The Fate of the Nightborne - **spoilers**

[delus]

I think he's referring to the fact that there are hundreds of Nightborne addicted to the Nightwell's essence and the Arcan'dor isn't exactly forthcoming enough with its fruit to handle all that would need them. Given the speed at which the Nightborne wither without Arcwine to sustain them, and the relative paucity of the Arcan'dor fruit, I believe we're going to see some pretty massive loss of life before all the Nightborne of Suramar can be treated.

More of a case of mechanics vs lore I'd assume since the quest will get real boring if you had to administer the fruit to hundreds of nightborne.

[Aucald]

More of a case of mechanics vs lore I'd assume since the quest will get real boring if you had to administer the fruit to hundreds of nightborne.

Unsure, Valewalker Farodin in Shal'Aran actually says that the Arcan'dor is slow to provide its fruit and wonders if it will be enough to save the Nightborne. Of course we'll have to see what happens in the future of Legion or beyond.

[cwowtbang]

Tyrandes whole character arc in Warcraft III was of a member of an ancient race learning to overcome the prejudices towards what she though were "lesser races, not worthly of walking in Kalimdor". She started as a character only looking for a foreigner to shoot at, ended up being a proactive leader of allied forces.

Thus, giving her arrogant dialogue in this context feels weird. A more natural reaction would be showing interest of seeing a whole civilisation of her people prosper and fight their own battles, or reminiscing of how she is again being a part of an allied force against demonic forces. Instead, her dialogue is just pointless whining. Well, that and "MALFURION WHERE ARE YOU".

If she'd lose that crutch of a husband she would be taken a bit more serious in the present.

[Oneirophobia]

Yeah many people were mad because Tyrande wasn't so aggressive and impulsive like in warcraft 3 and now that she had returned to his root, many people say: Tyrande is a asshole you had ruined his character, how can she insult me? She would had to kiss my boots, how butchered is tyrande, etc

Yeah I'm kind of annoyed she wasn't as aggressive to Horde players. I play on both sides.

I would have liked that, when you stumble upon Tyrande and Malfurion as Malfurion is being taken by Xavius that Tyrande immediately attacks you, blaming you and accusing you of assisting Xavius. You were with Malfurion the whole time, and Tyrande has a pretty poor opinion of Hordies, so it would make sense for her to just confirmation-bias her way into thinking you've led Malfurion into a trap.


So, she attacks you, you beat her down to 75% health and then she goes "Okay this is fucking stupid you have [artifact] on you and I won't have the energy I need to rescue my husband. Here's your options: Prove you mongrels are as "honorable" as you insist and help me rescue Malfurion, stay out of my face, or face the wrath of Val'sharah, the Cenarion Circle, the priesthood of Elune, Darnassus, the Alliance, the Wardens and every other group I can call in favours from. Your choice."

Obviously you're stuck with selecting, "alright, jesus lady, calm your moon-blessed tits, I'll help, just shut the fuck up and stop wasting time" and then off you go.

By the end of it, I'd be okay if she treated you slightly less awful but jabbing you along the way to produce results would be good. It'd be funny if she "accidentally" shot you with an arrow once and while, while you're busy attacking things, and say something like "Oh, my mistake, monsters are easily confused with one another."

[Evangeliste]

Yeah I'm kind of annoyed she wasn't as aggressive to Horde players. I play on both sides.

I would have liked that, when you stumble upon Tyrande and Malfurion as Malfurion is being taken by Xavius that Tyrande immediately attacks you, blaming you and accusing you of assisting Xavius. You were with Malfurion the whole time, and Tyrande has a pretty poor opinion of Hordies, so it would make sense for her to just confirmation-bias her way into thinking you've led Malfurion into a trap.


So, she attacks you, you beat her down to 75% health and then she goes "Okay this is fucking stupid you have [artifact] on you and I won't have the energy I need to rescue my husband. Here's your options: Prove you mongrels are as "honorable" as you insist and help me rescue Malfurion, stay out of my face, or face the wrath of Val'sharah, the Cenarion Circle, the priesthood of Elune, Darnassus, the Alliance, the Wardens and every other group I can call in favours from. Your choice."

Obviously you're stuck with selecting, "alright, jesus lady, calm your moon-blessed tits, I'll help, just shut the fuck up and stop wasting time" and then off you go.

By the end of it, I'd be okay if she treated you slightly less awful but jabbing you along the way to produce results would be good. It'd be funny if she "accidentally" shot you with an arrow once and while, while you're busy attacking things, and say something like "Oh, my mistake, monsters are easily confused with one another."

That, made me laugh and that would be awesome. I just bet they didn't have much time or inclination to do this because I feel like their focus is more going to be on Genn Greymane/Anduin and Sylvanas really so it's a shame that they do lose that kind of Alliance and Horde fracture that they began with and was so much imposed with the cinematic... Have to wait and see.

[chrisisvacant]

Yeah I'm kind of annoyed she wasn't as aggressive to Horde players. I play on both sides.

I would have liked that, when you stumble upon Tyrande and Malfurion as Malfurion is being taken by Xavius that Tyrande immediately attacks you, blaming you and accusing you of assisting Xavius. You were with Malfurion the whole time, and Tyrande has a pretty poor opinion of Hordies, so it would make sense for her to just confirmation-bias her way into thinking you've led Malfurion into a trap.


So, she attacks you, you beat her down to 75% health and then she goes "Okay this is fucking stupid you have [artifact] on you and I won't have the energy I need to rescue my husband. Here's your options: Prove you mongrels are as "honorable" as you insist and help me rescue Malfurion, stay out of my face, or face the wrath of Val'sharah, the Cenarion Circle, the priesthood of Elune, Darnassus, the Alliance, the Wardens and every other group I can call in favours from. Your choice."

Obviously you're stuck with selecting, "alright, jesus lady, calm your moon-blessed tits, I'll help, just shut the fuck up and stop wasting time" and then off you go.

By the end of it, I'd be okay if she treated you slightly less awful but jabbing you along the way to produce results would be good. It'd be funny if she "accidentally" shot you with an arrow once and while, while you're busy attacking things, and say something like "Oh, my mistake, monsters are easily confused with one another."

Do you think Tyrande would would act that way to any other race leader? Probably not.

The person she is interacting with is a legendary hero who has crossed faction lines countless times by this point. For her to treat you with any kind of disrespect would be kind of absurd. And in the scenario you describe, I doubt she'd make such an idle threat. If she's about to get merc'd by you and [artifact], she isn't going to start making threats about pulling in favors. She won't get there to call those favors in. She'll be dead long before then.

[Aucald]

Aside from the rather shameful display with Xavius' illusions of Malfurion, I've never really thought Tyrande's manner with the Horde PC during the close of the Val'sharah questline was anything other than expected. She starts with extreme distrust and outright suspicion, which is unsurprising given current strain between the Horde and Alliance - Tyrande having always been one of the more partisan of the Alliance faction leaders. As you move through the Nightmare-corrupted area of Val'sharah her tone gradually softens and mistrust gives way to her overwhelming concern for Malfurion's safety.

By the time you confront Xavius and then aid the Temple of Elune she has moved almost entirely toward trusting you and even mentioning her appreciation of you aiding the defenders of Elune's holy grounds despite being a member of the Horde (e.g. acting entirely out of altruism and not the fact that she would have implicit authority over you). Mind all this development is forgotten by the time you arrive at Suramar during the Insurrection arc - but for Val'sharah at least I feel it develops organically and along one's expectations.

[Friendlyimmolation]

You really think you are stronger than her? Even Archimonde couldn't do anything to her. She has a powerful goddess behind her and you have only an artifact weapon. What makes you think you can beat her?
And in your opinion she must respect the person who killed her people in Ashenvale and Stonetalon. The legendary hero you said is the legendary hero of the Horde, the faction which was almost in full war with the Alliance recently and also the conflict started again after the broken shore. Still she decided to work with the Horde as we see in Val'sharah and Suramar because the Legion is more important.
I also don't understand why people don't pay attention to the situation they are in. Cenarius got consumed by the Nightmare, Xavius stole the pillar of creation (Tears of Elune), Ysera got corrupted with a corrupted Tears of Elune and turned to a Nightmare dragon in an instant, Malfurion got captured by Xavius, nearly all defenders of the dream got corrupted and the Emerald Dream had no more protectors, Nightmare was about to consume the whole of Azeroth and people are mad about the "Tyrande is mean to me". What interesting is that at the end of the quest line at Dalaran, she tells the Horde PC that she could not deny the courage he/she showed in Val'sharah. But no one mentions that anywhere.

TL;DR

It is illogical to expect an Alliance leader to be nice toward a Horde PC or vise versa.

It all depends if Elune will get out of bed to help her or whatever, some orc archers beat her in the wolf heart book by using. Her glowyness" as a target, preferably the horde player should have been able to tell her to screw off and then go save malfurion by themselves but alas blizzard seems only interested in slight quest deviation from faction to faction

[Friendlyimmolation]

nd that is exactly the bad writing. They wanted to show that the Night Elves couldn't defend themselves and that Mr.King jumped into action and saved their land. Overall Wolfheart was a terrible book. Some Orc archers hurt Tyrande (which Archimonde couldn't), human became the better race, Maiev became a murderous psycho and the Alliance were enjoying the ceremony in Darnassus while the Night Elves were fighting alone in Ashenvale. Wolfheart was basically Varian development which continued in MoP by showing other races are stupid and incompetent and humans must show them how things actually work.

I was talking with another person about this, we agreed that either the writing is just awful, or the beating that Grom and then later Garrosh gave changed the way night elves fought, and they were caught between old and new ways of warfare and suffered for it, except that was also written terribly.

I actually think that Tyrande should have left the Horde PC in those vines and made a deal with them instead of instantly releasing him/her from it. Perhaps if she knew how arrogant the Horde PC is she would definitely act so.

With how rash Tyrande has been I can't see her thinking far enough ahead to do that, unless its early Tryande from the war of the ancients

[ravenmoon]

I was talking with another person about this, we agreed that either the writing is just awful, or the beating that Grom and then later Garrosh gave changed the way night elves fought, and they were caught between old and new ways of warfare and suffered for it, except that was also written terribly.

or both. Clearly the person who wrote some of those quest lines and the book forgot the earlier stuff they had done.. typical of people who are sloppy and not taking care. If you really loved something, you would remember.. but even if you forgot, you should do your due diligence over.

Also as for power, maybe the power they gave up to defeat the legion explains why they are so weakly shown throughout warcraft = lore reason for it. So you can say both. It is a bit of sloppy writing, because Tyrande in WotA had no tree augmenting her, but the goddess, and yet wolfheart happens, Knaak who writes both, forgetting the character = sloppy, quest writers, likely more interested in the forsaken storyline, just drum up a very cheesy story that makes the horde hero look cool and stupidly imba (pointing at that Kodo chase from splintertree to Mosh'ran). Another explanation could simply be the majority of the weakness is because the night elves are demoralized. People underestimate the affect that Ysera's gift had on the spirit of the night elf people. Malfurion in the nightmare mentions how Elrethe Renferal must be stopped from completing Xavius' plans over Thunderbluff so as to save the spirit of the Tauren people. It is mentioned in the cataclysm NE starting narrative, that Malfurion's return might help rejuvenate the spirits of his people.

they've had the massive trauma of the initial sundering the gift of ysera helped shield them from, and then again the 3rd war, where for all their sacrifice they come off a lot worse - this time no reward from the dragons, they have to do it by themselves. It's a possible explanation to the very poor show. But in actual fact I simply think night elves were neglected until Legion because the focus was on the main storylines of the expansions which have not involved night elves at all. So their roles have been hastily written and failing to capture the original integrity their introduction had. Until Legion ofc.

[chrisisvacant]

You really think you are stronger than her? Even Archimonde couldn't do anything to her. She has a powerful goddess behind her and you have only an artifact weapon. What makes you think you can beat her?
And in your opinion she must respect the person who killed her people in Ashenvale and Stonetalon. The legendary hero you said is the legendary hero of the Horde, the faction which was almost in full war with the Alliance recently and also the conflict started again after the broken shore. Still she decided to work with the Horde as we see in Val'sharah and Suramar because the Legion is more important.
I also don't understand why people don't pay attention to the situation they are in. Cenarius got consumed by the Nightmare, Xavius stole the pillar of creation (Tears of Elune), Ysera got corrupted with a corrupted Tears of Elune and turned to a Nightmare dragon in an instant, Malfurion got captured by Xavius, nearly all defenders of the dream got corrupted and the Emerald Dream had no more protectors, Nightmare was about to consume the whole of Azeroth and people are mad about the "Tyrande is mean to me". What interesting is that at the end of the quest line at Dalaran, she tells the Horde PC that she could not deny the courage he/she showed in Val'sharah. But no one mentions that anywhere.

TL;DR

It is illogical to expect an Alliance leader to be nice toward a Horde PC or vise versa.

You bring up a lot of valid points that are, evidently, resolved as early as Wrath where Alliance and Horde racial leaders work cross-faction. I, personally, don't understand why any of the racial leaders can stand to be in the presence of, ESPECIALLY, the Horde hero. Be that as it may, it is what it is.

But it isn't illogical when thinking from within the confines of the lore/gameplay. Fact is, we do interact with her. And the situation described entailed us bringing her down to a low amount of health, implying we *are* stronger than her. In that case, she would simply not bother with threats, imo. If someone has a gun to your head, do you threaten them?

[chrisisvacant]

I repeat: you are in no way stronger than her. And fighting in that situation which everything literally got corrupted and Malfurion captured, is like listening to Jaina after the Broken Shore event and attack the Horde while Legion is expanding across Azeroth. It doesn't make sense. You work with her and her distrust in you is reasonable but after the Val'sharah event she tells you that she is grateful.

What is not reasonable is Malfurion being so friendly to Horde.

??? What part of the premise are you not understanding? Please, please, please take the time to read and comprehend.

The premise stated involved getting her to 75% and then her talking shit. Simply not going to happen. And if you got her, solo with your artifact and she is impressed with said artifact, then yes you would be strong enough to finish the job.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I would not call that a premise. And I think Horde players need to be less arrogant and understand the situation and stop whining about Tyrande's dialogue even after they changed it.

Again and again I repeat: Your artifact doesn't make you a god. She will easily kill you because she has a goddess behind her back which even protected her from Archimonde while you needed a group of people and powerful characters like Khadgar, Yrel and Grom to fight Archimonde (aside from that blizz showed Archimonde so weak). Your scenario is illogical in every way and I strongly suggest that you read some lore about Night Elves, Tyrande and Elune so you may understand how powerful they are.

Elune having her back has nothing to do with it, Simple orcs with simple wooden bows have beaten her before. Elune is inconsistent.

[chrisisvacant]

I would not call that a premise. And I think Horde players need to be less arrogant and understand the situation and stop whining about Tyrande's dialogue even after they changed it.

Again and again I repeat: Your artifact doesn't make you a god. She will easily kill you because she has a goddess behind her back which even protected her from Archimonde while you needed a group of people and powerful characters like Khadgar, Yrel and Grom to fight Archimonde (aside from that blizz showed Archimonde so weak). Your scenario is illogical in every way and I strongly suggest that you read some lore about Night Elves, Tyrande and Elune so you may understand how powerful they are.

prem·ise
ˈpreməs/
nounLOGIC
1.
a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.
"if the premise is true, then the conclusion must be true"
verb
1.
base an argument, theory, or undertaking on.
"the reforms were premised on our findings"


You don't even know what a premise is, of course you wouldn't call something that.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Seems I must repeat everything I said:
Knaak in WotA: Archimonde couldn't harm Tyrande
Knaak in Wolfheart: some stupid Orc archers hit her

Problem is the storytelling because blizz main goal was Varian's development. The whole Wolfheart was crap that even blizz regret it. Just look at Maiev. They wanted to turn her into a mad murderer but they changed that in Legion

maybe Elune only comes to her aid if demonic energy is near by? Or maybe due the the fact that she was already calling upon elune when the orcs got her she needs to be able to see the attack that is coming. Either way, Tyrande is not invulnerable, no one is.

- - - Updated - - -

not saying the player should attack tyrande, but if they did she might not be able to get elune bubbled.

[MikeBogina]

Knaak in WotA: Archimonde couldn't harm Tyrande
Knaak in Wolfheart: some stupid Orc archers hit her

Malfurion seems to suffer from the same writing, where he doesn't give 2 shits about Tyrande when she's fighting the Horde.

[ravenmoon]

Or they can seek a connection with nature through the Night Elves and now you've unwittingly created a neutral, playable faction of Nightborne that choose a side after their start zone.

oh i wish they'd be neutral and be this independent night elf based group actually behaving the way the night elves of the alliance should have been if they were not hsoe-horned into the alliance.

It's not their fault ofc, blizzard could have still had the night elves play a role in the alliance without becoming such douchebags, but night elf lore and behaviour was not a priority at all, till now - since wow first came out 12 years ago..so not surprised. They could have had a Fandral led faction join the alliance.. but the problem is the moment they did, they stopped been portrayed as very intelligent, veritually immortall beings who've lived for over 10k years, they started behaving like young adults, full of errors, mistakes, sloppy and the go to people to be beaten to show how awesome and bad ass everyone else is.

I 'm hoping Night Elf 2.0 - the broken isle group of nightborne/highborne/night elves will be their own thing - these are remarked to be the oldest lot - so all of them saw before the sundering, when night elves were good and sane, then the fall to the legion and the breaking of the world, should make them the wise community of ancient night elven folk for which faction squabbles seem very petty, Besides none of these night people (elves) interacted with any of the factions till now, so shoudl be removed from all their drama.

Be nice to have pre-sundering based group of night elves written to fit the mould, while the alliance lot can be the noobs and plebs.

[Friendlyimmolation]

if Im correct the night elves are in the Alliance mainly because orcs refuse to condemn Grom because he is a savior to them, while all the nelves saw of him was demon blood.

[Toijin]

Or maybe the storytelling was bad?



I agree that Elune only acts as she wills but there are 3 WotA books and also Stormrage novel that Elune protects Tyrande from very powerful attacks. And there is also Wolfheart which is only Varian and Garrosh Development book by showing that Night Elves are weak and Humans are strong which continued in MoP and received a lot of negative feedback. The book was very bad in many aspects. Evil Maiev, Night Elves which couldn't handle some Magnatuars, party in Darnassus while Tyrande is at war in Ashenvale, the orc archer thing and ...

So I'm sure that Elune will protect her but even if she will not, Tyrande would still beat the player.

eh i think what chrisisvacant means is that in the given example of you taking Tyrande's health to 75%, she would be weaker/be beaten by the PC, because for that make belief scenario, she would not be able to 'talk shit back or threaten the PC character'.

Reality is, whether or not the PC is stronger than Tyrande, who knows, maybe we'll 1 shot Sargeras or some contrived bullcrap and as such be much stronger than Tyrande, or we get stomped by an infernal.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Think I understand all these hates.

Tyrande is a female character and all women must be nice to everything and everyone. So a little coldness means that character is either crazy or a bi*ch.
Tyrande is an Alliance and Alliance must be the nice guys and if an Alliance acts a little hostile he/she is incompetent and an idiot.
Tyrande is a priestess and all priests and priestesses must always be forgiving and merciful and if a priestess shows some distrust to someone who used to kill her people, blizz needs to change that scenario or we riot.

Know your lore. Do the quest lines in Ashenvale and Stonetalon. You are a member of a faction which was in full war with the opposite faction only recently. And the conflict started again after the Broken Shore (must repeat everything every time). Read some books about Warcraft characters and understand their lore. Put your arrogance aside and think logically about the matters.

Tyrande would be justs as horrendously written/ stupid / arrogant/ rushing into battle when she doesn't know what is going on if she was Horde/a guy/ a warrior.