Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[alturic]

exept its not -its fake problem made by players who felt they need to be super optimal for each encounter - hint they dont need to be.

and blizzard should remove mythic raids to save addicts like that from themselves.

chasing ultra optimalization is what burning you out not game itself.

You can tell who the LFG/Normal raiders are with comments like this. Even taking a step back from "WoW is a game herp derp", why would someone NOT want to do something as optimal (see: efficient) as possible? For 98% of the players out there the time figuring out the optimal setup is done for you. It's just a matter of copying the spec/gear.

I never understood people wanting to be a part of a team but still wanted to use the excuse "I pay for the game just like you do, don't tell me how to play". No, you pay for the game just like we do, but don't join a team just to drag them down with your disregard for the team.

[MoanaLisa]

Reconditioning the mindset of an entire guild is easier said than done. And it's not just "a guild." Nearly every quasi-serious Mythic guild I've ever encountered has a similar prerogative. It's an issue endemic with Mythic raiding in general. You can politely talk about how "those of us in the real world know how to manage our time and this shouldn't be any of Blizzard's concern" but ultimately the systems they leave in place are what lead to the abuses. Even if they aren't utilized in the manner which they intend -- or if players find ways to manipulate their systems to their advantage (MoS+ runs) -- I still feel some of the blame should reside with Blizzard for knowing how people in Mythic guilds play the game and still allowing these systems to exist.

There is always going to be contention as long as the game provides something to play for through essentially endless character progression. That system at heart is designed for casual players who can log in any time, play, and see their character progress in some way, major or minor. It does that very well. I have nothing against raiding or mythic raiding even if I no longer participate but the system shouldn't be changed just to suit their preferences. Traits and AP are a direct response to the valid criticism in Warlords that real character progression completely stopped early on unless you decided to raid. It's very difficult for me to understand how a progression system that is open-ended and responsive to casual players is bad for the game.

Warlords was a failure for just that reason: It was the very essence of "raid or else" with Blizzard attempting to open up raiding as much as they could with stuff like the greatly improved Group Finder and pathing all of the initial progression directly to raiding and little else. It didn't work; raiding failed to prove that what is clearly the best and most challenging content in the game could keep people interested and carry an expansion. So, time to try something else the next expansion: steady slow progression throughout an expansion that gave as much back as you put into it but was careful to give something back to everyone, hard core and ultimate casual alike.

That's the heart of the reaction here. Casual players such as myself--and there are many of us--like the fact that every time we log in, not only will there be something to do but that "something" isn't entirely pointless.

Mythic raiding guilds laying on steep requirements to even stay on the team are a side issue in comparison to how the progression system affects everyone else in the game. Thousands versus millions.

[Jngizu]

Having it on 2-3 different spec is a must for pure dps classes, because Blizzard didn't bother with giving every single spec similar tools for AoE and pure ST.

Pure bullshit. Maybe the top 10 guilds asked for it, but after that, it was only one maxed. Pretty much every class has one spec that is better for all bosses. There are some where it's more disputed because of legendaries etc. But overall, no one asked you to max 3 specs (even 2 was rare).

Do you realize how fucking unfair that would be? All the classes that have only one dps spec only have to max one weapon but others have to max two or three? Mythic raiders are not known to be the most rational people but even them would flip the bird at any guild leader asking them that.

[IceMan1763]

There is always going to be contention as long as the game provides something to play for through essentially endless character progression. That system at heart is designed for casual players who can log in any time, play, and see their character progress in some way, major or minor. It does that very well. I have nothing against raiding or mythic raiding even if I no longer participate but the system shouldn't be changed just to suit their preferences. Traits and AP are a direct response to the valid criticism in Warlords that real character progression completely stopped early on unless you decided to raid. It's very difficult for me to understand how a progression system that is open-ended and responsive to casual players is bad for the game.

Warlords was a failure for just that reason: It was the very essence of "raid or else" with Blizzard attempting to open up raiding as much as they could with stuff like the greatly improved Group Finder and pathing all of the initial progression directly to raiding and little else. It didn't work; raiding failed to prove that what is clearly the best and most challenging content in the game could keep people interested and carry an expansion. So, time to try something else the next expansion: steady slow progression throughout an expansion that gave as much back as you put into it but was careful to give something back to everyone, hard core and ultimate casual alike.

That's the heart of the reaction here. Casual players such as myself--and there are many of us--like the fact that every time we log in, not only will there be something to do but that "something" isn't entirely pointless.

Mythic raiding guilds laying on steep requirements to even stay on the team are a side issue in comparison to how the progression system affects everyone else in the game. Thousands versus millions.

I don't believe that Warlords failed because they spent a lot of time promoting raiding... it failed because they for some reason ignored any other type of content. Garrisons and the Shipyard also just weren't well received and more analogous to a Facebook game than an MMO. The xpac just seemed woefully short on development resources IMO. Picking a fight over flight didn't help things.

I don't hate AP as a system per se, but think it's ridiculous there is no type of cap on the system. It would greatly benefit the mythic raiding environment and have zero effect on 99% of the casual player base. I just don't see there being a ton of casual players who would hit the cap and then wish they could grind more on that one spec for one char.

In other words, the illusion of infinite progression is not worth the negative consequences it has for the entire mythic raiding community, which is larger than I think most people give it credit for. Also, it could be bigger if it were more accessible, and since participation is voluntary, I don't see how that is such a bad thing.

[Eapoe]

There is always going to be contention as long as the game provides something to play for through essentially endless character progression. That system at heart is designed for casual players who can log in any time, play, and see their character progress in some way, major or minor. It does that very well. I have nothing against raiding or mythic raiding even if I no longer participate but the system shouldn't be changed just to suit their preferences. Traits and AP are a direct response to the valid criticism in Warlords that real character progression completely stopped early on unless you decided to raid. It's very difficult for me to understand how a progression system that is open-ended and responsive to casual players is bad for the game.

That's the heart of the reaction here. Casual players such as myself--and there are many of us--like the fact that every time we log in, not only will there be something to do but that "something" isn't entirely pointless.

Mythic raiding guilds laying on steep requirements to even stay on the team are a side issue in comparison to how the progression system affects everyone else in the game. Thousands versus millions.

WHile true in a sense, the devs put requirements on raiders that makes them have to grind the game to progress for why they are playing. Devs have stated that bosses are tuned for 50-54 traits in mind. That's fine if bosses were made uniformally and didn't have different requirements, such as different amounts of healers, tanks, types of dps (melee vs range). They also lost gear balancing when m+ dungeons offer higher thruput dqmage/healing/defensive trinkets and relics than what's offered in raids.
Some of the posts in this thread aren't even about taking away the grind, but discussing a cap on it (something that's been brought up during the PTR). The cap wouldn't be so high as casuals would even reach it, but would most progression would. This also allows things like balancing raids and classes. Instead, Blizz did what they always do and go from 1 extreme to the other.
Devs set the bar players have to reach, the players then decide to do that. As I've said, everyone is at fault and no one is blameless.

[MoanaLisa]

Some of the posts in this thread aren't even about taking away the grind, but discussing a cap on it (something that's been brought up during the PTR). The cap wouldn't be so high as casuals would even reach it, but would most progression would. This also allows things like balancing raids and classes. Instead, Blizz did what they always do and go from 1 extreme to the other.

The psychological problem with caps is that they are universal across the game and if a player doesn't meet them they feel as if they are falling behind; even non-mythic raiders or those who do not raid at all. "If I don't cap out this week I have lost something that I can never get back." That's real. Fail to meet an arbitrary cap too many times and whether you progressed your character or not, there's an element of "Well, fuck, I lost something" and you become more likely to hang it up until the next expansion.

In a practical way you are correct but one of the design reasons for having no caps is to allow players to make their own game and to have everything they do create a potential benefit. There are those out there that are quite content to play all the time and do whatever they do and continue to progress without any connection at all to mythic raiding. And there's no weekly reminder that you lost something because you didn't attain a cap.

EDIT: Also and this is important too: Caps at the end of the day are a gate. Seen from the viewpoint of whether or not a player wants to have their progression gated in every way imaginable or not, removing gates where it fits in with the expected results of the design is not a bad thing. Blizzard is only signalling that players should not play the game in ways they actively dislike. It is not at all beyond reason to expect mythic raiders to be in the neighborhood of 50 traits by this point. "I'm a mythic raider (heroic raider back in the day). I will do what it takes to make my raid group better" is something we used to hear all the time.

[theyanger]

Because you fucking do? Sure, traits didn't matter as much as gear. Doesn't change the fact that Blizzard didn't expect top guilds to farm like crazy and do 5+ split raids. My guild required 3 chars for EN, and even then that was a lot of work. Top 5 guilds asked you to have 5. This is just pure insanity. Are you going to blame Blizzard for that too?

Also M+ were released only one week before M EN, which didn't allow you to loot 20+ ilvl than M EN (unless insanely lucky), since the base ilvl was capped the first week anyway, but please keep talking about a subject you clearly don't understand anything about (see, I can act like a condescending ass too). Do I think the current system is great? No, I don't. Particularly, I wish they didn't create a new grind for the people who already unlocked all their artifact. But I think that the AP system is great and should be kept. I just don't think it can be balanced perfectly between Mythic raiders and casuals. But at the same time, no game can be balanced for both crowds.

Good job avoiding the other points too. If you think getting 54 points was hard and that YOU NEED IT, even outside of the top 100, you clearly are the one who has no clue. Or you're a bad player, stuck in a bad guild (watching your stream, it confirmed me that you indeed are pretty bad), and think you should follow Serenity in everything they do.

EDIT : And here's a solution, keep the same system and the same rates, but instead, make it that every boss killed in a difficulty higher than LFR drops AP on your first kill for that timer. With Mythic giving you a ton of it. That way, Mythic raiders will earn so much AP from raid that they will not have to grind outside of raids and casuals will still have something to work for.

Watching my stream that I haven't streamed on in a while? Thanks fam. Hope you enjoyed the CM guides in mop too.

And if you think you don't NEED 54 traits to kill these bosses, get your fucking head checked. It's not the case that top guilds need MORE crutches than lower guilds, quite the opposite. A top guild could probably kill a lot of these bosses with like 52 traits on their raid or maybe even 50 given enough time (Another week of gear, perhaps), but anyone else? fuck no.

[Eapoe]

The psychological problem with caps is that they are universal across the game and if a player doesn't meet them they feel as if they are falling behind; even non-mythic raiders or those who do not raid at all. "If I don't cap out this week I have lost something that I can never get back." That's real. Fail to meet an arbitrary cap too many times and whether you progressed your character or not, there's an element of "Well, fuck, I lost something" and you become more likely to hang it up until the next expansion.

In a practical way you are correct but one of the design reasons for having no caps is to allow players to make their own game and to have everything they do create a potential benefit. There are those out there that are quite content to play all the time and do whatever they do and continue to progress without any connection at all to mythic raiding. And there's no weekly reminder that you lost something because you didn't attain a cap.

EDIT: Also and this is important too: Caps at the end of the day are a gate. Seen from the viewpoint of whether or not a player wants to have their progression gated in every way imaginable or not, removing gates where it fits in with the expected results of the design is not a bad thing. Blizzard is only signalling that players should not play the game in ways they actively dislike. It is not at all beyond reason to expect mythic raiders to be in the neighborhood of 50 traits by this point. "I'm a mythic raider (heroic raider back in the day). I will do what it takes to make my raid group better" is something we used to hear all the time.

Right now, what you are doing is comparing one psychological issue to another. Sure, you can say players feel like they lost something if they don't make the cap, but the reverse is also true: that if there are no caps that people should be required to play as much and as often as possible to make use of the fact that there is no cap there (burnout). Either way, it is an issue created by the devs and enforced by the players.
For those players you speak of pertaining to playing all the time with no mythic raiding, how does a cap of AP affect them. You are defending a point of people playing to gain power levels for situations that no power gain is necessary. If these people play all the time with no ties to mythic raiding, then they would still hit a cap point, if people playing seldom don't hit their cap then there is no loss as obviously they don't care or not have the time to meet that requirement. This just leads back to a circular arguement of the psychological issues of 1 extreme to the other.
As for your edit: you just stated the basic issue with what is the concern of Ion's statement and the development of the game. You say it's not unheard of for mythic raiders to have 50 traits at this point. The obvious issues with this is that this points out are as follows: forgets Blizzard tunes bosses in mythic around 50-54 traits, assumes mythic raiders only require 1 viable spec, and assumes all bosses meet the exact same raid comp between tanks/healers/melee/range. Caps are a gate system, however this particular one allows balancing of boss encounters and raid mechanics, and the gate itself would have no impact on progression for raiders due to balancing issues being addressed. Let's not forget that caps can also be completely different than just a flat AP cap. They can range from how much AP total you earn, they could just be how much AP you can put into a spec for a given week (earned 2 million your main spec, start putting into offspecs), they could limit how often you have to get gear from m+.
Let's also not overlook that m+ is supposed to be an alternative to raiding (Blizzards very own words), yet they are not true alternatives. 1 has a weekly lockout vs 1 being able to be ran indefinitely thru a week. 1 has limited loot involved vs a never ending loot train thru grinds. 1 has limited AP earned vs 1 with unlimited AP potential. Let's also not overlook previously discussed issues with better loot being obtainable thru endless runs of m+ from itemization and design. As a strict alternative it has failed and is rather something that is required to progress thru the other.-

[Deleted]

Watching my stream that I haven't streamed on in a while? Thanks fam. Hope you enjoyed the CM guides in mop too.

And if you think you don't NEED 54 traits to kill these bosses, get your fucking head checked. It's not the case that top guilds need MORE crutches than lower guilds, quite the opposite. A top guild could probably kill a lot of these bosses with like 52 traits on their raid or maybe even 50 given enough time (Another week of gear, perhaps), but anyone else? fuck no.

No you don't NEED 54 traits. You need good gear. My guild doesn't force any cap and they're on 3/10 mythics. Will they be done anytime soon? Don't think so. Do they care? Nnnope.

[MoanaLisa]

Either way, it is an issue created by the devs and enforced by the players.

We'll have to disagree on just that point. Play style is a social set of instructions created by players.

Blizzard clearly is not designing the game for the convenience of mythic raiders. Nor should they. Do not try and convince me that the mythic raiding community does not set its own standards and requirements for participation. They do.

For the record, it's OK for people to hold differing opinions. However, anyone can just look at the situation and see that "Blizzard's requirements" are primarily constructions and assumptions of the mythic raiding community.

Lastly, I like the idea that killing bosses in the current tier should award AP with the reward scaling with difficulty. That's far more localized and specific than applying caps to everyone in the game. Easy to do as well.

[brunnor]

We'll have to disagree on just that point. Play style is a social set of instructions created by players.

Blizzard clearly is not designing the game for the convenience of mythic raiders. Nor should they. Do not try and convince me that the mythic raiding community does not set its own standards and requirements for participation. They do.

But Blizzard kind of is designing it for them. The fact that points 35-54 are all just straight dps increases(and HP) is what raiders are after. Every single aspect of raiding min/max is gaining damage while not losing too much surviability. There is no way these talents are aimed at anyone besides hardcore players.

IF Blizzard say, just let you get 4 ranks of each talent instead of the 35-54 dps/hp upgrades, I'd agree the system was aimed more where it should be. But so long as the "end" of the AP grind is just flat damage/hp upgrades, it will always be something aimed towards raiders.

I love the idea behind the AP grind and the weapons, but I feel it is far too heavily weighted for raiding due to how the tuning it and what it gives. I hope Blizzard sticks to what it's looking like for ToS where the upgrades are so crazy grindy that it can't be reached. That will be a decent compromise I think to how it is now and where I think it should be.

[Berengil]

Yes it is and they should.be thrown under the bus. Why are you trying to curb this behavior at the expense of everyone else? These people will always seek to exploit every possible avenue available and then complain about it. They can NEVER be satisfied until the game is reduced to a lobby where you raid log. Did you learn nothing from wod? Why should anyone else give a shit that these people cant stop? THROW THEM UNDER THE BUS

I couldn't agree more. Making "Raidlog" viable at the high competitive end of raiding gave us the abortion of an endgame we had in WoD.

The uber-competitive, poopsock for 80 hours a week crowd is a vanishingly small minority of those who raid. F what they want.

Throw them under the bus, indeed.

- - - Updated - - -

If your GM is telling you to do 5 split runs a week, get 54 traits on 2 weapons etc, it's their fault. Some people don't expect you to do that and do just fine

I'd tell them to go f themselves, and then I'd /gquit.

[Saiona]

He is right tho, that the instance is tuned for 54? no problem you can easily get 54 traits but having it on 2-3 different specs and on multiple alts is a players choice blizzard gives the option but doesnt force people to put so much work into it, and yes you got the "power to be gained" opinion but at the end of the day its still the players choice.

Do i think the paragon traits are well designed? no but thats a discussion for a other day.

Yeah no 54 takes alot of time and if I'm in a mythic raid 10 hrs a week and working another 50 hrs a week where do I have the time? Mythic raiding should not requires 100s of hours of dungeon farming. It never has

[Relapses]

Yeah no 54 takes alot of time and if I'm in a mythic raid 10 hrs a week and working another 50 hrs a week where do I have the time? Mythic raiding should not requires 100s of hours of dungeon farming. It never has

Look at the post above yours and realize the mentality of that poster is far more prevalent in this community.

[Sinyc]

https://clips.twitch.tv/warcraft/OpenDugongYouWHY

What a fucking ass. Seriously.

Fire this guy ASAP.

Nice argument backed up with specifics that you didn't like and even better constructive workarounds to these problems.

Typical lazy MMO-C post. It's like you guys don't even try now.

[Glorious Leader]

Look at the post above yours and realize the mentality of that poster is far more prevalent in this community.

Good. Hopefully it is. Offering everyone else reduced experience just so a handful of people can push the bleeding edge of mythic raid progression is asanine. I start mythic raids with my guild this week. I have 40 points into my weapon. Do. Not. Give. A. Single. Fuck.

If you want the bleeding edge mythic experience then prepare to "poop sock". If not then pull up a chair at the casual table. Hey it could be worse. The devs could.finally come to their senses and eliminate gear from mythic raiding or eliminate raiding all together. Both woulf certainlg alleviate the need for you to farm

[Relapses]

Good. Hopefully it is. Offering everyone else reduced experience just so a handful of people can push the bleeding edge of mythic raid progression is asanine. I start mythic raids with my guild this week. I have 40 points into my weapon. Do. Not. Give. A. Single. Fuck.

If you want the bleeding edge mythic experience then prepare to "poop sock". If not then pull up a chair at the casual table. Hey it could be worse. The devs could.finally come to their senses and eliminate gear from mythic raiding or eliminate raiding all together. Both woulf certainlg alleviate the need for you to farm

I'll never understand why you fucking hate Mythic raiders with such a passion. It's borderline personality disorder.

[Eapoe]

We'll have to disagree on just that point. Play style is a social set of instructions created by players.

Blizzard clearly is not designing the game for the convenience of mythic raiders. Nor should they. Do not try and convince me that the mythic raiding community does not set its own standards and requirements for participation. They do.

For the record, it's OK for people to hold differing opinions. However, anyone can just look at the situation and see that "Blizzard's requirements" are primarily constructions and assumptions of the mythic raiding community.

Lastly, I like the idea that killing bosses in the current tier should award AP with the reward scaling with difficulty. That's far more localized and specific than applying caps to everyone in the game. Easy to do as well.

So you're saying that Blizzards own words "tuned with 50-54 traits and 1 legendary in mind" are constructs of the mythic raiding community? You're also saying that every single boss is able to be killed with the same setup of 2 tanks, 4 healers, 14 dps? Let's even go further and assume every dps is melee or rdps in the group as well. These bosses having these requirements are just, simply, the ideas and machinations of raid groups?
The game should not be designed solely for the mythic raid community, but it also shouldn't be solely designed for the casual playerbase as well. Do mythic raid guilds set requirements for their guild members? Sure. For most this means simply being raid ready and geared to kill bosses to progress. AP and weapon traits are part of this. The amount needed of each is determined by design.
I'm not saying players aren't to blame for burnout, but for people to sit there and state that the devs are absolutely blameless is just wrong. This isn't a black and white arguement as people are trying to make it out to be.

[Sanguiris]

Ion is right, just like in sports if you want to be the best you have to put in most of your time into it. These world first guilds don't have job except for playing wow and if they do, well they should think over their priorities.

[Deleted]

wait, people are still playing this game? lul.