Why was this meta considered stale?

[Pantalaimon]

Since the rotation and expansion aren't too far out (hopefully) I thought I'd reflect on what this meta really brought for the past many months.

One of the comments I've seen throughout this meta was how stale it was. So I thought I'd ask why it was worthy of this label. Imo, there have been many metas prior to this one that have been much staler, some with literally only two options for consistent high ladder decks (talking rank 5 to low legend).

In this meta we saw

Warrior: Pirate and Dragon

Shaman: Jade (Basically cannibalized the old midrange & aggro decks)

Priest: Dragon & Reno

Warlock: Reno

Mage: Reno

Rogue: Miracle

Druid: Jade & a select few Egg Druids

I feel that is pretty damn good for a "stale" meta. Almost every class had a valid deck. In this meta you also saw very decent and viable options for every general deck archtype; Reno Warlock for control, Pirate for aggro, Miracle for combo, and Jade Shaman for midrange/tempo. I don't think we've had very many, if any, metas that provided you at least one solid choice for every archtype in the same meta.

With this in mind I ask again, why was this meta stale exactly?

[Faltemer]

Two reasons mostly. The complete and utter lack of basically any paladin or hunter across all ranks really hurts. Plus it was primarily just two deck types battling out, even though there were 6 casses used (Reno vs Pirate). Jade druid sees alright play, but very little comapred to the big hitters and I have yet to see 1 egg druid deck. So the staleness mostly comes from the fact that while there are technically several high tier decks, they mostly come down to one very basic and polarizing mechanic or the other. You are either rushing them down super quick, or trying to play various versions of a value game.

Im guessing when the nerfs hit things will change fairly quickly actually. Jade decks will quickly become much more powerful, which will mean reno decks will shift away from early game contesting cards and start teching in late game win conditions. Im thinking when this occurs shaman jade will actually fare the worst and we will see rogue and druid (With druid likely being the best) emerge as better versions of the deck.

[Deleted]

I think it is because looks can be deceiving. Yes, every class had a viable deck but how much difference did these decks actually have? Well most highlander decks, aka reno decks, play very similarly. Basically you had reno this and reno that, but in the end it's all just reno. For example, when you saw a warlock or a mage, you pretty much knew 9/10 time it was highlander. The next culprit was undoubtedly the pirates and notice I said pirates, not aggro. It was so fast that matches were decided on turns 2-3, and even if you drew phenomenally, you were still likely to lose, because it had to real counters. In essence, they had to draw really badly and you had to draw really well.

The worst effect in all this was that there was very little chance to think outside the box; the few decks in the meta were so strong and fast that vast amounts of cards were just useless, because likely you would never, ever get around to playing them. Sure, some of us have been doing it anyway but it's been a really painful experience.

Just look at the current state of the game. We have thousands of cards but most of them are not viable, even if they were good and interesting cards. The meta has been bottlenecked to essentially jades, pirates, and reno, and despite the game being several years old we have less viable cards in the meta than we had in vanilla. We'll see what happens when the next expansion hits but I think the wild / standard separation has failed. It was meant to improve diversity and design but we are more restrained then ever before.

That is the one thing I think a slower meta does, because games are longer you have more room in deck building and you get to experiment a lot more. Even if your deck is not top tier, you will still see more diversity and you actually get to play the deck, instead of conceding on turn 4 because there is no longer any way to recover.

[Dilbon]

If there are only pirates, jade shit and Kazakus then it's pretty lame. And stale too.

[Nikkaszal]

To be fair, people say "stale meta" every single season, without fail.

[FobManX]

Its nothing but Shaman, Warrior, or some variation of Reno deck that all essentially play out the same way.

So in other words, you either have:

1. Aggro vs. Aggro, in which whoever is ahead on board by turn 3 pretty much always wins. In fact most games are over by turn 2.

2. Aggro vs. Reno, in which every game is "does he have Reno or doesn't he?" If the Reno player has Reno by 6, he wins. If not, he loses.

3. Reno vs. Reno, which are just snoozefests to play and often come down to just Brann + Kazakkus RNG.

[Pantalaimon]

Two reasons mostly. The complete and utter lack of basically any paladin or hunter across all ranks really hurts. Plus it was primarily just two deck types battling out, even though there were 6 casses used (Reno vs Pirate). Jade druid sees alright play, but very little comapred to the big hitters and I have yet to see 1 egg druid deck. So the staleness mostly comes from the fact that while there are technically several high tier decks, they mostly come down to one very basic and polarizing mechanic or the other. You are either rushing them down super quick, or trying to play various versions of a value game.

Fair observation. Although, when his this not been the case during any meta?

Patron Warrior meta? Either kill the guy with your own patrons or kill them with aggro before they get the combo. Deathrattle Undertaker Hunter? Kill the warriors & priests before they drop too many belchers & healbots and you run out of steam. Pre-Kazakus Reno decks? Kill the other guy with aggro or Tempo Mage before they draw into Reno.

I can't think of a meta where this pretty much wasn't what the entire game boiled down to in ranked, this meta just seems to get the most recent targetted hate for some reason.

[purebalance]

I am going to be so glad to see the death of most of those decks. Pirates are really only losing Findley if they used it(most did, but it wasn't 100% necessary and really only on warrior/some shaman variants). I'm mostly glad that Renolock is losing almost every staple card from it as it was one of the most skill-less decks out there: Stall, stall, stall, get combo in hand, get other player to 20, win.

[Blueobelisk]

Anyone who used the word stale doesn't know what the word means. It's not stale at all. In fact, HS has more variety than ever: you get your choice of getting your health beat down by aggro and not have to worry about late game, to get run over by Jades and not have to worry about saving removal since anything after Jade counters reach 9 becomes pure hell, or to get outvalued, outlived, and outtempoed by Reno decks at the same time.

[Mahourai]

I am going to be so glad to see the death of most of those decks. Pirates are really only losing Findley if they used it(most did, but it wasn't 100% necessary and really only on warrior/some shaman variants). I'm mostly glad that Renolock is losing almost every staple card from it as it was one of the most skill-less decks out there: Stall, stall, stall, get combo in hand, get other player to 20, win.

Singleton decks like Reno Warlock are probably (definitely) the most skill-testing decks in the format.

[purebalance]

Singleton decks like Reno Warlock are probably (definitely) the most skill-testing decks in the format.

Hoping that was sarcasm as Renolock is full of healing and taunt and with the draw mechanic to get the several win conditions the deck has much less with discover cards allowing you to be more flexible anyway. They are not even remotely skilled.

[Mahourai]

Hoping that was sarcasm

Hearthstone decks don't have a terribly high skillcap in general but the value-oriented singleton decks are without a doubt the hardest to play. Their competition is curvey aggro and midrange decks like Shaman, Warrior or Dragon Priest where you basically just play what's available. Renolock, on the other hand, has serious questions almost every turn about the value of hero powering vs playing cards in hand, when to play specific answers because you can never draw another copy of them, and even tougher stuff like whether it's worth throwing away the combo victory to do PO+Shadowflame and save yourself then try to win through a backup win condition.

Have you ever actually played these decks, or are you just mad from losing to them?

[Kralljin]

One of the issues is how strong Aggro decks have become.

Previously when Face Hunter was the Top Tier Aggro deck, he could kill you very fast, but if you had some heals and managed to gain board presence, you usually won the game.

The current Toptier Aggro decks just don't work that way, taking board control in these matches is so damn hard, if i drop a Jinyu Waterspeaker on Turn 4, it just does shit sometimes because i heal for 6 while my enemy has 10+ Damage on Board + Weapon.

Minions in Pirate Warrior / Shaman are so much more resilient than what we've previously seen from Aggro decks.


Next thing:

The Gang Idea, makes you feel less playing against 9 potential classes but rather 3.

Oh a slow Jade Shaman, so much different from Jade Druid.
Reno / Kazakus Decks, total different type of cards / strategy happening there.
Handbuff Decks, buff hand, play overbuffed minions.

I think the Tri Class cards weren't a bad idea, but that these "Gang" Decks have such a similiar approach / strategy makes the game feel very stale.

[Pantalaimon]

Hoping that was sarcasm as Renolock is full of healing and taunt and with the draw mechanic to get the several win conditions the deck has much less with discover cards allowing you to be more flexible anyway. They are not even remotely skilled.

Care to argue for a deck that supposedly takes great skill to play?

This isn't chess. This is a VERY simple card game compared to other physical card games that have been out there for awhile. Now, of course I'm no perfect player at high legend consistently, but the forethought required to do fairly well at the game with a given deck isn't that taxing on the player.

The only deck I can think of off the top of my head that required some "skill" was Patron Warrior, & that was only due to having to accurately perform the simple addition quickly to see if your spells actually gave you correct lethal with your 1-2 frothings.

[Deleted]

The only deck I can think of off the top of my head that required some "skill" was Patron Warrior, & that was only due to having to accurately perform the simple addition quickly to see if your spells actually gave you correct lethal with your 1-2 frothings.

I remembering taking a crack at patron at the very end, like a week before they nerfed it. I went 12-3 on one sitting, and keep in mind, this is a) me... who is not a great player to begin with and b) someone who had never played the deck before. So no, patron took almost no skill at all. Funny enough, two of those three loses were simply due to me accidentally roping because I wasn't used to playing the combo fast enough.

[Mahourai]

Patron was certainly more skill-intensive than most decks, but who can dispute rigorous analysis like "One day I picked the strongest deck in the format up and won some games with it, therefore it takes no skill at all". Woof.

[Bapestar]

To be fair, people say "stale meta" every single season, without fail.

The meta has been getting worse in terms of variety. But this issue has always plagued hs.

- - - Updated - - -

I remembering taking a crack at patron at the very end, like a week before they nerfed it. I went 12-3 on one sitting, and keep in mind, this is a) me... who is not a great player to begin with and b) someone who had never played the deck before. So no, patron took almost no skill at all. Funny enough, two of those three loses were simply due to me accidentally roping because I wasn't used to playing the combo fast enough.

What? Yes it did, streamers misplayed often. It was very easy to make mistakes. Not saying it took mad skill, but it definitely took some skill.

[Deleted]

Patron was certainly more skill-intensive than most decks, but who can dispute rigorous analysis like "One day I picked the strongest deck in the format up and won some games with it, therefore it takes no skill at all". Woof.

Said the tired voice of Capt. Ad Hominem. The irony... Patron was strong because it had an OP combo that was near impossible to stop, not because it took skill to pilot.

What? Yes it did, streamers misplayed often. It was very easy to make mistakes. Not saying it took mad skill, but it definitely took some skill.

Sure, the same way it takes skill to not hero power yourself while you have auchenai on board. Seen plenty of streamers mess that up as well.

[PPN]

In your description i see basicly:

Jade, Dragon, Pirate, Reno...everything that doesnt go well with one of these conditions is garbage.

[Irian]

There was no room for innovation. The current decks are so insanely good at what they do that you can't really tech or adjust your strategy.

Combine that with the fact that, bar reno decks (which are far less efficient and far more expensive to play than pirate, and don't really even deal with pirate as well as it should) every deck in the current meta feels tribey, stale and boring. Games are decided in the first three turns, and I would say it feels paper-scissors-rocky if it weren't for the fact that Pirate is basically both paper and scissors at the same time.