Unholy buff Feb 21

[Zensunni]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...93&end=3464999

i dunno. i'm competing just fine with other 90s parsers, thank you.

Your group massively overgeared heroic Krosus, and the fight was only 3:47, which helped your DPS considerably. I reckon on a mythic attempt, you'd have fallen off into the low 600s. I'm not questioning your skill, that's like...a 99th percentile parse for UH on H Krosus. I'm just saying your total DPS is inflated because your group overgeared the encounter by so much.

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I mean I really feel like you're exaggerating. Our unholy dk usually always parses 95% and higher on every fight. Before the buffs he was middle on single target and usually pretty high up on AoE only losing to Ret pally perfect leggo divine storm spam and DHs. Now, he creams AoE fights like no problem. I'd have to take a look at Krosus though and compare. If I get another legendary that isn't Sephuz I'll let you know how we compare accurately, though if I get the helm I'll be broken OP.

To be perfectly blunt, if your UH dk is crushing your group on DPS, then the other DPS are underperforming. Simple as that. You can't cite one anecdotal raiding experience and expect that to overturn the tremendous amount of data on warcraftlogs that says the opposite. Your UH player is just trying harder or has a huge gear advantage.

[spanishninja]

Your group massively overgeared heroic Krosus, and the fight was only 3:47, which helped your DPS considerably. I reckon on a mythic attempt, you'd have fallen off into the low 600s. I'm not questioning your skill, that's like...a 99th percentile parse for UH on H Krosus. I'm just saying your total DPS is inflated because your group overgeared the encounter by so much.

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To be perfectly blunt, if your UH dk is crushing your group on DPS, then the other DPS are underperforming. Simple as that. You can't cite one anecdotal raiding experience and expect that to overturn the tremendous amount of data on warcraftlogs that says the opposite. Your UH player is just trying harder or has a huge gear advantage.

Of course dps will go down over the course of a longer fight, but that is the same case with almost every spec. I know exactly where I would stand in a longer fight, based on our mythic krosus attempts last night. In general I end up in the 640-670k range, and typically within 6-8% of the top DPS and 6-8% of the bottom DPS. That's exactly the definition of middle of the pack, which is perfectly fine in current content. Here's a 2% wipe:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...vHTqj#fight=27

And I don't see the point of saying the heroic kill was quick, so total dps was inflated. If my DPS was inflated, everybody else's would have been too. I'm not saying at all that UH is expected to top meters, all things being equal, but it is certainly not going to be as far bottom as it used to be either. And you most definitely do not have to be top DPS to be considered "competitive" or "useful" to your team.

Simple fact. Before the hotfixes, the top UH parse on mythic Krosus was around 660k. Now the ceiling has been raised by 60-70k. If you don't call that a substantial buff I don't know what to tell you.

[Saltysquidoon]

I really really don't see the point of these last two pages of conversation. Yes after the numbers buff unholy isn't the worst spec in the game it's sitting in a nice comfy middle. Yes frost is still leagues better (thats how it's always been in WoW though, Blizzard prefers the everyone gets a turn style of balance). Yes the spec is still deeply flawed on a mechanical level.
These things don't cancel each other out and they aren't mutually exclusive they can all be true at once.

[Deleted]

you do realize that in current content, sustained dps is much more important than burst right? Mythic Krosus is probably the biggest dps check in Nighthold right now, and it lasts 5:30-6 minutes, and we're doing a lot better in sustained dps tham prior to the hotfix. the issues you talk about with burst dps don't really matter in the bigger picture.

I would like a revamp in the spec mechanics but it is not going to happen in the near future. In the meantime, there are plenty of specs that are doing worse than us when it comes to output.

If you think that as a top DPSer, with decent ilevel and legendaries that anything less than 700k dps on a Mythic boss is good enough, then think again.

If you're one of the top players and top Unholy DKs in the world and have your record score only hit around 750k dps after five minutes and you are virtually the only one, which warriors and rogues can hit at trait level 40+ when they have decent ilevel and trinkets, then I would say that the buffs to UH are not enough.

Very few unholy DK's can even get into a Mythic raiding guild and if you're lucky to be raiding in one, then you're also unlucky to not be progressing in one either, because even now with the buffs, if you're averaging 650k dps on Krosus and you're upper middle or near the top of your raiding team, you're NOT killing mythic Krosus, unless your dps represents the whole raids average.

So my point is this..Blizzard, the buffs were needed, we're viable to be taken on Mythic kills but if we're not a performing class that can make a difference between a kill and not a kill and then this sucks.

Let's look at classes that can make a difference...warriors fury/arms, ass rogues, demon hunters (Darkness OP). If you geared any of these classes, in the right hands and at 45-48 trait levels they should and would out dps you quite significantly on a Mythic progress fight. Where as at 690-740k dps...some of the best parses, we feel as they we've reached our limit, they're just revving up, improving and getting stronger as their trait level goes up.

On Mythic Krosus parses, as they stand...Unholy DK's, with Survial Hunters and Destro warlocks have the lowest average and sadly the lowest representation on this boss.

[spanishninja]

If you think that as a top DPSer, with decent ilevel and legendaries that anything less than 700k dps on a Mythic boss is good enough, then think again.

If you're one of the top players and top Unholy DKs in the world and have your record score only hit around 750k dps after five minutes and you are virtually the only one, which warriors and rogues can hit at trait level 40+ when they have decent ilevel and trinkets, then I would say that the buffs to UH are not enough.

Very few unholy DK's can even get into a Mythic raiding guild and if you're lucky to be raiding in one, then you're also unlucky to not be progressing in one either, because even now with the buffs, if you're averaging 650k dps on Krosus and you're upper middle or near the top of your raiding team, you're NOT killing mythic Krosus, unless your dps represents the whole raids average.

So my point is this..Blizzard, the buffs were needed, we're viable to be taken on Mythic kills but if we're not a performing class that can make a difference between a kill and not a kill and then this sucks.

Let's look at classes that can make a difference...warriors fury/arms, ass rogues, demon hunters (Darkness OP). If you geared any of these classes, in the right hands and at 45-48 trait levels they should and would out dps you quite significantly on a Mythic progress fight. Where as at 690-740k dps...some of the best parses, we feel as they we've reached our limit, they're just revving up, improving and getting stronger as their trait level goes up.

On Mythic Krosus parses, as they stand...Unholy DK's, with Survial Hunters and Destro warlocks have the lowest average and sadly the lowest representation on this boss.

none of what you said changes the fact that you don't need every dps from a raid to do 700k dps single target to kill ANY boss in Nighthold, even at mythic difficulty. I just showed you a log of a 2% M Krosus wipe where five people in my raid were under 600k (mostly due to deaths, and one of them being an alt we brought for darkness). The boss is going down today assuming we get one of our regulars back online attending the raid (nope, he's not any of the top classes you mentioned). The requirement isn't close to being as high as you make it seem. If you do the math, the average DPS requirement for this particular boss if you take 15 dps, 3 heals and 2 tanks is in the 620k range, which unholy DKs were capable of doing even before the hotfix. You might want to check the latest numbers as well, as we have been moving up the charts from the bottom to the middle of the group.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...le=7&boss=1842

You're clearly going by outdated information if you think unholy dks are still bottom DPS. Meanwhile I'd like to see some of your logs to see your raid comp; I bet if you were decent at unholy there is no way you would be at the bottom either.

[Deleted]

Simple fact. Before the hotfixes, the top UH parse on mythic Krosus was around 660k. Now the ceiling has been raised by 60-70k. If you don't call that a substantial buff I don't know what to tell you.

They could balance it all out a little bit more. It's silly if you look at that log you linked where your monk, you and even the elemental shaman actually have to play well to stay in the upper half of the raid, while your warrior and demon hunter are in the 40% and almost at the top of your raid group. I'm not saying "buff UH DKs", but some melee classes are just so powerful it's ridicilous.

[Kendros]

They could balance it all out a little bit more. It's silly if you look at that log you linked where your monk, you and even the elemental shaman actually have to play well to stay in the upper half of the raid, while your warrior and demon hunter are in the 40% and almost at the top of your raid group. I'm not saying "buff UH DKs", but some melee classes are just so powerful it's ridicilous.

DHs are just ridiculously good ATM they have to be brought down a bit, wars are fine they are upper middle of the pack and that with the Guldan trinket.

[Deleted]

none of what you said changes the fact that you don't need every dps from a raid to do 700k dps single target to kill ANY boss in Nighthold, even at mythic difficulty. I just showed you a log of a 2% M Krosus wipe where five people in my raid were under 600k (mostly due to deaths, and one of them being an alt we brought for darkness). The boss is going down today assuming we get one of our regulars back online attending the raid (nope, he's not any of the top classes you mentioned). The requirement isn't close to being as high as you make it seem. If you do the math, the average DPS requirement for this particular boss if you take 15 dps, 3 heals and 2 tanks is in the 620k range, which unholy DKs were capable of doing even before the hotfix. You might want to check the latest numbers as well, as we have been moving up the charts from the bottom to the middle of the group.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...le=7&boss=1842

You're clearly going by outdated information if you think unholy dks are still bottom DPS. Meanwhile I'd like to see some of your logs to see your raid comp; I bet if you were decent at unholy there is no way you would be at the bottom either.

There are 102 Unholy Deathknights in that stat you've linked...compared to 10 times the amount for Frost DK's and over 15 times the amount for Assass Rogues.

In other words to compare 75th percentiles with such a small sample size for Unholy Death Knights is pretty meaningless.

Let's give another crude example to reiterate the same point about why that particular statistic is fairly pointless to gauge how well DK's are doing.

If you look at the 99th percentile it shows that Survival hunters as a viable top DPS spec...but there are only 30 Survival hunters parsed on M Krosus, of which the top spot hunter counts for the top 4 percentiles! Unless there is 1000 logs of different hunters doing similar DPS, you could argue for that particular parse, that hunter got extremely lucky with procs. Of course we'll never know since there are not enough of them out there that would play such a damned spec.

Anyway here are my logs showing me at the bottom of the DPS meters on M Skorpyron...as requested https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done.

And here are my logs on Heroic https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done.

Lastly my point about Mythic Krosus stands. Due to the natures of Orbs, add killing, soaking etc you need some classes to average pretty highly to carry the ones that get bad RNG and can't push above 600k DPS. To simply state that all that's needed is around 620K dps is a fallacy, when in fact you need a percentage of players OVER the 700K to account for bad RNG for your ranged dps, who tend to really suffer on that fight.

[sunbrother]

If you have a 400k log on m skorp you are doing many things wrong.

I have one of the top logs on that mythic and it wasn't particularly difficult to execute. More than 1M should be achievable without much difficulty.

[Deleted]

If you have a 400k log on m skorp you are doing many things wrong.

I have one of the top logs on that mythic and it wasn't particularly difficult to execute. More than 1M should be achievable without much difficulty.

There were 2 things I did wrong on that fight, my pet was passive (I was testing weapon scaling on pet damage and put him on passive to stop hitting the dummy) , you can see it on the pull.
I died to toxic chitin and arcanoslash, i.e.the Tank died, I got aggro.

Skorpyron shows interesting talent choices to cheese that fight.

Lastly the link to M Skorpyron was my attempt at being ironic. It wasn't an attempt to show how poorly DK's perform on aoe.

[spanishninja]

There are 102 Unholy Deathknights in that stat you've linked...compared to 10 times the amount for Frost DK's and over 15 times the amount for Assass Rogues.

In other words to compare 75th percentiles with such a small sample size for Unholy Death Knights is pretty meaningless.

Let's give another crude example to reiterate the same point about why that particular statistic is fairly pointless to gauge how well DK's are doing.

If you look at the 99th percentile it shows that Survival hunters as a viable top DPS spec...but there are only 30 Survival hunters parsed on M Krosus, of which the top spot hunter counts for the top 4 percentiles! Unless there is 1000 logs of different hunters doing similar DPS, you could argue for that particular parse, that hunter got extremely lucky with procs. Of course we'll never know since there are not enough of them out there that would play such a damned spec.

Anyway here are my logs showing me at the bottom of the DPS meters on M Skorpyron...as requested https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done.

And here are my logs on Heroic https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done.

Lastly my point about Mythic Krosus stands. Due to the natures of Orbs, add killing, soaking etc you need some classes to average pretty highly to carry the ones that get bad RNG and can't push above 600k DPS. To simply state that all that's needed is around 620K dps is a fallacy, when in fact you need a percentage of players OVER the 700K to account for bad RNG for your ranged dps, who tend to really suffer on that fight.

there has never been a large sample size for unholy dks in nighthold. By your logic, how can you say that the pre-hotfix data was any more meaningful? Anyway, we will continue to see this trend in the coming weeks as more data is collected. If it doesn't stay this way you can go ahead and call me out on it. Until then, here are the results for mythic kills going back 1 week, which is 6 days after buff and 1 day before buff, and compare the rankings to data for the past 2 weeks. Definitely an upward trend there, as a result of the changes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11/#sample=7

All you have demonstrated by your skorp log is that your AOE isn't as good as your single target. For various reasons, posting Skorp logs is completely irrelevant.

You're still not understand what I said about krosus. I never argued with you that having a few DPS in the raid be above 700k isn't helpful (for reasons such as what you described). But in the end, you still don't need EVERYBODY to be above 700k, and an unholy dk doing something like 640-650k will be comfortably in the middle of the pack in most groups. There's no argument you can make that having an unholy dk is a reason why a kill isn't happening, when there is clear data showing that there are specs that are even lower than middle of the pack.

[Unsound]

there has never been a large sample size for unholy dks in nighthold. By your logic, how can you say that the pre-hotfix data was any more meaningful? Anyway, we will continue to see this trend in the coming weeks as more data is collected. If it doesn't stay this way you can go ahead and call me out on it. Until then, here are the results for mythic kills going back 1 week, which is 6 days after buff and 1 day before buff, and compare the rankings to data for the past 2 weeks. Definitely an upward trend there, as a result of the changes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11/#sample=7

All you have demonstrated by your skorp log is that your AOE isn't as good as your single target. For various reasons, posting Skorp logs is completely irrelevant.

You're still not understand what I said about krosus. I never argued with you that having a few DPS in the raid be above 700k isn't helpful (for reasons such as what you described). But in the end, you still don't need EVERYBODY to be above 700k, and an unholy dk doing something like 640-650k will be comfortably in the middle of the pack in most groups. There's no argument you can make that having an unholy dk is a reason why a kill isn't happening, when there is clear data showing that there are specs that are even lower than middle of the pack.

Judging by the logs you have posted throughout the thread, there is still no point to go UH when frost has a clear advantage.

This is sad since I am not a fan of BoS, but I can't justify going back to UH yet.

[spanishninja]

Judging by the logs you have posted throughout the thread, there is still no point to go UH when frost has a clear advantage.

This is sad since I am not a fan of BoS, but I can't justify going back to UH yet.

it depends on a variety of factors. do you have bis legendaries for unholy but not frost? is your artifact much higher on unholy than frost? if these both apply, UH will still give higher dps for you. We can't really look at the top specs for both and use that as a basis for determining one individual person's decision to play one vs another. I have yet to get a frost legendary, and my frost weapon is 11 points lower than my unholy. Therefore, I am getting better performance by staying unholy. Pretty simple reasoning really.

[Unsound]

it depends on a variety of factors. do you have bis legendaries for unholy but not frost? is your artifact much higher on unholy than frost? if these both apply, UH will still give higher dps for you. We can't really look at the top specs for both and use that as a basis for determining one individual person's decision to play one vs another. I have yet to get a frost legendary, and my frost weapon is 11 points lower than my unholy. Therefore, I am getting better performance by staying unholy. Pretty simple reasoning really.

Fair enough. Although I think since Frost has been better for longer, that more people have higher AP in frost and likely better frost legendaries. At least that is my anecdotal experience.

[Deleted]

In my case...I have 5 legendary items. Sephuz, the poor UH Belt, the boots, the cloak and the Frost leggings (my latest one last week).

Thanks to the much needed buffs on the 22nd, as Unholy I'm now viable for Mythic raiding (barely if you look at the M Skorpyron fight), despite having no throughput legendary items. As frost, I'm barely good enough for the first 4-6 bosses, but I'll need to be carried by the higher performing specs out there.

And you are right Unsound, for the longer term investment as it stands, Frost is both the popular and stronger spec in both ST and AOE situations in Nighthold.

But if you're in my situation, if you're willing to gamble...on the short term (around 3-4 weeks) it's better to bet on the bracers and if they drop...continue the hunt for Frost leggos for the next two months.

[spanishninja]

Fair enough. Although I think since Frost has been better for longer, that more people have higher AP in frost and likely better frost legendaries. At least that is my anecdotal experience.

actually, when legion came out (pre-7.1), frost was absolute garbage compared to unholy. pair that with personal preference and that I got bis unholy legendary the first week N EN was out, that was how I made my decision.

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In my case...I have 5 legendary items. Sephuz, the poor UH Belt, the boots, the cloak and the Frost leggings (my latest one last week).

Thanks to the much needed buffs on the 22nd, as Unholy I'm now viable for Mythic raiding (barely if you look at the M Skorpyron fight), despite having no throughput legendary items. As frost, I'm barely good enough for the first 4-6 bosses, but I'll need to be carried by the higher performing specs out there.

And you are right Unsound, for the longer term investment as it stands, Frost is both the popular and stronger spec in both ST and AOE situations in Nighthold.

But if you're in my situation, if you're willing to gamble...on the short term (around 3-4 weeks) it's better to bet on the bracers and if they drop...continue the hunter for Frost leggos for the next two months.

I think now that you mentioned not having the unholy bracers, what you say makes a lot more sense. Despite Blizzard's nerf, the bracers remain a pretty big modifier for unholy.

[Deleted]

actually, when legion came out (pre-7.1), frost was absolute garbage compared to unholy. pair that with personal preference and that I got bis unholy legendary the first week N EN was out, that was how I made my decision.

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I think now that you mentioned not having the unholy bracers, what you say makes a lot more sense. Despite Blizzard's nerf, the bracers remain a pretty big modifier for unholy.

The bracers make unholy. The belt is now almost worthless.

[Noxinator]

The bracers make unholy. The belt is now almost worthless.

I agree. I have the belt and after I got the 4 set bonus, it really doesn't feel necessary. I don't notice a very big difference when I play without the belt

[spanishninja]

The bracers make unholy. The belt is now almost worthless.

I think the bracers might come back into the picture with T20 (or more accurately, after people stop using 4p T19), at least with the newest changes to the 7.2 artifact traits.

[Deleted]

I agree. I have the belt and after I got the 4 set bonus, it really doesn't feel necessary. I don't notice a very big difference when I play without the belt

Yeah once i realised i'm not FEing very much, i swapped back to boots I also use Sephuz. This legendary system is fucking bollox.