Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[arcaneshot]

I'm not the lead dev or on the dev team... it's not my job to come up with solutions. However, a really simple solution in my mind is to build upon/improve the personal loot system while adding bad luck protection. After all, trading loot/master loot is what enables split raiding to work. I know some people will cry about not being able to trade, but if you are guaranteed to get the item (BLP) if you kill the boss enough times (let's say 20 for s & gs), is it really that bad? This game shouldn't be primarily about loot anyway and it's the trading (or master looting, either way) that causes the problem. If some infantile person wants to quit over not being able to beg for another person's loot, I think the community is frankly better off.

This is how everyone knows you DIDN'T think this through enough.

[MoanaLisa]

Right now is a minority thing, i agree, in fact, i think it's a dying minority. But it was not like that in the past, as i said, high-end raiding has always been the minority. Although it's hard to consider if 600.000 or even 200.000 is a minority when we don't know how many active players the game has.

There weren't five million people raiding during BC. There weren't six million people raiding during Wrath.

[IceMan1763]

This is how everyone knows you DIDN'T think this through enough.

Great reasoning as to why it wouldn't work. Fanboi some more.

[theyanger]

At least two specs lol? Unless you raid in a top 20 guild, no one will ask you that, and if they did, well it proves Ion's point about guild leaders. Most DPS specs only maxed one, because it wasn't needed to max two.

And for the second one, you're just wrong. In this case Blizzard is the sexy girl. Some guys decided to rape her, and the vast majority decided to treat her with respect (again, extreme comparison made for shock value).

But no matter what, there's no point discussing with people like you since you don't bring any solution. Blizzard tried both ways in Legion already. Guess what? Both times, hardcore raiders complained. EN was too easy because top guilds farmed AP way too much, and NH was hard because Blizzard realized that those guys will play insane amounts, even if it's unhealthy. So, they tuned the raid for 54 points on release. Guess what? Every top guild loved the raid but hated the grind. You can't create a system that satisfy those players. There's no middle ground with people like that. Their way of playing is all or nothing. The biggest proof of that is that they could just join slower guilds, but no, if they don't have the time for that type of progression raiding, they just quit the game. They talk about challenge, but the reality is, they care way more about being first than killing bosses.




The problem, is every guild outside of the top 100 thinking they should be like Serenity, forcing players to grind endlessly, when at their level, their biggest issues are players skills, not gear or any number of traits. It goes that way for every game, unless you're a the top, doesn't matter what you play as long as you play it well.



No, those players are the ones who asked for high standards after they found EN to be too easy. Now they complain that Blizzard gave them what they asked for. Don't you see the irony here?

EN was trivial because the bosses were tuned around heroic dungeon gear and instead Mythic + gear was forging up to like 20 ilevels higher than that or more.

Artifact Power meant literally nothing in that zone, because it was trivial to be low/mid 20s and a TON of work to be just a few points higher (since requirements were exponential and the AK gains were actually what prevented you from getting anywhere). Those points meant very little because most people's Artifact trait value plateaus in the mid 20s until you hit 35, and the 35 push was ToV mythic not EN (It wasn't possible to be 35 before EN). 35-54 being more linear and grindy while AK just STOPPED is what caused this crap. Prior to TOV (35 push) and NH (54 push) there was actually almost no benefit to absurd grinding.

But please, continue to talk about subjects you clearly don't even understand the arguments around.

[Doombringer]

He's not wrong. Bleeding-edge raiders consume content so quickly, it might as well not even exist.

If you're running multiple alts and splitting raids and clamoring for a world first... that's your GL's choice and your own choice for following along. It's there to do, but is it normal or "healthy"? No.

[Deleted]

World 1st guilds will go to any lengths to grind the AP, with insane requirements. Anything to get an edge on their competition. That's their perogative. I don't like it, but that's probably why I wouldn't play in such a guild (that and I suck, haha). Split runs AND AP grind... plus the randomness of legendaries... there is just too much for them to handle and I honestly don't blame them for saying "fuck it, it's not worth it" after this point. Even WF raiders can only do so much.

I would've liked it if the AP grind was more... finite. The 54 traits, I managed it on my main spec, now I'm slowly working on an off spec, but knowing the endless grind will resume in 7.2 makes me feel it's not worth the stress... I'm not going to push myself too much, I do a few M+ every week but I don't have unlimited time. Making it too daunting will probably put a lot of people off, IMO.

[Greylan]

It's less the guild leader and more the pressure from those raid members who did no life it to 54. Still, by now it's not hard to be at 54 unless you had to suddenly change spec or characters.

[Emerald Archer]

You guys getting mad at Ion about this, what would you rather? All content designed for bleeding edge mythic raiders? Screw that. I'd rather content was designed for more than just the 0.1%. Fact is, it is the guild leaders fault for burnout, but it is his choice, there isn't anything wrong with it. It's what they had to do to compete with other guild leaders who chose to do the same etc.

Plain and simple, it IS the Guild leaders fault, but it doesn't make it the wrong decision or a bad thing that they did. It's just how it is because the game isn't designed around them.

And that is OK.

[IceMan1763]

You guys getting mad at Ion about this, what would you rather? All content designed for bleeding edge mythic raiders? Screw that. I'd rather content was designed for more than just the 0.1%. Fact is, it is the guild leaders fault for burnout, but it is his choice, there isn't anything wrong with it. It's what they had to do to compete with other guild leaders who chose to do the same etc.

Plain and simple, it IS the Guild leaders fault, but it doesn't make it the wrong decision or a bad thing that they did. It's just how it is because the game isn't designed around them.

And that is OK.

If you would ask the mythic raiders themselves, they would probably say they want a more level playing field. For example, a weekly rolling cap set for AP.

This would have zero affect on the average player. Another solution which would've had zero affect on the average player would be to turn off paragon traits for Mythic raids and slowly turn them on.

People like you who excuse bad design at every turn and join with Ion in blaming guild leaders for playing the game that is laid before them (which they have ZERO input in since the devs DO NOT LISTEN TO FEEDBACK) are BAD for the game. Demand MORE from these devs, not less.

[cFortyfive]

Screw that

Screw your no alternative bullshit.

This would have zero affect on the average player. Another solution which would've had zero affect on the average player would be to turn off paragon traits for Mythic raids and slowly turn them on.

At least it's very obvious this threads just goes around the same retarded circle. Next up the 100k ap per hour farming retards will be back in full force claiming it would have significant impact on their play.

[Deleted]

The key question is what we are competing on?

Raiders want to compete on raiding.

Blizzard want raiders to compete on grinding first and foremost and only then on raiding - that's in their design. They want raiders to compete on grinding because that takes a lot of time and time brings Blizzard money. They don't much care about what raiders want - at least not until they start leaving.

(Same for PVPers, just in case, they are in a similar position to raiders. Thank Blizzard's great design.)

That's all there is to it.

Well if you don't want to insanely grind there are other options. Stop caring about the game and forget about it or go more casual, asume you will not be the new Method and enjoy the game without forcing yourself to do nothing you don't want to do. The raids won't disapear, you will see the content, even in mythic, even in bad servers.

Obviously AP, gear, raiding mats, etc are there to make you play longer, having an objective and geting something every game sesion. Obviously they want you to stay subed and it is good to have things to do in your sub time.

[KaPe]

This would have zero affect on the average player. Another solution which would've had zero affect on the average player would be to turn off paragon traits for Mythic raids and slowly turn them on.

Hell, this would even solve two other issues. Allow proper balancing without different raids having different damage/health bonuses *and* serve as a convenient nerf mechanic that could be turned on at any time. Perhaps even allow to use offspecs without being cripple by lack of extra traits. Sure, it still wouldn't deal with the legendary rng, but it would be a start.

I suppose the only downside would be individual characters becoming 14.5% weaker (or less, if they allowed 35 traits) when going from Heroic to Mythic, but it would hardly be gamebreaking.

[theyanger]

He's not wrong. Bleeding-edge raiders consume content so quickly, it might as well not even exist.

If you're running multiple alts and splitting raids and clamoring for a world first... that's your GL's choice and your own choice for following along. It's there to do, but is it normal or "healthy"? No.

People in this thread are really showing their tism lately. NONE OF THIS GRIND IS WORLD FIRST RACE EXCLUSIVE.

You literally cannot be a mythic guild without grinding your fucking ass off this tier. World 1000 guilds.

[KaPe]

People in this thread are really showing their tism lately. NONE OF THIS GRIND IS WORLD FIRST RACE EXCLUSIVE.

You literally cannot be a mythic guild without grinding your fucking ass off this tier. World 1000 guilds.

Cue the usual "but you can reach 54 with totally casual play" - which conveniently ignores the fact that you have to do this "casual play" on top of the regular raiding hours. Effectively doubling the amount of time it takes to raid on mythic level.

[theyanger]

You guys getting mad at Ion about this, what would you rather? All content designed for bleeding edge mythic raiders? Screw that. I'd rather content was designed for more than just the 0.1%. Fact is, it is the guild leaders fault for burnout, but it is his choice, there isn't anything wrong with it. It's what they had to do to compete with other guild leaders who chose to do the same etc.

Plain and simple, it IS the Guild leaders fault, but it doesn't make it the wrong decision or a bad thing that they did. It's just how it is because the game isn't designed around them.

And that is OK.

Um, this content is even worse for non-bleeding edge. you get that right? Casual guilds have to poopsock more this tier than bleeding edge guilds did for most previous tiers. Bleeding edge had to double that shit.

[IceMan1763]

Hell, this would even solve two other issues. Allow proper balancing without different raids having different damage/health bonuses *and* serve as a convenient nerf mechanic that could be turned on at any time. Perhaps even allow to use offspecs without being cripple by lack of extra traits. Sure, it still wouldn't deal with the legendary rng, but it would be a start.

I suppose the only downside would be individual characters becoming 14.5% weaker (or less, if they allowed 35 traits) when going from Heroic to Mythic, but it would hardly be gamebreaking.

Parses might be lower in Mythic under that scenario but it would be more fairly tuned.

Still, I think a weekly rolling cap should've been in place from the start. Considering his history I can't believe Ion:

1) Saw no need for a cap for AP
2) Saw no need for a cap on M+ loot
3) Couldn't see the folly of RNG legendaries

It's baffling, honestly. This guy is supposed to be a lawyer? Where was his brain when he and his team were making those decisions?

[Emerald Archer]

If you would ask the mythic raiders themselves, they would probably say they want a more level playing field. For example, a weekly rolling cap set for AP.

This would have zero affect on the average player. Another solution which would've had zero affect on the average player would be to turn off paragon traits for Mythic raids and slowly turn them on.

People like you who excuse bad design at every turn and join with Ion in blaming guild leaders for playing the game that is laid before them (which they have ZERO input in since the devs DO NOT LISTEN TO FEEDBACK) are BAD for the game. Demand MORE from these devs, not less.

I'm not saying it isn't bad design, it IS bad design, but that doesn't make the guild leaders without blame. It doesn't have to be all 1 persons fault. You get that right? There are so many solutions, it's a shit system. But that does not mean that all guild leaders are without fault.

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Um, this content is even worse for non-bleeding edge. you get that right? Casual guilds have to poopsock more this tier than bleeding edge guilds did for most previous tiers. Bleeding edge had to double that shit.

They don't really, it's just another case of guild leaders expecting too much, idiot guild leaders saying "okay guys 50 traits for heroic NH" When in reality, you don't need over 40.

"Casual guilds" are what? normal/heroic raiders? Normal doesn't need over 35 (which is a joke to get now) and heroic doesn't need over 40.

Or are you talking about casual mythic raiding guilds? You don't need over 50 traits in mythic until star augur.

[Deleted]

I see a lot of people in this thread failing to acknowledge (along with blizzard mind you, they give more spotlight to random heartstone tournaments) how much top guilds impact rest of raiders. Sure, many raiders will admit that they are not as good as top ones as a player, but many will put in as much effort in to character power, as your world first contenders. The fight tactics, gearing strategies, bis sets, talent choices, raid compositions... All that filters down and is used by most of high end raiders, in one way or another.

Not that many many mythic raiders will look at their character and say "You know, I could be better and stronger, but I don't want to. I'm fine with being mediocre."

WoW was always apart from Asian mmos, where grind was the end game. Unreachable high levels, gear upgrades that can fail and destroy the item, resets etc. In WoW there was always a limit. You killed the bosses you can kill, and work on the ones you did not. This expansion the line separating WoW from random dozen for a dime mmos is not just thin, it's so thin that we left it behind without noticing.

[Pockitt]

What grind? the 8days of gametime 4 months in?
That's not a lot, that's not even a grind at all.
If players can't even manage to get that done, they aren't competitive at all.
Sure thing, you need to play more than before, but why wouldn't you reward players that are more "competitive" than you and play "more" and invest "more work"?

The lockout system was hindering for many players.. and they don't want it back. And the lockout system is the only reason why you had to play less. You couldn't advance after farming old content once. WoW ended after ~4h of playtime a week.

No it wasn't...? What made the game tedious was the long content droughts. The lockout system was never an issue. You logged on every reset, cleared raids, maxed your valor point cap, and moved on to stuff with alts and farming transmog/mounts. The lockout system gave you the FREEDOM to do other stuff with different characters without ever feeling like you were neglecting your main because you weren't spending 5 hours a day doing MoS runs. With AP farming, it's almost impossible to do any of that. And if you think 8 days of total gametime is all it takes right now then you REALLY don't know what you're talking about.

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(who are you competing against anyhow?)

If that's how you're going to preface your response then you're not worth responding to, sorry.

[Deleted]

Yeah but... he's right though, it is the GM's fault if they burnout.