Legion - Subtlety discussion

[shoegazing]

You're right. The hope is that separating pvp from pve in instanced pvp is going to pan out more and more into a better more stable pvp system where healers and tanks aren't OP af.

yeah I'm sure Blizzard has a grand master plan. they've got an entire team of their best designers working on it! it's definitely not just Brian Holinka and Chris Kaleiki stuck in a closet somewhere! hah hah!

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dont bother responding to him anymore elf, i looked at his armory link and he's 818 equipped with no recent pvp experience to speak of on his rogue. he's obviously not even tried at all

I have 6 rogues at 110

Most competitive PvPers went horde in Legion

Here are a few of my horde rogues:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...orcshoe/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gazings/simple

You were saying?

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Djanco just PMe me "why are you trolling about PvP in a thread that is obviously about PvE?"

LOLLLLLLLLLLL guys apparently only PvE discussion is allowed here D: D: D:

[elfporn]

yeah I'm sure Blizzard has a grand master plan. they've got an entire team of their best designers working on it! it's definitely not just Brian Holinka and Chris Kaleiki stuck in a closet somewhere! hah hah!

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I have 6 rogues at 110

Most competitive PvPers went horde in Legion

Here are a few of my horde rogues:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...orcshoe/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...gazings/simple

You were saying?

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Djanco just PMe me "why are you trolling about PvP in a thread that is obviously about PvE?"

LOLLLLLLLLLLL guys apparently only PvE discussion is allowed here D: D: D:

i'm not defending them per say, i think the class development of legion has aimed high and missed the mark overall - they need more attention to individual specs, by magnitudes. Then there's the legendary system which has become a disaster with any number of easy to implement solutions that they just don't think will work because they don't want to have been wrong.

My opinion on sub is that the legion direction is a good one, but implementation has sucked and the spec is full of bugs. It's still fun to play and you can still setup huge burst (40% finality DFA's) but yea, they should have easily been able to do better.

[shaunika123]

no, in tbc people used combat until you were able to get glaives. in wrath, sub was nerfed right out the door because of the honor amoung thieves bug and left that like that until cata. everyone played assassin then. and the reason they cater to pve noobs like us is because we outnumber you. if you want hard numbers you can direct yourself to arenamate where you'll find there are only about 1000 players from each region in any bracket over 1200 rating. it's dead now. go play league.

HARP wasnt exactly a combat spec and that's what people used(and the occasional assasination) and then in s3-4 they were all sub, glaive or not
in wrath lot of people and comps used sub in later seasons, especially with pve gear (remember reckful's world first 3k rating? that was with sub), but yes assa was the most prevalent one
in cata it was almost always sub aside from s9 where assa was ok
all of mop and wod was basically sub (and some combat in wod)

[shoegazing]

i'm not defending them per say, i think the class development of legion has aimed high and missed the mark overall - they need more attention to individual specs, by magnitudes. Then there's the legendary system which has become a disaster with any number of easy to implement solutions that they just don't think will work because they don't want to have been wrong.

My opinion on sub is that the legion direction is a good one, but implementation has sucked and the spec is full of bugs. It's still fun to play and you can still setup huge burst (40% finality DFA's) but yea, they should have easily been able to do better.

the problem is that Legion Sub has its burst windows and CC completely divorced from its openers from Stealth so there is zero reason to ever play like a rogue and use hit and run tactics when you don't need to play that way to get your burst and you don't need to play that way to get your control -- just blow another Dance charge and you're good to keep drooling on your W key and 12345 until your opponent falls over

the problem is not that it isn't effective, the problem is that it plays more like a frost DK with blind than like a rogue

[Deleted]

I'd be willing to bet you're looking through those rose tinted glassed at HFC sub where we dominated ridiculously over every single spec(along with mages) due to soulcap and the ring.

Sub wasn't the worst designed spec, but it certainly wasnt fun before hfc, it was struggling to maintain against the competition at best. Then hfc happened. The only other time sub shined was during cata, in particular dragonsoul.

You seem to be confusing fun with good. And not even very well.

WoD Subtlety was actually a really nice class to play even prior to (actually hated Soul Capacitor) Hellfire Citadel. The thought processes and timings were all there. I loved revolving around that one minute burst in PvE (burst-and-control in PvP). Subtlety just frustrates me now. It's garbage to play.

[shoegazing]

You seem to be confusing fun with good. And not even very well.

WoD Subtlety was actually a really nice class to play even prior to (actually hated Soul Capacitor) Hellfire Citadel. The thought processes and timings were all there. I loved revolving around that one minute burst in PvE (burst-and-control in PvP). Subtlety just frustrates me now. It's garbage to play.

PvErs are mostly (not all of them, but many) incapable of distinguishing fun and good. You can't complain about the mechanics of a spec and the way it plays without hordes of people telling you "their damage is good right now so shut up, if you aren't having fun it's because you're playing badly"

Completely incapable of understanding anything beyond rotations, meters, sims, etc... just like Blizzard's class designers that handed us this literal pile of garbage they call Subtlety Rogue in Legion... designed for nothing more than PvEing at raid bosses, no consideration given at all to the people who have played the spec for over a decade in PvP and our expectations for how it should play

[RobertoCarlos]

PvErs are mostly (not all of them, but many) incapable of distinguishing fun and good. You can't complain about the mechanics of a spec and the way it plays without hordes of people telling you "their damage is good right now so shut up, if you aren't having fun it's because you're playing badly"

Completely incapable of understanding anything beyond rotations, meters, sims, etc... just like Blizzard's class designers that handed us this literal pile of garbage they call Subtlety Rogue in Legion... designed for nothing more than PvEing at raid bosses, no consideration given at all to the people who have played the spec for over a decade in PvP and our expectations for how it should play

Think they will answer any serious questions in the upcoming Holinka Q&A?

Or just highly censor it and dribble in the typical "Wow cool what can I spend my honor tokens on in 7.2??"

[shoegazing]

Think they will answer any serious questions in the upcoming Holinka Q&A?

Or just highly censor it and dribble in the typical "Wow cool what can I spend my honor tokens on in 7.2??"

there is literally zero point zero percent chance that they address any substantive rated PvP concerns in the PvP Q&A

it's going to be the same as every single other PvP Q&A they have done, i.e. "please Holinka will there be Ashran in Legion? what can you tell us about the gimmicky PvP brawls? what are you doing to make PvP more fun and accessible for PvE players like me? will you bring back old AV? will you please prune more CCs so that I can smash my face into my dps rotation while PvPing without having to pay attention to anything else?" etc etc etc

they will dodge every single question related to class design, ability pruning, dumbed down / homogenized playstyles, etc... just like they always do

[ymirsson]

PvErs are mostly (not all of them, but many) incapable of distinguishing fun and good. You can't complain about the mechanics of a spec and the way it plays without hordes of people telling you "their damage is good right now so shut up, if you aren't having fun it's because you're playing badly"

Completely incapable of understanding anything beyond rotations, meters, sims, etc... just like Blizzard's class designers that handed us this literal pile of garbage they call Subtlety Rogue in Legion... designed for nothing more than PvEing at raid bosses, no consideration given at all to the people who have played the spec for over a decade in PvP and our expectations for how it should play

Why would anyone ever listen to you more then 14 seconds when all you excrete is populistic hyperbole?

[RobertoCarlos]

there is literally zero point zero percent chance that they address any substantive rated PvP concerns in the PvP Q&A

it's going to be the same as every single other PvP Q&A they have done, i.e. "please Holinka will there be Ashran in Legion? what can you tell us about the gimmicky PvP brawls? what are you doing to make PvP more fun and accessible for PvE players like me? will you bring back old AV? will you please prune more CCs so that I can smash my face into my dps rotation while PvPing without having to pay attention to anything else?" etc etc etc

they will dodge every single question related to class design, ability pruning, dumbed down / homogenized playstyles, etc... just like they always do

If i see any questions even close too "I find my rotation too difficult and feel like there is too much CC in the game" I'm gona throw something

[shoegazing]

Why would anyone ever listen to you more then 14 seconds when all you excrete is populistic hyperbole?

that's rich, given that your post is 100% devoid of any actual claim or argument beyond your cheap and easily ignored ad hominem

[ymirsson]

Im just adjusting to my opposition, you only repeat that pvp is superior. How original.

I'm actually trying to compile that list, but it takes much more time then i thought.

[shoegazing]

If i see any questions even close too "I find my rotation too difficult and feel like there is too much CC in the game" I'm gona throw something

My favorite is when you complain about all the utility and control that Blizzard pruned and some PvE sycophant responds with "you only need 6 or 7 buttons to have an engaging dps rotation so I don't get why you're so upset about all the pruning"

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Im just adjusting to my opposition, you only repeat that pvp is superior. How original.

I'm actually trying to compile that list, but it takes much more time then i thought.

That's funny because I haven't once claimed that PvP is superior.

My only claim is that PvP has been neglected (ok, more like outright ignored) by the class designers who are completely ignorant that Subtlety Rogue has been a popular PvP spec for 12 years while it has only been popular in PvE relatively recently.

I recommend you work on your reading comprehension.

P.S. your list will be a complete joke. The number of instances where PvP was screwed to benefit PvE dwarfs the number of instances of the reverse phenomenon by a factor of 100. Such as when Blizzard buffed both Arms and Enhance damage in the 6.2 patch despite the fact that Arms/Enhance/Rdruid had just won the arena world championship a few weeks prior, LOL. You PvE fans have no freaking clue how good you have it. Every single thing in this game is catered just to you. For you to argue that PvE has been ruined by PvP more than PvP has been removed by PvE is completely laughable to anyone with any modicum of objectivity, and demonstrates your thorough cluelessness.

Here's another example, Celestalon from the Legion Alpha Class Feedback forum said "We want Subtlety Rogue to appeal to a wider audience in Legion"

Who do you think that wider audience is, for whom they completely redesigned this once incredible spec that I played for over a decade? That would be you, the PvE player. Because it wasn't enough to have 33/34 specs in the game designed for PvE above PvP, it just had to be all 34/34 (now 36/36) that are designed for PvE first with PvP as nothing but an afterthought.

[kalaratic]

they wanted to make the spec accessible to more rogues, and you can't really blame them for that when you look at how little gamplay there was in the other 2 specs. talents like gloomblade and master of shadows can create bridges to help the mut and combat rogues get a footing into sub without having to focus on things like positionals or energy pooling (as long as those talents were always the weaker option)

what you can blame them for is the way they killed sub around this time last year without giving it another full rework. they came out and said "hey guys we failed. so were gonna just keep this same idea that failed and give you charges for dance instead of a passive one ^_^". these fuckers came out on the blizzcon screen and said were gonna fucking WEAVE in legion without giving a thought to the gameplay itself. i don't think there's anything more that can be said about this spec that hasn't, but it's nice to let it out every so often as a memorial to one of the best specs the game has ever seen.

it's such a shame that the person in charge of sub this expansion was such a stubborn man-child, or we could have gotten real iteration on a spec that so badly needed it.

[shoegazing]

they wanted to make the spec accessible to more rogues, and you can't really blame them for that when you look at how little gamplay there was in the other 2 specs. talents like gloomblade and master of shadows can create bridges to help the mut and combat rogues get a footing into sub without having to focus on things like positionals or energy pooling (as long as those talents were always the weaker option)

what you can blame them for is the way they killed sub around this time last year without giving it another full rework. they came out and said "hey guys we failed. so were gonna just keep this same idea that failed and give you charges for dance instead of a passive one ^_^". these fuckers came out on the blizzcon screen and said were gonna fucking WEAVE in legion without giving a thought to the gameplay itself. i don't think there's anything more that can be said about this spec that hasn't, but it's nice to let it out every so often as a memorial to one of the best specs the game has ever seen.

it's such a shame that the person in charge of sub this expansion was such a stubborn man-child, or we could have gotten real iteration on a spec that so badly needed it.

They originally wanted to make Dance a passive that would proc off finishers (LOL LOL LOL) and prune Blind (LOL LOL LOL) and prune Shadowstep (LOL LOL LOL). They are 100% oblivious to Rogue PvP, I doubt there is anyone in their entire company that has played a Rogue above 2.2k rating in arena because those horrible ideas would have been shot down in the first 10 seconds if there were in fact someone with a clue in the room.

As for accessibility, screw accessibility. We are a pure dps class with 3 specs. Combat and Assassin have always been plenty accessible. We already have 2/3 specs designed for people with mental deficiencies so why is it necessary to make that 3/3? It's a pure dps class, there was always room for a spec that takes a little more effort to learn. We have artifacts locking us into our specs in this expansion anyway. Let the combat and assassin rogues play combat and assassin spec. Sub wasn't inaccessible before it just required a bit more research to play it properly as opposed to semi-random button mashing.

But you know how it is, Blizzard can't accept anything that burdens their end user with excessive thinking (defined as >85 IQ)

[ymirsson]

Who do you think that wider audience is, for whom they completely redesigned this once incredible spec that I played for over a decade?

Your sub spec was the same for a decade? You are more drunk and angry than i previously assumed.

and i never claimed that pve was more or more often "ruined" by pvp then reverse. I just mirrored the term you used, because drama.
Because before anything else you consistently reinforce every bad stereotype one could nurture about pvp and especially pvp players.

[shoegazing]

Your sub spec was the same for a decade? You are more drunk and angry than i previously assumed.

and i never claimed that pve was more or more often "ruined" by pvp then reverse. I just mirrored the term you used, because drama.
Because before anything else you consistently reinforce every bad stereotype one could nurture about pvp and especially pvp players.

Where did I claim it was unchanged before? Once again you haven't got a substantive argument to make without resorting to placing words in my mouth.

The problem isn't that they changed it. The problem is that they changed it into something that doesn't even resemble a rogue anymore. I'm honestly surprised they didn't prune Stealth while they were at it, because they pruned just about every thing else that made us play like a rogue.

This isn't a Subtlety rogue anymore, it's dps_melee_leather_3, and that's pretty much how Blizzard sees it. #ClassFantasy was just a lie to sell more dumbed down trash to morons ("look at the flashy new animations! pay no attention to your gutted spellbook!"), these classes are all designed first and foremost for raiding with anything else being an afterthought.

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WoW was never a good game for PvP from the start. It always was a system of bandaids taped over a giant festering wound of a game not designed for the logistics of a true PvP game.

WoW PvP used to be incredible before Blizzard ruined it. Here's a history lesson so that you can get a clue before you embarrass yourself further:

[zaino]

PvErs are mostly (not all of them, but many) incapable of distinguishing fun and good. You can't complain about the mechanics of a spec and the way it plays without hordes of people telling you "their damage is good right now so shut up, if you aren't having fun it's because you're playing badly"

Completely incapable of understanding anything beyond rotations, meters, sims, etc... just like Blizzard's class designers that handed us this literal pile of garbage they call Subtlety Rogue in Legion... designed for nothing more than PvEing at raid bosses, no consideration given at all to the people who have played the spec for over a decade in PvP and our expectations for how it should play

I think that the current way sub works for PvE isnt terrible.

But seeing how it plays in pve in having a fluid rotation for your shadow dance makes it sound like a nightmare for pvp because nothing is really fluid in pvp the way it is in pve

im not even sure how sub pvp could be improved without massively revamping pve sub. What a shite situation to be in.

[ymirsson]

AH yes, te good old "blizzard ruined feature X, just recently" hyperbole. Why not post some memes while you're at it?
I'm sure those videos are amazing to look at, but so are the Transformers movies.


It is amazing, single lines of mature discussion buried in heaps of useless dung.

The problem isn't that they changed it. The problem is that they changed it into something that doesn't even resemble a rogue anymore.

I'm not exactly sure what defines "a rogue" but your obvious problem is that when people have a different view of a subject then you have, they are automatically inferior.

[elfporn]

PvErs are mostly (not all of them, but many) incapable of distinguishing fun and good. You can't complain about the mechanics of a spec and the way it plays without hordes of people telling you "their damage is good right now so shut up, if you aren't having fun it's because you're playing badly"

Completely incapable of understanding anything beyond rotations, meters, sims, etc... just like Blizzard's class designers that handed us this literal pile of garbage they call Subtlety Rogue in Legion... designed for nothing more than PvEing at raid bosses, no consideration given at all to the people who have played the spec for over a decade in PvP and our expectations for how it should play

i would like to slide in here and deposit my opinion: I think ass is a trash spec right now. I detest the fact that they've turned it into a DoT spec. It was the most enjoyable spec to play in WoD, though it lacked depth, it was fun and uncomplicated to play (and dispatch was awesome).

As a PvEer i detest ass even though it's the best, and enjoy both outlaw and sub immensely, though sub has shitloads of bugs