reasonable level. The same kind of caps that have existed in this game from the start should apply to AP and M+ loot (and legiondaries can diaf as far as i'm concerned).

Also, how do you know the mythic raiding crowd wants to be done in a week? That's only the case because a poorly designed loot system allows for things like split runs and now they've thrown AP, legiondaries, and infinite M+ loot on top of it. Because split runs and all these other things are possible, they become required for the world first race. Because they are possible, Blizzard has decided to tune around doing them.

When it comes to the world first race, what is possible becomes what is required. The fact that this dev team can't figure that out is quite mind boggling, to be honest. When Blizzard then tunes around the possible, they affect anyone who does mythic raids, not just the ones vying for world firsts.

The mythic/heroic raiding crowd was much larger and the community was much healthier and happier with the game before these things became commonplace. Raids did last longer because the devs had a MUCH easier time tuning them so you needed loot from previous bosses within the same raid to kill the latter ones.

Not really. The only raids that lasted more than 2 resets were ones that had artificial gating involved. Whether it was time gated unlocks, game breaking bugs (Cthun), limited attempts or farming for resist gear reagents. In Cataclysm Blizzard limited what the player could do each week. Guess what? They lost more subs than any expansion. When they gave players nothing to do to progress themselves outside of raids in WoD guess what happened again? Massive subscriber loss. So when they give you near unlimited things to do please stop complaining. Those who are capable of pacing themselves will. The others can go see a shrink.

[IceMan1763]

Not really. The only raids that lasted more than 2 resets were ones that had artificial gating involved. Whether it was time gated unlocks, game breaking bugs (Cthun), limited attempts or farming for resist gear reagents.

Yeah sorry, that's just not true:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...d_the_longest/

In Cataclysm Blizzard limited what the player could do each week. Guess what? They lost more subs than any expansion. When they gave players nothing to do to progress themselves outside of raids in WoD guess what happened again? Massive subscriber loss. So when they give you near unlimited things to do please stop complaining. Those who are capable of pacing themselves will. The others can go see a shrink.

Wrath limited what you could do each week as well and grew the game to 12 million. Cata went from the game's highest point of 12 million to 9.1 and Blizzard would kill to have half that number right now, which I guarantee they do not. MOP may have lost slightly less going from 10 to 7.7, but they started almost where Cata ended so it's really not a big difference especially when you consider it from a percentage standpoint. WOD lost far more than both of those. There is no way we can attribute the subscriber dip to any one thing in particular, but I think that it's fair to say that on the whole it was either due to lack of quality content and/or lack of content that was well received by the playerbase.

Your criticism of Cata and WOD not having much to do outside of raids is fine, but how you translate that to a reasonable cap on AP being the same thing as completely taking the system away is beyond me. Also, I think you're being pretty generous calling the AP system "content". In reality, it's just a system which forces you to do the same content over and over. That's fine, but if you implement a system like that for the love of god, don't make it infinitely grindable. That's how you get the amount of burnout the game is currently experiencing and a totally unfair mythic raid environment.

Also, how are people who want a reasonable cap in place so mythic raids can be fairly tuned not capable of pacing themselves? I mean, I literally quit the game over the lack of a cap and a few other incredibly poor (in my opinion) design decisions. Would not the people who fight a cap be the ones incapable of pacing themselves?

[Tharkkun]

They don't get it dude. The thread is just filled with people attacking High end Mythic Raiders because of their chosen style of play. Keeping in mind, that no one complained about burnout in previous expansions as a World First Raider. I agree with what you said. IN THE PAST they were fine with time invested in raiding. NOW, it is causing burnout because of a very un-fun game design of Mythic+ Maw of Souls Spamming in order to remain competitive.

Lets not attack how they choose to play the game (Im not referring to the post I replied to). People, whether you want to believe so or not, some people play WoW, to be relatively competitive when completing the new raid instance. This hasn't been a problem before, and now it is. The fact that Blizzard has made sooooo many changes in 7.2 to address it, shows that they realize it is a problem. This isn't a problem about burning out because you are playing 80 hrs/week. It is a problem because you spend 80 hrs/week doing Maw of souls to remain competitive in a style of play, that they previously enjoyed in other expansions without a problem

People have been complaining about burnout since Blizzard split raids into 10/25 and then Heroic/Normal in Wrath of the Lich King.

In Cata they switched to shared lockouts on normal/heroic and casual/progression raiders were both pissed. They limited dailies as well.

In MOP after LFR was in it's second iteration raiders bitched about tier/trinketgs in LFR matching normal/heroic requiring them to do that difficulty for progression. We also had valor for upgrading gear which people cried about because they felt they had to farm it non-stop to be viable

In WOD valor upgrades were removed until the final tier, LFR gave complete shit loot and the only viable way for a non-raider to gear themselves became raids. Raiders won the WOD expansion.

Blizzard said if you can't control yourself then that's your fault and added back similar drops to LFR, made a casual advancement system (AP), invented a progression system outside of raids (Mythic+) and now we have Legion. God forbid we have too many things to do.

Raiders have complained from the dawn of time and this is the first expansion where their influence isn't directly taken into consideration.

[Kazgrel]

People have been complaining about burnout since Blizzard split raids into 10/25 and then Heroic/Normal in Wrath of the Lich King.

In Cata they switched to shared lockouts on normal/heroic and casual/progression raiders were both pissed. They limited dailies as well.

In MOP after LFR was in it's second iteration raiders bitched about tier/trinketgs in LFR matching normal/heroic requiring them to do that difficulty for progression. We also had valor for upgrading gear which people cried about because they felt they had to farm it non-stop to be viable

In WOD valor upgrades were removed until the final tier, LFR gave complete shit loot and the only viable way for a non-raider to gear themselves became raids. Raiders won the WOD expansion.

Blizzard said if you can't control yourself then that's your fault and added back similar drops to LFR, made a casual advancement system (AP), invented a progression system outside of raids (Mythic+) and now we have Legion. God forbid we have too many things to do.

Raiders have complained from the dawn of time and this is the first expansion where their influence isn't directly taken into consideration.

Also there was the early MoP issue where you had to grind out reps (which were gated behind other reps...hello there, Golden Lotus, keeping us from the Celestials rep and maybe one other that I've forgotten) just to be able to spend your valor points on the gear you wanted. That one never made any sense to me.

Cata also unified the loot tables between 10 and 25. Prior to that (and most notoriously in Wrath), they each had their own loot table. I refer to Wrath as notorious for that due to all the batshit crazy good trinkets that only dropped in 25 man ICC (and ToC to a lesser extent).

[theyanger]

Also there was the early MoP issue where you had to grind out reps (which were gated behind other reps...hello there, Golden Lotus, keeping us from the Celestials rep and maybe one other that I've forgotten) just to be able to spend your valor points on the gear you wanted. That one never made any sense to me.

Cata also unified the loot tables between 10 and 25. Prior to that (and most notoriously in Wrath), they each had their own loot table. I refer to Wrath as notorious for that due to all the batshit crazy good trinkets that only dropped in 25 man ICC (and ToC to a lesser extent).

And yet, NONE of those things even approach a fraction of how much this expansion demands the player grind.

[arcaneshot]

And yet, NONE of those things even approach a fraction of how much this expansion demands the player grind.

And yet people were dumb enough to go and do it anyway. What does that say about your players?

[Tharkkun]

Yeah sorry, that's just not true:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...d_the_longest/



Wrath limited what you could do each week as well and grew the game to 12 million. Cata went from the game's highest point of 12 million to 9.1 and Blizzard would kill to have half that number right now, which I guarantee they do not. MOP may have lost slightly less going from 10 to 7.7, but they started almost where Cata ended so it's really not a big difference especially when you consider it from a percentage standpoint. WOD lost far more than both of those. There is no way we can attribute the subscriber dip to any one thing in particular, but I think that it's fair to say that on the whole it was either due to lack of quality content and/or lack of content that was well received by the playerbase.

Your criticism of Cata and WOD not having much to do outside of raids is fine, but how you translate that to a reasonable cap on AP being the same thing as completely taking the system away is beyond me. Also, I think you're being pretty generous calling the AP system "content". In reality, it's just a system which forces you to do the same content over and over. That's fine, but if you implement a system like that for the love of god, don't make it infinitely grindable. That's how you get the amount of burnout the game is currently experiencing and a totally unfair mythic raid environment.

Also, how are people who want a reasonable cap in place so mythic raids can be fairly tuned not capable of pacing themselves? I mean, I literally quit the game over the lack of a cap and a few other incredibly poor (in my opinion) design decisions. Would not the people who fight a cap be the ones incapable of pacing themselves?

Each and every Vanilla raid had some type of gear you needed to farm. Please don't use the starter raids as an example as most people didn't hit max level for almost a year. BC also had major attunements which prevented guilds from starting them. Obviously you aren't going to raid a 25 man instance when it opens the same day the expansion launches. I can go through each raid and show an example of either resist gear, attunements, onyxia scale cloaks, bugs or limited attempts to counter that list. There's only a couple raids that legitly took raiders more than a reset to kill.

Cataclysm hit 12 million and that is a fact. But just like many things in this world it happened due to impeccable timing and a bit of luck on Blizzard's part. WOTLK was already beginning it's decline at around 10 million subs. It was in the trending reports out there. China had closed WOW completely that previous year and re-opened with a new company. In the fall just a few months before Cataclysm was released the WOTLK expansion got approved from the Chinese government to be released. That brought a lot of players back to the game and stopped the decline before the quarterly subs report came out. A few months later Cataclysm released and WoW hit their highest subscriber base ever. Then the exodus happened not more than 3 months later as the largest subscriber loss in history happened.

Most people forget this even happened. Had WOTLK been released on time on China we would've seen a completely different picture.

[LaserChild9]

"We shouldn't design our game around people playing it 80 hours a week."

>Releases content tuned for people with 54 Artifact traits

Fuck off, Blizzard.

If you got caught speeding in a Ferrari, what would you say to the police officer? "It's not my fault officer, Ferrari built it to do over 200mph so that's what I was doing!" No, you wouldn't, because that's stupid, you would accept that although Ferrari gave it a high top speed, you chose how fast to drive it.

[IceMan1763]

Each and every Vanilla raid had some type of gear you needed to farm. Please don't use the starter raids as an example as most people didn't hit max level for almost a year. BC also had major attunements which prevented guilds from starting them. Obviously you aren't going to raid a 25 man instance when it opens the same day the expansion launches.

Cataclysm hit 12 million and that is a fact. But just like many things in this world it happened due to impeccable timing and a bit of luck on Blizzard's part. WOTLK was already beginning it's decline at around 10 million subs. It was in the trending reports out there. China had closed WOW completely that previous year and re-opened with a new company. In the fall just a few months before Cataclysm was released the WOTLK expansion got approved from the Chinese government to be released. That brought a lot of players back to the game and stopped the decline before the quarterly subs report came out. A few months later Cataclysm released and WoW hit their highest subscriber base ever. Then the exodus happened not more than 3 months later as the largest subscriber loss in history happened.

Most people forget this even happened. Had WOTLK been released on time on China we would've seen a completely different picture.

A lot of the listed raids are Wrath and Cata, that was my whole point. I was ignoring the BC and Vanilla ones. You literally said that no raid lasted longer than two lockouts without resist gear or other artificial mechanics... you were wrong. Raids with proper gear progression lasted longer than that and in some cases, much longer.

I'm not debating sub numbers. You can't compare xpacs that had 10+ million subs to one that is probably in the 3 million range right now.

[Senistian]

If these "top" players want to engage in an imaginary race for no reason what so ever, then get burned out because of it, I say sucks for them. Nobody really cares who is doing what or when they are doing it. They do this to themselves.