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  1. #1181
    Herald of the Titans Murderdoll's Avatar
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    I simply cannot believe Blizzard thought noone would burn themselves out. How stupid are they?

    "Here is this new 54 trait system that gives you .5% more damage, the more you grind. There is no cap on how quickly you can get it".

    Some time later.

    "Gee whiz, I sure am shocked that players who value getting gear and doing more damage have gone out and farmed the shit out of these."

    This game is fucking 12 years old, how haven't they learned this yet? If there is no cap, players will feel forced to do it all until they are burnt out.

  2. #1182
    High Overlord randprin's Avatar
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    i don't know if anyone threw this into the debate (i gave up on reading all the posts around page 10), but blizzard did implement a hard cap on some bosses that prevented this sort of burn out and mindless zerging in the past.

    the limited attempts on both algalon and heroic lich king served to protect the hardcore community from itself, sure, they all complained bitterly about how restricted it was, but seeing today's burnout rate, this might have been the best way to go about it (in fact, bring it back on an account wide lockout, so no 500 split raids to warm up to the boss)

    this will, 1. slow progression in the mythic race, 2. stop burnout with the hardcap on attempts,3. open the race for people who aren't as time committed to the game and 4. force mythic raiders to think and plan rather then throw themselves at bosses until the stars align and everyone's playing perfect this attempt and the boss keel over from sheer repetition.

  3. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    I simply cannot believe Blizzard thought noone would burn themselves out. How stupid are they?

    "Here is this new 54 trait system that gives you .5% more damage, the more you grind. There is no cap on how quickly you can get it".

    Some time later.

    "Gee whiz, I sure am shocked that players who value getting gear and doing more damage have gone out and farmed the shit out of these."

    This game is fucking 12 years old, how haven't they learned this yet? If there is no cap, players will feel forced to do it all until they are burnt out.
    Well, you are right, but i fail to see where this is a Blizzard problem (or the 98% of playerbase problem).

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by theyanger View Post
    EN was trivial because the bosses were tuned around heroic dungeon gear and instead Mythic + gear was forging up to like 20 ilevels higher than that or more.

    Artifact Power meant literally nothing in that zone, because it was trivial to be low/mid 20s and a TON of work to be just a few points higher (since requirements were exponential and the AK gains were actually what prevented you from getting anywhere). Those points meant very little because most people's Artifact trait value plateaus in the mid 20s until you hit 35, and the 35 push was ToV mythic not EN (It wasn't possible to be 35 before EN). 35-54 being more linear and grindy while AK just STOPPED is what caused this crap. Prior to TOV (35 push) and NH (54 push) there was actually almost no benefit to absurd grinding.

    But please, continue to talk about subjects you clearly don't even understand the arguments around.
    Because you fucking do? Sure, traits didn't matter as much as gear. Doesn't change the fact that Blizzard didn't expect top guilds to farm like crazy and do 5+ split raids. My guild required 3 chars for EN, and even then that was a lot of work. Top 5 guilds asked you to have 5. This is just pure insanity. Are you going to blame Blizzard for that too?

    Also M+ were released only one week before M EN, which didn't allow you to loot 20+ ilvl than M EN (unless insanely lucky), since the base ilvl was capped the first week anyway, but please keep talking about a subject you clearly don't understand anything about (see, I can act like a condescending ass too). Do I think the current system is great? No, I don't. Particularly, I wish they didn't create a new grind for the people who already unlocked all their artifact. But I think that the AP system is great and should be kept. I just don't think it can be balanced perfectly between Mythic raiders and casuals. But at the same time, no game can be balanced for both crowds.

    Good job avoiding the other points too. If you think getting 54 points was hard and that YOU NEED IT, even outside of the top 100, you clearly are the one who has no clue. Or you're a bad player, stuck in a bad guild (watching your stream, it confirmed me that you indeed are pretty bad), and think you should follow Serenity in everything they do.

    EDIT : And here's a solution, keep the same system and the same rates, but instead, make it that every boss killed in a difficulty higher than LFR drops AP on your first kill for that timer. With Mythic giving you a ton of it. That way, Mythic raiders will earn so much AP from raid that they will not have to grind outside of raids and casuals will still have something to work for.
    Last edited by Jngizu; 2017-02-26 at 08:38 AM.

  5. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingspan View Post
    Good game design tries to prevent any behavior that could have a negative financial impact on the game. That responsibility is not to the players... it is to the company that the designers work for.


    How well a game controls the behavior of its playerbase has a very direct affect on profits, so it is a VITAL part of game design.


    When you have a scenario like this it gets a bit dangerous for profits... because on one hand, the excessive grind could encourage people to stick around and pay for a sub longer than they would have... but on the other, it could also drive some people out that probably would not have left. (And I have no idea how this scenario will ultimately pan out - but for now Blizzard seems to think not enough people will quit over it, or else they would not have done it.)


    It's not about Bob not being able to control himself... it is about whether Bob's lack of control makes (or loses) money for the gaming company.
    Yeah but the amount of Bob quitting is way less then the Bob's you keep with this kind of system (i am one of the Bob's that keep playing, in WoD i unsubbed way sooner and way more often). As i already said, until mythic raiders (the insane ones) will become the majority (and good luck with that), Blizzard will not care about their in-game (and out-game) habits.

  6. #1186
    Yeah, Ion probably shouldn't chose a career as a diplomat or in customer relations

  7. #1187
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    I simply cannot believe Blizzard thought noone would burn themselves out. How stupid are they?

    "Here is this new 54 trait system that gives you .5% more damage, the more you grind. There is no cap on how quickly you can get it".

    Some time later.

    "Gee whiz, I sure am shocked that players who value getting gear and doing more damage have gone out and farmed the shit out of these."

    This game is fucking 12 years old, how haven't they learned this yet? If there is no cap, players will feel forced to do it all until they are burnt out.
    Blizzard is a company that does videogames, not mental support. Can't really base their game over people that can't control themselves.

  8. #1188
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJrogue View Post
    Blizzard is a company that does videogames, not mental support. Can't really base their game over people that can't control themselves.
    No one asked them to base the game over anybody. Nice strawman. Measures should be put in to prevent burn outs. That is all.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  9. #1189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No one asked them to base the game over anybody. Nice strawman. Measures should be put in to prevent burn outs. That is all.
    You can't... prevent burnouts? The system in place works well when taken with moderation. Why adding a daily cap? So that the ones unable to deal with it reasonably can be "safeguarded"?
    Once again, that's not the service Blizzard provides.

  10. #1190
    Deleted
    I don't get why Mythic is still a thing. 99.8% aren't doing it, so why even bother? Its a complete waste of time. I did a few Mythic Bosses in the first Tier of WoD and Legion but always burned out pretty quick, because its the same shitty Bosses you already killed on 3 Different Difficulties!

    They need to get back to the Vanilla/TBC System with only 1 Difficulty, so there is a reason to progress to just see the Bosses!

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    I simply cannot believe Blizzard thought noone would burn themselves out. How stupid are they?

    "Here is this new 54 trait system that gives you .5% more damage, the more you grind. There is no cap on how quickly you can get it".

    Some time later.

    "Gee whiz, I sure am shocked that players who value getting gear and doing more damage have gone out and farmed the shit out of these."

    This game is fucking 12 years old, how haven't they learned this yet? If there is no cap, players will feel forced to do it all until they are burnt out.
    that is a CHOICE. if you want to be the best at anything you have to invest time into it if you dont enjoy it then why are you doing it never seen so many people crying about feeling forced to play a video game lmao

  12. #1192
    All I think Blizzard needs to do to fix any problems at all with the AP grind is cap how much AP/gear can come from M+ a week. Don't cap any other source and make the m+ cap reasonable. 10-15 m+ a week cap for gear/ap. After that, you can still run them for fun or whatever, but no more gear/ap once you hit the cap. This allows for people generate a good amount of ap/gear from m+ each week, while not making it something to do 24/7. This kind of thing won't have much of an effect on casuals as 10-15 m+ is quite a large amount for them. Yes, it will "force" raiders in to doing their m+ cap a week, but in the end, I don't know of many of us who don't at least hit 10 a week as it is. I actively try to avoid it now since I'm 54 in MS(I'm a tank, so not much use for other specs in a raiding sense) and I end up doing 6-8 a week as is for friends/guildies who need it and my own 15.

    Also, this would put a lot more pressure to +3 a keystone since if you +1 or +2 it, you miss out on a gear chest. It wouldn't change AP, but it would cut your gear.

    I don't want or think there should be caps on other AP/gear sources. If someone really wants to maximize AP, they'd have to do LFR, Normal, Heroic and Mythic of each instance each week. On top of that, all WC's and rep bags. That is a lot of stuff to get done each week if you wish maximize your AP, but it isn't limitless as all of those things have a finite end.

    tl;dr - Capping AP/Gear from m+ to 10-15 clears a week fixes almost everything.

  13. #1193
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No one asked them to base the game over anybody. Nice strawman. Measures should be put in to prevent burn outs. That is all.
    BUT WHY??????????

    Why they shuold focus on a system that prevent the burn out of a couple of hundred (to be generous) of players????

  14. #1194
    Deleted
    I think the way they are addressing it in 7.2 could kinda work?
    Nice idea though.

  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirilla View Post
    I don't get why Mythic is still a thing. 99.8% aren't doing it, so why even bother? Its a complete waste of time. I did a few Mythic Bosses in the first Tier of WoD and Legion but always burned out pretty quick, because its the same shitty Bosses you already killed on 3 Different Difficulties!

    They need to get back to the Vanilla/TBC System with only 1 Difficulty, so there is a reason to progress to just see the Bosses!
    You can also watch boss kill video and then you don't even have to pay sub! Amazing.

  16. #1196
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJrogue View Post
    You can't... prevent burnouts? The system in place works well when taken with moderation. Why adding a daily cap? So that the ones unable to deal with it reasonably can be "safeguarded"?
    Once again, that's not the service Blizzard provides.
    You can. Caps work (and worked) perfectly. Burning out was not a thing mid expansion back in the day.
    It's not about dealing with it or not dealing with it.
    If a game allows for burn out - players will burn out. That's like one of those Moore laws.
    And people who can "deal with it" will not feel satisfaction because even though they don't grind - that on the other hand causes them to feel as if they are "behind" everyone else who grinds. Yeah, you have great self-control, but you don't feel good about it. People are not content with how current system works, even those who don't grind. Except for those who fall into a minority group of players who just don't care about progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shot89 View Post
    BUT WHY??????????

    Why they shuold focus on a system that prevent the burn out of a couple of hundred (to be generous) of players????
    Who said anything about "focus"?

    Read above.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  17. #1197
    TL;DR of this entire thread: Ion is right, the game is designed for more casual players because that's where 99℅ of the money comes from, and people are mad because of these facts.

  18. #1198
    Herald of the Titans Murderdoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shot89 View Post
    Well, you are right, but i fail to see where this is a Blizzard problem (or the 98% of playerbase problem).
    Quote Originally Posted by TJrogue View Post
    Blizzard is a company that does videogames, not mental support. Can't really base their game over people that can't control themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeexbean View Post
    that is a CHOICE. if you want to be the best at anything you have to invest time into it if you dont enjoy it then why are you doing it never seen so many people crying about feeling forced to play a video game lmao

    Does Blizzard want people to continue playing their game yes or no?

    If YES, it is their problem and they need to help curb player behavior. They curb it everywhere else!

    If NO, continue allowing players to literally drive themselves into the floor.

    Given the changes in 7.2 theyve recognised this was their problem.

  19. #1199
    I love how folks keep saying the new system gives you something to work towards, as if that never existed before. No, the system gives you the ILLUSION of something you can work towards, but in reality you can never get there. You can never reach infinity, by definition. This new paragon trait only reinforces the fact they have found a new better formula of wowcrack and most people are hooked. In the past, most players set their sight on a particular progression in terms of the gear they wanted and worked their way towards that. There were some stepping stones in place to get it, some RNG in it but usually with some effort you were guaranteed to be able to reach that goal. Of course top end players would set their goals on having the best possible gear at any time for top end content. All of that was possible, albeit with more effort. Now, it is totally impossible to reach that goal. So much RNG in the game now means that you can never reliably expect to reach a certain goal of having maxed out gear in this game. But they have given you an infinite crack dispenser at the end of a hamster wheel that gives out just enough to keep you running the same content over and over and over....

    Most people complaining about the current system, which is totally new and unique to Legion are complaining about this inability to reach a predetermined goal in gearing out, AKA progression, which has been there in most expansions up to this point.

    And yes it is definitely Blizzard who created this new infinite system to reward staying on the hamster wheel longer.

  20. #1200
    Quote Originally Posted by Murderdoll View Post
    Does Blizzard want people to continue playing their game yes or no?

    If YES, it is their problem and they need to help curb player behavior. They curb it everywhere else!

    If NO, continue allowing players to literally drive themselves into the floor.

    Given the changes in 7.2 theyve recognised this was their problem.
    But thats the thing only few % will burn out and thats the probably percentage they are ok with, they are still tuning ap/ak for 7.2 but its not going anywhere.

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