Greece economic woes worsen as IMF says greece should have left Eurozone

[Deleted]

You continue to offer nothing to the conversation but empty insults. Sorry that you are butthurt by my little references to German history. As a famous Greek writer told in his book "Mauthauzen" ( a well known extermination camp) and I'm quotting: "if you put the nazi concentration camps at the center of a circle with 50 kilometers diameter 3/4 of Germany is inside these circles. And the rest of it knew what was going on and never did anything about it".

So since you wanna hold me accountable for something economic that happened 40-50 years ago why not hold you accountable for something that happened 70 yrs ago esp since the survivors still exist today which shows that many others could have been with us had they not fallen to genocide.

Yes you don't like to hear the truth it seems.

what a complete horseshit. what the f*** are you talking about? there is nothing to add to this conversation. your government is responsible and you're the one they got fcked. the butthurt is all yours. throwing out random crap about germany and repeating it doesnt add to the argument at all.

[Glorious Leader]

No, as incendiary as his rhetoric is, this isn't the problem with Greece. The problem with Greece is Germany, as it is for most of the periphery nations. The whole Eurozone economic policy is set to benefit Germany and its mercantalist trade policy at the expense of the weaker European nations. Thus Spain still has 19% unemployment and Italy has had zero growth since it joined the eurozone.

If Germany purposefully engineers its economy to run a trade surplus (which it is doing, and no its not because they produce goods people want to buy, that's just nonsense in economic terms), then other nations must run a corresponding deficit, and a deficit equals taking on more debt (German surpluses are recycled into loans to periphery nations to buy German goods). If that imbalance lasts long enough then the indebted countries economies will implode due to the unsuitability of that debt. This would not matter too much if they were not part of the Eurozone as they could utilize fiscal and monetary tools to counter German merchantalism, alas they are a part of it so they cannot, and the threat of a significant short term economic shock keeps them from leaving.

Right now Germany is a great big boil on the global economy causing severe imbalances across many nations, and it needs lancing. Unfortunately Germany doesn't want to change, and doesn't want to even admit to what it is doing.

This is really key and people dont seem to get some very basic facts. If germany runs a trade surplus OTHER NATIONS BY DEFINITION MUST RUN A DEFECIT. Double entry book keeping. All sums to zero. Not every nation can run a surplus.

[Acidbaron]

Your post would have been true 7-8 years ago but a lot has changed since. What hasn't changed is people being fanatics and haters. You have an impression of Greece that we re all tax evading thieves and scammers which is entirely not true. You also have a weird impression that Greeks are a holo country where no one works and everyone lives a magic life. I invite you to come and see for yourself what life is after 8 years full austerity.

Now we can sit here and argue or face some base facts:
A) there will NEVER be investment so there will NEVER be new money and jobs in a country where taxes can reach 84% for corporate income
B) there will never be trust for the EU and/or governments when people's money was literally confiscated overnight in the name of PSI (private sector involvement) to save the banks that had invested in toxic bonds.
C) no one can ever repay you or start repaying when they don't have enough money for food. If I have 100€ and you put 84€ tax I won't pay it regardless I will feed my children instead. I wonder how can so many bright brains not see it.
D) regardless of all the hateful insults, Greece is paying back its loans to date with heavy interest rates to our "benefactors". The fact that the markets continue the assault of Greek economy is because certain German politicians like the minister of Econ can't shut up for 24h without slandering the country.

So this is it take it or leave it. To be honest Greeks pay and want to pay. But when you make them unable to pay is when there will be problems. And that time is near and that's a there is to it not all the bullshit about fat wallets and fat wages etc.

P.S. Is this EU really the one we desire? Remotely similar countries randomly surviving depending on location?
P.S.2 is it not EU boarders in the Aegean that EU is not concerned that we have dog fights with Turkey every day? Wouldn't that money better be spent in repaying debt? So why not push Turkey to stop?

Again i repeat what i said before, the problem is you need better representation at the negotiating table. The individuals send by the Greek people did a poor job, a lot of these things depend on good will and credibility what they all lack.

A lot of those points came to be because the talks fall flat and when that happens both sides are to blame not just one

[Deleted]

The combined effects of misinformation bad education and seer stupidity make an explosive mix coupled with your selfie avatar.

it seems that no matter what arguments are being made, your one-celled brain pushes itself into a certain direction anyway. quite pathetic to keep referring to my avatar to enforce your argument. but it's ok, i understand. it must be the explosive butthurt affecting your mental judgment.

[Deleted]

D) regardless of all the hateful insults, Greece is paying back its loans to date with heavy interest rates to our "benefactors". The fact that the markets continue the assault of Greek economy is because certain German politicians like the minister of Econ can't shut up for 24h without slandering the country.

This is complete and utter fabrication. The interest paid by Greece is - thanks to concessions after concessions after concessions by the rest of the Euro zone - actually lower than that of Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and not much higher than that of Germany:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...-mountain.html

[Deleted]

Calling my post "fabricated" and then quitting telegraph of all things. I'm sure the Sun also hosts great articles and the onion too since that's your level of comprehension. Thanks for complementing all my other points though

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All you have been doing in this thread is post insults. I am very sorry that you look like a dog behave like a rat and apparently live in a sewer as you call it but that's not my problem is it. There are special places for people like you and special doctors that can help. Seriously go away mate and once again sorry for your dog face.

hahaha. thats what you come up with? LOOOL

as i said. a pathetic piece of garbage, thats what you are and yes please fck off. you have added nothing to this thread at all. i am just making sure you get it.

[GreenJesus]

It's the financial institution's responsibility to make the judgement if a loan is secure or not.

They didn't and they should have paid for their greed.

Risk is positively related to reward. The more risk, the more reward. Investors take a risk like investing in Greece if the rate of return is higher than a safer country. Making this investment on its own would be a bad idea, but investing in a risky asset can be a way to diversify and increase the expected portfolio return.

[Deleted]

Calling my post "fabricated" and then quitting telegraph of all things. I'm sure the Sun also hosts great articles and the onion too since that's your level of comprehension.

The word you searched for and didn't quite find is 'quoting' not 'quitting' Einstein. The data btw comes from Bruegel, the assessment from an ECB board member and I'm very much done stooping to your level of idiocy.

[Fuiking]

Ofc I stopped paying as I don't live there anymore and not being taxed there any more. Any other slanders you would like to post?

Bloody jealous, if i would immigrate i would still have to pay some taxes from my old country... now, if i was foreign from a certain number of countries *cough Turkey, Marocco *cough* id still get moneyz from the government... geuss which country has been really retarded for the past 50 years by doing that.

[shrunken]

Europeans sure hate to pay their debts, according to this thread. What a strange people.

[Deleted]

Who would've thought..

[Flarelaine]

If Germany purposefully engineers its economy to run a trade surplus (which it is doing, and no its not because they produce goods people want to buy, that's just nonsense in economic terms), then other nations must run a corresponding deficit, and a deficit equals taking on more debt (German surpluses are recycled into loans to periphery nations to buy German goods).

You blame Germany for a trade surplus. If you ran a business, would you strive to make a profit? If you ran a government, would you accept a deficit to help other countries?

Germany can run a trade surplus because people actually buy their stuff despite the fact that they are more expensive than competing products. Deal with it.

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This is really key and people dont seem to get some very basic facts. If germany runs a trade surplus OTHER NATIONS BY DEFINITION MUST RUN A DEFECIT. Double entry book keeping. All sums to zero. Not every nation can run a surplus.

So what do you expect Germany to do? Should the government regulate German companies to make them artificially unsuccessful?

[Deleted]

You blame Germany for a trade surplus. If you ran a business, would you strive to make a profit? If you ran a government, would you accept a deficit to help other countries?

Germany can run a trade surplus because people actually buy their stuff despite the fact that they are more expensive than competing products. Deal with it.

Wow you actually know §1 of German constitution? Countries and humans aren't business and Germany more than any other should try to never be cold towards other countries ever again. The whole Capitalistic system could only happen thanks to the accumulation created by raiding 3rd world countries. It's time to open borders and help all people in the world instead of closing off, hiding on the self mutilating machine western society created.

[Flarelaine]

Wow you actually know §1 of German constitution? Countries and humans aren't business and Germany more than any other should try to never be cold towards other countries ever again. The whole Capitalistic system could only happen thanks to the accumulation created by raiding 3rd world countries. It's time to open borders and help all people in the world instead of closing off, hiding on the self mutilating machine western society created.

So what do you expect the Bundesregierung should do in the matter? Should they warn Siemens in stern terms not to run a profit next year or else?

Also just checked Artikel 1 and there is not a single word about economic competition being forbidden. We are living in a society that is built on economic competetion. If you don't like it, you can try Venezuela but I assure you they are much, much worse off than Greece.

[Deleted]

So what do you expect the Bundesregierung should do in the matter? Should they warn Siemens in stern terms not to run a profit next year or else?

Indeed to stop economic growth would be a very good and necessary start as anyone interested in humanities knows. Marx, Weber, Marcuse... this was what the whole 68' revolution was about.

[Flarelaine]

Indeed to stop economic growth would be a very good and necessary start as anyone interested in humanities knows. Marx, Weber, Marcuse... this was what the whole 68' revolution was about.

And it failed.

Economic growth is necessary for social mobility. Without economic growth, the economy becomes a zero-sum game. Growth means there is a larger pie. It does not mean everyone will be better off but as long as there is growth it is possible to have more people moving up than down. Without growth you can only move up at the expense of another.

[Deleted]

And it failed.

Economic growth is necessary for social mobility. Without economic growth, the economy becomes a zero-sum game. Growth means there is a larger pie. It does not mean everyone will be better off but as long as there is growth it is possible to have more people moving up than down. Without growth you can only move up at the expense of another.

What game do you refer to? What is it worth when a winner also requires a loser? What larger pie? Nothing got better all got worse - do you know the current unequal statistics? You think that is fair or justified in any means? What you write makes no sense it's contradicting itself with your very last sentence. Read some social science literature, you will quickly see what this is about. You can even read Adam's neo-liberalism vision and see why this failed. I am speechless how ignorant people are who live on cost on so many other people and yet think they are the good people... Terrible.

For German speakers I recommend reading P.M. - Subcoma - a fantastic read and you will get a very clear picture of what is wrong and how we can deal with it.

[Glorious Leader]

And it failed.

Economic growth is necessary for social mobility. Without economic growth, the economy becomes a zero-sum game. Growth means there is a larger pie. It does not mean everyone will be better off but as long as there is growth it is possible to have more people moving up than down. Without growth you can only move up at the expense of another.

At some point sooner or later youll have to figure out a way to take your foot off the gas pedal

[Slant]

Indeed to stop economic growth would be a very good and necessary start as anyone interested in humanities knows. Marx, Weber, Marcuse... this was what the whole 68' revolution was about.

Yeah, those 68ers? They've grown up now. They're leading figures in politics and largely responsible for the surplus and success we've had in recent years.

[Slant]

At some point sooner or later youll have to figure out a way to take your foot off the gas pedal

That's the thing, though. We don't have the foot on the pedal. We're just coasting. That's why we can feed Greece and a million refugees and still make profit. Would you like to speculate what it would look like if we actually got serious about reinvesting that shit?

Here's the thing... the only way to run a deficit for us at this point would be to massively reinvest the money we have. To a point were we have to take loans to cover the reinvestments. Two things about that... a) our infrastructure would improve even further than it already is. Which means we'd be even more ahead of the competition than we already are. b) those reinvestments? would stay within Germany. Nobody else would see the money, because frankly, who'd heard of Greeks or Italians being super famous for IT technology and shit? I mean, what do you think we're looking for when we reinvest the money? The Dutch would probably get way more offers than Italy or Greece. If we don't just keep it in house. And that would mean we'd speed up the money cycle and put it in overdrive. We'd make even more profit at the end of it and so on and so forth.

It's like monopoly... everytime the money passes the Government, they cha-chink a bit of it. Speed the cycle up and the Government gets more money. So, no idea how you want us to run a deficit outside of actually telling companies to start sucking. Which we can't do, as we're still living in a country with a free market. So, go ahead, tell me how to fix Germany's problem of doing things right?

It's like FC Bayern.. they run away in the league every year. But it doesn't even matter what they do, they don't win because they're that good, they win because the rest of the league is that shite.