Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Elim Garak]

But thats the thing only few % will burn out and thats the probably percentage they are ok with, they are still tuning ap/ak for 7.2 but its not going anywhere.

It's not just about those who burn out. Those who "control" themselves don't feel happy about it, because people who have less control have better gear than them. People who were luckier than them have better gear. And the only way to keep up is to grind - the very thing they are controlling themselves against.

It's a psychological drama. People are burning out on "control".

[Coffeexbean]

Does Blizzard want people to continue playing their game yes or no?

If YES, it is their problem and they need to help curb player behavior. They curb it everywhere else!

If NO, continue allowing players to literally drive themselves into the floor.

Given the changes in 7.2 theyve recognised this was their problem.

You are like a fat kid with food who cant control himself. Apply moderation to yourself because its no ones job to do it for you. You sound like the guy that tried to sue Mcdonalds for getting fat

[Elim Garak]

You are like a fat kid with food who cant control himself. Apply moderation to yourself because its no ones job to do it for you. You sound like the guy that tried to sue Mcdonalds for getting fat

There's a built-in cap on how much food you can ingest.

[Deleted]

You can. Caps work (and worked) perfectly. Burning out was not a thing mid expansion back in the day.
It's not about dealing with it or not dealing with it.
If a game allows for burn out - players will burn out. That's like one of those Moore laws.
And people who can "deal with it" will not feel satisfaction because even though they don't grind - that on the other hand causes them to feel as if they are "behind" everyone else who grinds. Yeah, you have great self-control, but you don't feel good about it. People are not content with how current system works, even those who don't grind. Except for those who fall into a minority group of players who just don't care about progression.


Who said anything about "focus"?

Read above.

So you want caps again. I remember caps day. Log in one day, reach all cap, have nothing to do for a whole week. Or, can't log for a week, and feel behind everyone. Or log and last day before reset, good luck finding people to do stuff.

Great idea, but for a RAIDER. For everyone else, not so much. Now i can play WoW for 2 hours each day and do something useful. And i can raid too.

You can say, let's put a very high cap, something you can't reach in a day (supposing you play for 24 hour). But a very high cap it's hard to measure with the amount of AP we have. What cuold be a right cap? 2 million? 10 million? 105.678,87 million? Someone will always whine, because 2 million can be a nice cap for a freshly dinged, but too low for a myt raider (for example).

Valor point cap was easy, because you already knew the gear price etc.

[Coffeexbean]

There's a built-in cap on how much food you can ingest.

yea tell that to the average american

[Deleted]

Does Blizzard want people to continue playing their game yes or no?

If YES, it is their problem and they need to help curb player behavior. They curb it everywhere else!

If NO, continue allowing players to literally drive themselves into the floor.

Given the changes in 7.2 theyve recognised this was their problem.

Changes are good, but this changes will not solve the Mythic guild leaders issue Ion is referring to. And he is not talking about the averege Joe myt guild leader, that kill the last boss 2 days before the next patch, but mostly the World First 50 or so. And you will never be able to solve their problems (see split run, have a lot of alt etc etc).

[Deleted]

You can. Caps work (and worked) perfectly. Burning out was not a thing mid expansion back in the day.
It's not about dealing with it or not dealing with it.
If a game allows for burn out - players will burn out. That's like one of those Moore laws.
And people who can "deal with it" will not feel satisfaction because even though they don't grind - that on the other hand causes them to feel as if they are "behind" everyone else who grinds. Yeah, you have great self-control, but you don't feel good about it. People are not content with how current system works, even those who don't grind. Except for those who fall into a minority group of players who just don't care about progression.


Who said anything about "focus"?

Read above.

These are pretty specific comments. I wonder how you came to those conclusions. Do you have some sort of data that helped you see the patterns of who likes what?

Anyway, yes adding a cap daily would work in preventing endless AP grinds. So yeah like I said it would help that minority of people unable to control themselves. Thank you but no thank you, if you can't cope with your own self, it's your problem not mine (Generic"you" not you ). I want to be able to play randomly as I do, but if I want to grind for two days I want to be able to do it. Blizzard is allowing this to happen. And that's great.

Anyway a daily cap would still make it mandatory for people and the ones that are not going to make it will still feel they're "underperforming". I mean the ones who care.
Or you could you know... not give a fuck like I do, now on level 46, enjoying every new level like what it is, an extra gain, with a couple of weeks more or less left before reaching 54, and not burning out

- - - Updated - - -

Does Blizzard want people to continue playing their game yes or no?

If YES, it is their problem and they need to help curb player behavior. They curb it everywhere else!

If NO, continue allowing players to literally drive themselves into the floor.

Given the changes in 7.2 theyve recognised this was their problem.

The system in place benefits the overwhelming majority of people that just you know... enjoy the game.

- - - Updated - - -

So you want caps again. I remember caps day. Log in one day, reach all cap, have nothing to do for a whole week. Or, can't log for a week, and feel behind everyone. Or log and last day before reset, good luck finding people to do stuff.

Great idea, but for a RAIDER. For everyone else, not so much. Now i can play WoW for 2 hours each day and do something useful. And i can raid too.

You can say, let's put a very high cap, something you can't reach in a day (supposing you play for 24 hour). But a very high cap it's hard to measure with the amount of AP we have. What cuold be a right cap? 2 million? 10 million? 105.678,87 million? Someone will always whine, because 2 million can be a nice cap for a freshly dinged, but too low for a myt raider (for example).

Valor point cap was easy, because you already knew the gear price etc.

Yup... caps are caps... they are limiting. That's what they do I mean that's the reason they exist.

[Deleted]

These are pretty specific comments. I wonder how you came to those conclusions. Do you have some sort of data that helped you see the patterns of who likes what?

Anyway, yes adding a cap daily would work in preventing endless AP grinds. So yeah like I said it would help that minority of people unable to control themselves. Thank you but no thank you, if you can't cope with your own self, it's your problem not mine (Generic"you" not you ). I want to be able to play randomly as I do, but if I want to grind for two days I want to be able to do it. Blizzard is allowing this to happen. And that's great.

Anyway a daily cap would still make it mandatory for people and the ones that are not going to make it will still feel they're "underperforming". I mean the ones who care.
Or you could you know... not give a fuck lile I do, now on level 46, with a couple of weeks more or less left before reaching 54, and not burning out

+1

Again people fail to see that, from a PURE game prospective, there is nothing different between Averege Joe that clear myt raid at his own peace, killing last boss a week before the next patch, and Mister Pro WF Guild member, that kill the same boss a week after raid release. I have the same Ach, the same AoTC, the same mount, the same title. Oh wait, my name is not on a random unofficial site! The shame!

P.S: when Blizzard tune raids, they keep in mind the Averege Joe, and not Mister Pro WF Guild Member.

[Desparil]

It's not just about those who burn out. Those who "control" themselves don't feel happy about it, because people who have less control have better gear than them. People who were luckier than them have better gear. And the only way to keep up is to grind - the very thing they are controlling themselves against.

It's a psychological drama. People are burning out on "control".

Again this. What people? How many? Whole mmoc can stop playing today and majority wouldn't notice it in game. I know plenty of people that enjoy ap/ak both casual and mythic raiding.
Lets say every mythic raider is burning itself out of control there are 5180 guilds with scorp kill and give generous 30 raiders per guild thats 150k people and lets take doomsayers 6 mil sub figure thats like 2.5% of people playing. So they can all stop playing and it wont make a dent in subs. Again they are saying they made mistake so they are tuning it in 7.2.

[kamuimac]

I simply cannot believe Blizzard thought noone would burn themselves out. How stupid are they?

"Here is this new 54 trait system that gives you .5% more damage, the more you grind. There is no cap on how quickly you can get it".

Some time later.

"Gee whiz, I sure am shocked that players who value getting gear and doing more damage have gone out and farmed the shit out of these."

This game is fucking 12 years old, how haven't they learned this yet? If there is no cap, players will feel forced to do it all until they are burnt out.

or maybe that exackly their intention - to get rid of burned out old toxic players and atract different crowd.

after all catering to raiders was failing for past 13 years time to try something new.

[Deleted]

Good game design tries to prevent any behavior that could have a negative financial impact on the game. That responsibility is not to the players... it is to the company that the designers work for.


How well a game controls the behavior of its playerbase has a very direct affect on profits, so it is a VITAL part of game design.


When you have a scenario like this it gets a bit dangerous for profits... because on one hand, the excessive grind could encourage people to stick around and pay for a sub longer than they would have... but on the other, it could also drive some people out that probably would not have left. (And I have no idea how this scenario will ultimately pan out - but for now Blizzard seems to think not enough people will quit over it, or else they would not have done it.)


It's not about Bob not being able to control himself... it is about whether Bob's lack of control makes (or loses) money for the gaming company.

This is a valid point, I'd still argue that the burnout is only a real problem for less than 5% of the playerbase that aspire to high-end raiding. For 90% or more of the playerbase it's just "awesome, there's still a lot of stuff to do" which is good for player retention.

[Deleted]

This is a valid point, I'd still argue that the burnout is only a real problem for less than 5% of the playerbase that aspire to high-end raiding. For 90% or more of the playerbase it's just "awesome, there's still a lot of stuff to do" which is good for player retention.

It is a valid point... it's just not achievable. You can't prevent burnout on a videogame. Due to the addictive nature of mmos, burnout is just something they have to deal with.

[Deleted]

back in the days it was true.

Once proogress was over we only cleared the raid once a week and apart frm that nobody was forced to log in more than 1-2 times a week.
Before Legion hardcore raiding ment going ham for 2-3 weeks and then be done with it for 3-4 months.

Nowadays hardcore raiding requires you to farm AP, grind legendaries (or level a new char) on top of the old stuff.
Blizzard balancing NH for 54 traits is a joke. (4-10) They know exactly how mythic raiding works. No guildmaster is ever gonna say "ye whatever let's start mythic raiding in a month from now when people have the traits ready, that's all cool with us"

Saying that it's the GM's fault isn't 100% true. Yes maybe they should not do 5 split raids and raid 12+ hours a day. (but that is something people signed up for in the first place since hardcore raiding has been like this for years now)

The actual prooblem is that hardcore raiders don't have down times anymore.
Even a 2-3 weeks after NH has been cleared blizzard starts throwing PTR raid-tests at them.
Blizzard is simply too fast atm. (never thought I'd say that) They could have delayed ToV and NH easily by 2-3 weeks each and people would have had more time to chill. Since EN we got a new raid every 2 - 2 1/2 months and blizzard keeps tuning the new encounters for a stupid amount of artefact level.

The solution could have been a cap and see the higher weapon levels as a "soft nerf"

[Deleted]

back in the days it was true.

In the first MoP-Tier my guild and I finshed top10.

Once proogress was over we only cleared the raid once a week and apart frm that nobody was forced to log in more than 1-2 times a week.
Before Legion hardcore raiding ment going ham for 2-3 weeks and then be done with it for 3-4 months.

Nowadays hardcore raiding requires you to farm AP, grind legendaries (or level a new char) on top of the old stuff.
Blizzard balancing NH for 54 traits is a joke. (4-10) They know exactly how mythic raiding works. No guildmaster is ever gonna say "ye whatever let's start mythic raiding in a month from now when people have the traits ready, that's all cool with us"

Saying that it's the GM's fault isn't 100% true. Yes maybe they should not do 5 split raids and raid 12+ hours a day. (but that is something people signed up for in the first place since hardcore raiding has been like this for years now)

Hardcore raiders dooon't have down times anymore. Even after NH is being cleared blizzard starts throwing PTR raid-tests at them.
Blizzard is simply too fast atm. (never thought I'd say that) They could have delayed ToV and NH easily by 2-3 weeks each and people would have had more time to chill. Since EN we got a new raid every 2 - 2 1/2 months and blizzard keeps tuning the new encounters for a stupid amount of artefact level.

The solution could have been a cap and see the higher weapon levels as a "soft nerf"

The guild leader of my mythic raid group doesn't force people to farm ap. They're on spellblade. No one minds.

I guess responsibility does fall on guild leaders forcing members to farm, when there is absolutely no reason to rush

[Elim Garak]

So you want caps again. I remember caps day. Log in one day, reach all cap, have nothing to do for a whole week. Or, can't log for a week, and feel behind everyone. Or log and last day before reset, good luck finding people to do stuff.

First of all when I said caps work - I meant they prevent burn out. What wow did in the past with caps was a poor attempt. They tried to cap it didn't work out for them - because of the issues that you outlined. And then they said fuck it.

But they just did it wrong. There was very few things you could cap. The gear was funneled via are a very limited number of faucets. And there was a cap on the faucets. They should have tried to increase the number of things to "grind" and cap them. So you cannot possibly cap them all in one day, well unless you play 24/7.

They are half way there now. They have lots of faucets (and they are all capped, btw) but the caps on them are either too high, or hidden.

For instance you can do all the WQ for the day. So there's a daily cap on that. But who does that? People get burned out on them way before they reach the cap. Some people don't even bother to do them, because of human psychology - when you want to do some WQ and open up the map there's just too many options, you don't want to do them all, so you have to choose which ones you are going to do, and that's where the excessive number of options gets in the way, you look at them all trying to figure which are the best and then say fuck it. It's the so called "too many choices" problem.

What they need to do is only offer 1 option per reward type (gold, AP, item, order hall, crafting, world boss, pet battle - 7 things, it's like the maximum a normal human can digest). And then after player competes one of them - respawn it somewhere else after some time until the daily cap is reached (for that ONE mission type). And they should really lower the daily cap. No more dozens of WQ all over the map. Also all caps should be visible and explained to player to give a sense of what's going on with the progression.

Oh and the caps should be daily, to prevent the day before reset thing.

[Deleted]

That would make farming daily ap absolutely mandatory. So really not much of a change from the current system according to you know... the ones who care. If anything it'd make it even more mandatory.

And still, the ones left behind would feel... left behind. It's actually pretty much the same system. Only more limiting so that a tiny minority can play without hurting themselves.

Yeah... I mean... why?

[Elim Garak]

That would make farming daily ap absolutely mandatory. So really not much of a change from the current system according to you know... the ones who care. If anything it'd make it even more mandatory.

And still, the ones left behind would feel... left behind. It's actually pretty much the same system. Only more limiting so that a tiny minority can play without hurting themselves.

Yeah... I mean... why?

It has nothing to do with AP farming. AP farming is completely different Artifact problem. It should be capped on its own. WQ capping has nothing to do with it. it's like you didn't read. WQ was just an example of just one capped system.

That's why.

[Deleted]

It has nothing to do with AP farming. AP farming is completely different Artifact problem. It should be capped on its own. WQ capping has nothing to do with it. it's like you didn't read. WQ was just an example of just one capped system.

That's why.

Sorry, but we were talking about ap farming which is what caused the burnout. How and when did world quest become an issue?

[Elim Garak]

Sorry, but we were talking about ap farming which is what caused the burnout. How and when did world quest become an issue?

So you don't read. Good bye.

[Deleted]

So you don't read. Good bye.

Please find the appropriate thread next time