Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[InfiniteCharger]

Funny to hear the comments on this thread for various reasons.

Games are meant to be played and beat. And an MMO is supposed to be built to reward various types of game play from casual to hard core, with raiding being reserved as the hardest content featuring the hardest bosses and thus by definition beating the game. Therefore, it is odd to hear a game developer claim that some folks are TOO hard core, even though they have designed a system that has almost infinite AP (attack power) progression? I mean what is the point of having something if it is unobtainable? On this point, I blame the developers because in the past they balanced the game around hard core folks having obtainable challenges at that level. Now they claim that it is the hard core players fault for trying to be hard core when they designed this infinite AP system. Come on now. This is ridiculous. How silly would it be to have a form of player progression that 99.9% of players can never get to? Why even waste time and resources on something like that? This is where the criticism of Legion being too much like world of diablocraft comes into play. Infinite progression systems were never in WOW before so why is it being introduced now and how is that the players fault if some folks try and progress as far as possible in that system? It is the law of averages. Most people aren't going to overdose on the game, but then again there are always those that do and certainly addiction is not a new concept for WOW.

Then the other thing is hearing most of the folks on this thread who are not doing mythic and/or do not consider themselves hard core worrying about what 1% of the player base does. I am sure that those folks have been pushing the limits long before AP was introduced and if you feel that so much attention is wasted on the 1% why do you care to begin with? Sounds like a contradiction in terms.

[Tharkkun]

This is a stupid statement from Ion. Blizzard is the one that creates the game here and mythic raiding is targeted to a select subset of players. After 10+ years they should have a clue as to what sort of content is going to burn out their players. Its not the responsibility of the players in this instance. The mechanics exist within the game to allow this type of play.

Mythic raiders are not at fault for playing the game the way blizzard intented them to. Had blizzard really not wanted people to get burned out, they would have changed the system so its not so competitive.

Does Blizzard force Mythic raiders to raid 10, 12, 18 hour days to clear it as fast as humanly possible also? Those are the people who are burned out. They have a choice whether to adher to a normal schedule like most guilds or to go fucking insane.

[theyanger]

Does Blizzard force Mythic raiders to raid 10, 12, 18 hour days to clear it as fast as humanly possible also? Those are the people who are burned out. They have a choice whether to adher to a normal schedule like most guilds or to go fucking insane.

These issues have literally nothing to do with raid schedules. No matter what your raid schedule is, you're looking at at least a dozen hours of out of raid playing every week to be able to od the current tier that exists. (Maybe not now, but the previous month or two yes).

[Sansnom]

This is a stupid statement from Ion. Blizzard is the one that creates the game here and mythic raiding is targeted to a select subset of players. After 10+ years they should have a clue as to what sort of content is going to burn out their players.

10+ years. How many players are burning out? Compare to how many are pacing their playtime more slowly?

Its not the responsibility of the players in this instance. The mechanics exist within the game to allow this type of play.

Oh? Remember ICC? They put in limited attempts. People hated it.

Mythic raiders are not at fault for playing the game the way blizzard intented them to.

And which way is this because I do not know and I like to.

Had blizzard really not wanted people to get burned out, they would have changed the system so its not so competitive.

If these players are adults, then they should be responsible for their own action. Who are we or anyone else to tell them to do or not do something?

[iky43210]

10+ years. How many players are burning out? Compare to how many are pacing their playtime more slowly?



Oh? Remember ICC? They put in limited attempts. People hated it.



And which way is this because I do not know and I like to.



If these players are adults, then they should be responsible for their own action. Who are we or anyone else to tell them to do or not do something?

You think companies are not responsible for how people use their system? interesting.

People are not asking for limited attempts on bosses, they're asking to tone down the ridiculous grinding and rng that's everywhere in this expansion

[Sansnom]

You think companies are not responsible for how people use their system? interesting.

You think people should be responsible for other peoples' action? I like hear your reasoning for this.

People are not asking for limited attempts on bosses, they're asking to tone down the ridiculous grinding and rng that's everywhere in this expansion

Does it matter what or how they did it? Blizzard put a limit that directly affected people's ability to raid per week. If there was only X attempts on a boss, would people continue to raid for the remainder of the week? Probably not.

Blizzard put a limit on traits. 54. People aimed for that. If it was 99. Some people would aim for that.

[Osmeric]

Link your armory. Prove me wrong. Unless you spammed like 2000 heroics or hundreds of RBGs, there hasn't even been enough AP in the world available for that to be true. (If you did either of those things, LOL nice job trying to disprove the grind friend).

Most of the AP was from WQs, emissary quests, and raids. I have never done a single RBG in the entire time I have played WoW (which is from before RBGs were added). In this expansion, I have done just one unrated battleground.

You have probably underestimated the amount of AP one can get by doing WQs.

[Spiral Mage]

When a guild leader quits, it causes disorganization in the ranks and usually deals a killing blow. It's how it is.
It's what being a leader means for this kinda thing.

[Halicia]

When a guild leader quits, it causes disorganization in the ranks and usually deals a killing blow. It's how it is.
It's what being a leader means for this kinda thing.

Not even quit.

When a guild leader reduces their playtime, people start freaking out and thinking the sky is falling. The status & quality of the officer core does little to deflect the damage from this.

[iky43210]

You think people should be responsible for other peoples' action? I like hear your reasoning for this.



Does it matter what or how they did it? Blizzard put a limit that directly affected people's ability to raid per week. If there was only X attempts on a boss, would people continue to raid for the remainder of the week? Probably not.

Blizzard put a limit on traits. 54. People aimed for that. If it was 99. Some people would aim for that.

maybe if you answer mine first.

And yes the implementation methods matters, in what world does it not. AK IS their way of trying to put a softcap, except it wasn't steep enough and they even admitted to this once people hit 25 AK.

[Jngizu]

You think companies are not responsible for how people use their system? interesting.

That's actually a very dangerous line of thought. It eventually leads to controlling what people can and cannot do. I grew up around a lot of drug addicts, but I never even tried smoking weed because I had absolutely no interest in it. All those friends, they all admitted it was their fault, and their lack of self-control.

I remember at the beginning of Legion, there were 2 guys going crazy, doing every WQ, running dungeons constantly, and sleeping like 5h max a day. At the time, I told them to be careful or they were going to burnout. They laughed at me. Guess what? 2 weeks after killing M Xavius, they stopped playing. On the other hand, I played at my own pace, never chained run MoS, and got 54 pts for NH.

Who should be blamed here? Blizzard or those two guys for not controlling themselves? Should we blame girls that dress sexy when they get raped (taking it far I know but that's where it leads at some point)?

[Rogalicus]

On the other hand, I played at my own pace, never chained run MoS, and got 54 pts for NH.

Great story, now try to max out at least two specs as any pure DPS have done.

Who should be blamed here? Blizzard or those two guys for not controlling themselves? Should we blame girls that dress sexy when they get raped (taking it far I know but that's where it leads at some point)?

But that's what people here are doing. 'It's her fault for baiting rapists with sexy dress. I'm wearing paranja and never was raped.'.

[Tripax]

You think companies are not responsible for how people use their system? interesting.

I also blame the bicycle manufacturer if someone decides to drive their bike untill death by exhaustion.

[Eapoe]

I also blame the bicycle manufacturer if someone decides to drive their bike untill death by exhaustion.

Man, these analogies are so stupid and far from a good comparison it's laughable.

[rda]

I also blame the bicycle manufacturer if someone decides to drive their bike untill death by exhaustion.

Systems can be designed in different ways.

Design them one way, you incentivize one thing. Design another way, incentivize another thing.

WoW devs want you to stay subbed and pay yet they can't / won't do enough content to have that happen naturally (they used to be able to do more of it before, but times change). So they take whatever content you are interested in and put a big grind between that content and yourself. They are doing it completely willingly and knowingly. Then this backfires in that people see through the BS (they want to do content X yet they have to do tons of content Y just because Blizzard put a wall there so they keep subbing and paying for longer). That's all there is to it.

Jabs at raiders for being too willing to grind are somewhat deserved but ultimately myopic. That's not the main issue here, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

[Deleted]

He said himself that the nighthold is tuned for people with 54 traits so how can he then blame players for grinding to get those traits in time? The jump from trilliax mythic to krosus mythic is very high dps/healing wise (mechanically it's very easy ofc) so what does he expect the guilds who haven't grinded 54 traits to do?Wait 10 weeks worth of resets to get the remaining traits they need from the AP drops off the heroic bosses?

Agent Smith: "Why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you do it? Why get up? Why keep fighting? Do you believe you’re fighting for something? For more than your survival? Can you tell me what it is? Do you even know? Is it freedom? Or truth? Perhaps peace? Yes? No? Could it be for love? Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception. The temporary constructs of a feeble human intellect trying desperately to justify an existence that is without meaning or purpose. And all of them as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as love. You must be able to see it, Mr. Anderson. You must know it by now. You can’t win. It’s pointless to keep fighting. Why, Mr. Anderson? Why? Why do you persist?"

Neo: "Because I choose to."

Be like Neo. Stop blaming the game for your obvious lack of self-restrain.

[Isoge]

I get what this dude is saying, but blaming it on the guild leader only is just wrong. Because of the way the mythic raids are tuned, people are actually forced to grind endlessly to be able to actually perform well enough to kill the bosses. If anything, the bosses with the hard dps checks are proof of this. You link me one guild where the players are not 50+ in artifact level that have actually made some decent progress into NH (and I am not talking about the first three bosses, those are just filler in my opinion due to the easy mechanics). Of course a guild master would want you to do your best to be able to perform at your best when they are progressing.

And NOBODY is forcing you to be in a hardcore raiding guild. The guild leader of such a guild expects anyone that is interested in joining such a guild to have the same mindset as him. You don't apply to a hardcore raiding guild and, when the GM says that he expects you to do everything you can to do well on progression, you say "no, I don't want to burn out too quickly". No, if that is your mindset, you get the f**k out of that guild because that is not where you belong. The guild you should be applying to instead should be the "hello kitty casual friends guild" because they obviously have the same mindset as you. And nobody in a hardcore guild wants to carry that one person that didn't want to get burnt out and instead does 14.5% less damage.

Yes, it is the guild leaders fault because he made rule of what everybody in that guild was thinking, which basically is "do everything you can to be able to perform the best that you can". But it is Blizzard's fault for creating this system forcing players to do this in order to progress on the mythic raids. And looking at logs and statistics on wowprogress, ANY guild that has done remotely good on mythic NH has had the majority of the players at level 50+ on their artifact weapon, with most of them at 54.

And the fact that people compare mythic progression to rape is just absurd. Because this is definitely not the case of blizzard getting raped by players not being able to control themselves. This is blizzard demanding high standards, and when people actually qualify for those high standards blizzard goes and blames the guys for living up the ridiculous standards blizz themselves demanded in the first place and blames the leaders for putting this strain on their players.

The whole AP system is flawed, the legendary system is idiotic, and Ion's statements are just as batshit as he is at designing this game.

And what is Ion's solution to all of this? Well easy enough, it is to demand an even higher degree of grinding and farming to make sure that you don't live up to his expectations.

In the end, this is nobody's fault. Blizzard put this system into place. Hardcore guilds decide that they should do this since it is fully doable. Players thinking about min/max-ing their characters decide to do this because they find the grind worth the time. And players that do get burned out have only themselves to blame for doing that if they find that too hard to do but still do it.

Ion's leader-blaming is just wrong in the end, and like many people have said before; it is just blizzard's typical way of pushing the responsibility onto someone else and not wanting to criticize their own system because in their eyes, everything they do is golden and if something is wrong, it is the players fault for not using the system the way blizz wanted them to in an ideal world.

[Jngizu]

Great story, now try to max out at least two specs as any pure DPS have done.


But that's what people here are doing. 'It's her fault for baiting rapists with sexy dress. I'm wearing paranja and never was raped.'.

At least two specs lol? Unless you raid in a top 20 guild, no one will ask you that, and if they did, well it proves Ion's point about guild leaders. Most DPS specs only maxed one, because it wasn't needed to max two.

And for the second one, you're just wrong. In this case Blizzard is the sexy girl. Some guys decided to rape her, and the vast majority decided to treat her with respect (again, extreme comparison made for shock value).

But no matter what, there's no point discussing with people like you since you don't bring any solution. Blizzard tried both ways in Legion already. Guess what? Both times, hardcore raiders complained. EN was too easy because top guilds farmed AP way too much, and NH was hard because Blizzard realized that those guys will play insane amounts, even if it's unhealthy. So, they tuned the raid for 54 points on release. Guess what? Every top guild loved the raid but hated the grind. You can't create a system that satisfy those players. There's no middle ground with people like that. Their way of playing is all or nothing. The biggest proof of that is that they could just join slower guilds, but no, if they don't have the time for that type of progression raiding, they just quit the game. They talk about challenge, but the reality is, they care way more about being first than killing bosses.

And NOBODY is forcing you to be in a hardcore raiding guild. The guild leader of such a guild expects anyone that is interested in joining such a guild to have the same mindset as him. You don't apply to a hardcore raiding guild and, when the GM says that he expects you to do everything you can to do well on progression, you say "no, I don't want to burn out too quickly". No, if that is your mindset, you get the f**k out of that guild because that is not where you belong. The guild you should be applying for instead should be the "hello kitty casual friends guild" because they obviously have the same mindset as you. And nobody in a hardcore guild wants to carry that one person that didn't want to get burnt out and instead does 14.5% less damage.

Yes, it is the guild leaders fault because he made rule of what everybody in that guild was thinking, which basically is "do everything you can to be able to perform the best that you can". But it is Blizzard's fault for creating this system forcing players to do this in order to progress on the mythic raids. And looking at logs and statistics on wowprogress, ANY guild that has done remotely good on mythic NH has had the majority of the players at level 50+ on their artifact weapon, with most of them at 54.

The problem, is every guild outside of the top 100 thinking they should be like Serenity, forcing players to grind endlessly, when at their level, their biggest issues are players skills, not gear or any number of traits. It goes that way for every game, unless you're a the top, doesn't matter what you play as long as you play it well.

And the fact that people compare mythic progression to rape is just absurd. Because this is definitely not the case of blizzard getting raped by players not being able to control themselves. This is blizzard demanding high standards, and when people actually qualify for those high standards blizzard goes and blames the guys for living up the ridiculous standards blizz themselves demanded in the first place and blames the leaders for putting this strain on their players.

No, those players are the ones who asked for high standards after they found EN to be too easy. Now they complain that Blizzard gave them what they asked for. Don't you see the irony here?

[MoanaLisa]

99% of mythic guilds start mythic progress as soon as they clear heroic regardless of the time frame. I've never been in a mythic (or heroic depending on the xpac) guild who have said "Well we've cleared heroic but we said we going to start mythic in three weeks time so we'll just continue clearing heroic". Doesn't work that way.

I get that. It's still a choice that people make. Unlike Walmart at Xmas though, there's really no need for most guilds to try and crowd through the door first thing on Black Friday. There's no sale; no out-of-stock. It will all be there for them when they're ready to start.

If the guild is not in the chase for world or realm first they can wait if they like. I'm aware that it doesn't happen. But no one is forcing them either.

[Deleted]

Are you guys really bitching about the need to have a lv 54 weapon for mythic? Lets be real. Its almost impossible to not have lv 54 at this point, if you played your chars aktiv instead of playing 10 alts.