Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Emerald Archer]

What grind? the 8days of gametime 4 months in?
That's not a lot, that's not even a grind at all.
If players can't even manage to get that done, they aren't competitive at all.
Sure thing, you need to play more than before, but why wouldn't you reward players that are more "competitive" than you and play "more" and invest "more work"?

The lockout system was hindering for many players.. and they don't want it back. And the lockout system is the only reason why you had to play less. You couldn't advance after farming old content once. WoW ended after ~4h of playtime a week.

Not for or against your reasoning, but just some facts, 1-54 is 218 +10 runs. Of actual dungeon time, if you were to do that all in MoS carry groups, that would be 3 an hour. Requiring 72hrs to get the 54 levels.

Say you only want to play 4hrs a day, which is still a lot. That's 18 days to get 54 traits, without going full no life. But then there's times to get the keys, so probably around 24 days.

Then you have to consider it won't always be MoS 10, often 7-9 aswell, so you'd probably need to do around 240 runs. So that's 80hrs, taking 20 days, but realistically 26ish if you played 4hrs a day, including the time to get the carry key.

It really isn't that much of a grind on paper, it'll probably drive you crazy doing that much of the same M+. But if you follow that, you'll have it done in a month. Start to finish.

[Coffeexbean]

Im surprised that people have full artifacts 54 traits right now.. thought wed be getting a golden trait like each tier and wouldnt finish until the end of the expansion.. which would have been fine since ya know were supposed to play for 2 years not grind it in a month

[Deleted]

Im surprised that people have full artifacts 54 traits right now.. thought wed be getting a golden trait like each tier and wouldnt finish until the end of the expansion.. which would have been fine since ya know were supposed to play for 2 years not grind it in a month

Never underestimate the power of nolifers

[MoanaLisa]

You literally cannot be a mythic guild without grinding your fucking ass off this tier. World 1000 guilds.

That's more a comment on just how bad things are in raiding guilds than a comment on anything to do with the design. I'm sure from inside it doesn't seem that way but out here in the real world that's why fewer people bother with raiding or guilds that do that. It sounds awful. If your entire guild feels like that perhaps you should talk it over at the next guild meeting about whether "grinding your fucking ass off this tier" is really worth it. You could still raid. Progression might be slower but there's nothing to keep you from walking through a raid portal.

[Murderdoll]

>Mythic guild leaders fault for burnout.

>Implements 54 trait weapon system with absolutely no cap and legendary item system which drops randomly with content.

Even heroic guilds are being pressured to grind traits out. Couple that with the strict requirement for 20 players in a time where finding a ranged DPS is like finding the Virgin Mary, Mythic raiding is a fucking grind. Thats not even world 100 mythic raiding. Thats trying to get in the fucking door.

- - - Updated - - -

meeting about whether "grinding your fucking ass off this tier" is really worth it. You could still raid. Progression might be slower but there's nothing to keep you from walking through a raid portal.

Its a catch 22.

Mythic Guilds are screaming for recruits. You slow down progression you risk a few jumping ship for faster progression. Then you arent walking through that portal.

[EasyE]

That's where you're wrong. Mythic raiding is designed around playing 80 hours a week. And Ion is the head designer.

Accepting ZERO responsibility for HIS and HIS TEAM'S design is the absolute pinnacle of hubris. This guy is so full of himself it honestly makes me sick.

Your right, however this game is catered to the majority not the 1% of people who play it. Sorry but its the players fault if they want to play that much they burn out. However the other 99% of player base is progressing at their own pace enjoying the game. Im so glad blizzard does not cater to the 1% if they did this game would end up like Wildstar.

[darklogrus]

>Mythic guild leaders fault for burnout.

>Implements 54 trait weapon system with absolutely no cap and legendary item system which drops randomly with content.

Even heroic guilds are being pressured to grind traits out. Couple that with the strict requirement for 20 players in a time where finding a ranged DPS is like finding the Virgin Mary, Mythic raiding is a fucking grind. Thats not even world 100 mythic raiding. Thats trying to get in the fucking door.
.

Not to mention they scaled NH based on the notion that every player had max weapons and 2 BiS legendaries.

[Kallisto]

Your analogy is the one that makes zero sense.

No one ever asked Blizzard to put timers on accounts, any sane player is asking for reasonable, rolling caps to how much you can power up your character per week through AP. Split raiding could absolutely be addressed through changes to the loot system or by other methods. Ion has even said in the last 4 months that he would like to do away with the practice, so even the lead designer (who is a moron) disagrees with you on that.

To say Blizzard has no control over this situation is just asinine. They absolutely could do multiple things to even the playing field, they just refuse to do them because they're lazy or just don't care. Please stop encouraging the devs to be lazy by pretending nothing can be done.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. You want caps but any kind of cap fucks over people big time if they can't play on Tues/Weds (or first two days after reset depending on where in the world you play at). The community is full of people who get to caps and just don't bother anymore once they reached it. As apparent from basically any previous expansion. These people out number I'd say those who are burning themselves out because they feel like they need to do everything now.

Rolling caps do not help these people. Having no caps does. Have you a solution that works for both because if so I'm happy to hear it. Something that allows complete power gain so no one gets missed out on but also non forced either? Go.

[Flurryfang]

>Mythic guild leaders fault for burnout.

>Implements 54 trait weapon system with absolutely no cap and legendary item system which drops randomly with content.

Even heroic guilds are being pressured to grind traits out. Couple that with the strict requirement for 20 players in a time where finding a ranged DPS is like finding the Virgin Mary, Mythic raiding is a fucking grind. Thats not even world 100 mythic raiding. Thats trying to get in the fucking door.

- - - Updated - - -



Its a catch 22.

Mythic Guilds are screaming for recruits. You slow down progression you risk a few jumping ship for faster progression. Then you arent walking through that portal.

Maybe if you advertise, that you are a mythic guild, who does not require insane farming would create a new recruitbase Everytime you change your guild, some will fall off and others will find you more lucretive and attractive.

- - - Updated - - -

Not to mention they scaled NH based on the notion that every player had max weapons and 2 BiS legendaries.

Only last 2-3 bosses.

[InfiniteCharger]

Blizzard designed the game where AP, Legendaries, WF and TF were required for harder content.

Blizzard designed the game where AP, Legendaries, WF and TF were given out by M+ dungeons.

Blizzard designed the game where it is possible to infinitely progress on all those things.

Blizzard designed the game to where it is possible for EVERYBODY to get these things no matter what content they play endgame.

Blizzard designed the game where RNG is so much of a factor in all of these thing.

All of those things together are "blizzards fault" because they are all new systems and they created them specifically for this expansion.

In theory, the highest gains in power should be for those doing the harder stuff. But because everybody is being given so much opportunity for power without doing harder stuff, that puts them in the position of now moving onto content they would never have done before. Yet that harder content now has to be tuned around players having higher power levels because of all the ways players could theoretically get it. And then the RNG factor kicks in, which means that everybody who is creeping up this difficulty ladder now realizes they must grind to reach that theoretical power limit for x raid to be successful. All of that is Blizzards fault because they designed the game.

If they didn't promise WF/TF, Legendaries and Artifact Power to everybody way back in Blizzcon and actually gated more increases in player power behind harder content, they probably would be in a better spot. People wouldn't have 54 traits because those traits wouldn't be easy to get. Folks wouldn't have been downing EN bosses so easy because they wouldn't have been over geared. They wouldn't have had to redo the artifact system multiple times because of the loopholes they put in the game. They wouldn't have to tune the Mythic bosses to such high levels of AP because most players wouldn't have them. And so forth. Yeah all of that is their fault. It may have sounded good and looked good on paper (even that is doubtful) but in execution not so much.

Casuals doing content at "their own pace™", shouldn't be affected by or care about others doing harder content. And vice versa. But by showering everybody in power progression and using RNG with extra randomness only promotes a grind instead of a smooth progression across the board.

[IceMan1763]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. You want caps but any kind of cap fucks over people big time if they can't play on Tues/Weds (or first two days after reset depending on where in the world you play at). The community is full of people who get to caps and just don't bother anymore once they reached it. As apparent from basically any previous expansion. These people out number I'd say those who are burning themselves out because they feel like they need to do everything now.

Rolling caps do not help these people. Having no caps does. Have you a solution that works for both because if so I'm happy to hear it. Something that allows complete power gain so no one gets missed out on but also non forced either? Go.

Look I don't know how you define these terms, but a daily cap would be stupid for the AP system. So would a weekly cap. The system should've been designed with a total cap that was raised every few days or every week. AK should've kicked in when you fell a certain amount behind and then stopped when you caught up to a reasonable degree.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe if you advertise, that you are a mythic guild, who does not require insane farming would create a new recruitbase Everytime you change your guild, some will fall off and others will find you more lucretive and attractive.

- - - Updated - - -



Only last 2-3 bosses.

Definitely the last 3, but bosses 4-7 have pretty stringent requirements as well. Those bosses have a total kill count of about 2300 right now, which is pretty low for this stage of release. This shows both how difficult meeting those requirements are as well as the decimating effect these new systems have had on mythic raiding.

[Myta]

Contrary to popular opinion, I think it's healthier for the game overall if Mythics are tuned around the 1% instead of the 0.001% that raid 24/7 for 3 weeks and force Blizzard to tune fights around having 40+ traits. This has a unhealthy trickle down effect on the community who feel they must no-life the game just to clear content level they were clearing just fine in WoD and EN.

[Relapses]

That's more a comment on just how bad things are in raiding guilds than a comment on anything to do with the design. I'm sure from inside it doesn't seem that way but out here in the real world that's why fewer people bother with raiding or guilds that do that. It sounds awful. If your entire guild feels like that perhaps you should talk it over at the next guild meeting about whether "grinding your fucking ass off this tier" is really worth it. You could still raid. Progression might be slower but there's nothing to keep you from walking through a raid portal.

Reconditioning the mindset of an entire guild is easier said than done. And it's not just "a guild." Nearly every quasi-serious Mythic guild I've ever encountered has a similar prerogative. It's an issue endemic with Mythic raiding in general. You can politely talk about how "those of us in the real world know how to manage our time and this shouldn't be any of Blizzard's concern" but ultimately the systems they leave in place are what lead to the abuses. Even if they aren't utilized in the manner which they intend -- or if players find ways to manipulate their systems to their advantage (MoS+ runs) -- I still feel some of the blame should reside with Blizzard for knowing how people in Mythic guilds play the game and still allowing these systems to exist.

I will once again provide an aside here: This issue is mostly prescient today due to the way AP works in 7.1.5. The 54 trait Holy Grail and the amount of grinding it requires to get there if you haven't been playing consistently since release is huge. If Blizzard's changes to AP in 7.2 alleviate some of the greatest motivating factors for extreme grinding I think ultimately a lot of the bitching in this thread will prove moot. I still strongly disagree with Ion's narcissistic deflection of blame solely onto raid leaders but it remains to be seen whether they're learning from their mistakes.

[Paulosio]

Not to mention they scaled NH based on the notion that every player had max weapons and 2 BiS legendaries.

Did they really though ? I don't think they ever said that and i've not seen any evidence of it on the 6 bosses i've done in there with my guild that has many people that don't have even 50 traits yet and some of whom have none of their bis legendaries (Inclding myself. I use prydaz and the healing helm on my BM hunter because nothing better has dropped)

[Relapses]

12 of my raiders have 3 (three) full 54 artifacts, 6 have 2x54, and rest have just one. This is a guild that's only floating around world 30-60, rarely higher, and I put great value on our time, hence I never asked anyone ever to grind anything - but the raid spots? Now those are not for granted - you must be better than others to make it to progress.

This grind was OK - again - this grind was OK.

What is NOT OK is yet another grind that nullifies our efforts and puts us back to square one with everyone else in just 2-3 months. We have yet to even finish Nighthold. The very last thing I want for my team is to have more grinding to do for ToS.

I want to take the time to remind everyone that tries to come with "you always had to grind in WoW" - No, not between tiers. If you got T5 gear, you were set for T5. BRF gear? Set for HFC. This is how it used to work, and it was GOOD.

The current AP system is a tumorous growth on WoW that's similar with the bad, grindy systems in cheap F2P/Asian MMOs that most of us WoW player tried to avoid for what is now decades.

WoW used to be: skilled to down raid bosses? Good - BiS gear. Not "farm non-raid content forever for AP and RNG chance at BiS legendaries and TF procs".

Needless to say which system was better.

I whole-heartedly and 100% agree with you. A gear-based system, imo, is much better. But it presented the "WoD paradox," where if you didn't raid to get gear, you had absolutely no clear cut way to increase your character's power. AP/AK is a way for players who do not raid to still increase their character's power. And for the majority of the games' playerbase, it's perfectly fine since it gives them a near-infinite carrot-on-the-stick. The reason there's so much debate here is that you have people in Mythic guilds saying, "Yo Blizzard, think you could tone it down a bit?" to which the far more numerous casual players say, "not at the expense of what I consider to be 'content'." Ultimately, the casual players far outnumber those in Mythic guilds and hence you get a lot of the "suck it up princess" posts you see in this thread.

[KaPe]

The reason there's so much debate here is that you have people in Mythic guilds saying, "Yo Blizzard, think you could tone it down a bit?" to which the far more numerous casual players say, "not at the expense of what I consider to be 'content'." Ultimately, the casual players far outnumber those in Mythic guilds and hence you get a lot of the "suck it up princess" posts you see in this thread.

What's funny is that this majority wouldn't even realize that the system was changed. Really casual players didn't even know that there were more than 34 traits in the weapon - and 20 ranks, at that. Whether new Paragon is 30, 40 or 50 probably won't matter to them at all, they aren't going to grind it out anyway.

[shadowmatrix]

My question to the people who think being able to grind AP to infinity is a fine system is why do we still have such a thing as raid lockouts?

Because players are stupid. We had the ability to run TOGC normal 10, normal 25, heroic 10, and heroic 25 man. the result was players running themselves into the ground and blaming Blizzard for their own inability to control their own lives.

[theyanger]

Not for or against your reasoning, but just some facts, 1-54 is 218 +10 runs. Of actual dungeon time, if you were to do that all in MoS carry groups, that would be 3 an hour. Requiring 72hrs to get the 54 levels.

Say you only want to play 4hrs a day, which is still a lot. That's 18 days to get 54 traits, without going full no life. But then there's times to get the keys, so probably around 24 days.

Then you have to consider it won't always be MoS 10, often 7-9 aswell, so you'd probably need to do around 240 runs. So that's 80hrs, taking 20 days, but realistically 26ish if you played 4hrs a day, including the time to get the carry key.

It really isn't that much of a grind on paper, it'll probably drive you crazy doing that much of the same M+. But if you follow that, you'll have it done in a month. Start to finish.

Almost a month of doing the exact same dungeon nonstop for 4 hours a day actually sounds COMPLETELY insane even on paper.

[Emerald Archer]

Almost a month of doing the exact same dungeon nonstop for 4 hours a day actually sounds COMPLETELY insane even on paper.

On paper tends to take the more emotional side out of it, but yes, it is pretty insane :P

[Wingspan]

No, it is the responsibility of the player to regulate their own playing and handle it in a healthy way. Personal responsibility is a thing. The only exception from this is if the player is a minor, in which case it's the player's parents responsibility to regulate their behaviour. It's insane to me how many people here seem to advocate that adults shouldn't be responsible for their own actions.

Good game design tries to prevent any behavior that could have a negative financial impact on the game. That responsibility is not to the players... it is to the company that the designers work for.


How well a game controls the behavior of its playerbase has a very direct affect on profits, so it is a VITAL part of game design.


When you have a scenario like this it gets a bit dangerous for profits... because on one hand, the excessive grind could encourage people to stick around and pay for a sub longer than they would have... but on the other, it could also drive some people out that probably would not have left. (And I have no idea how this scenario will ultimately pan out - but for now Blizzard seems to think not enough people will quit over it, or else they would not have done it.)


It's not about Bob not being able to control himself... it is about whether Bob's lack of control makes (or loses) money for the gaming company.