Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Ainyan]

I wouldn't want to play as much and go nowhere but hey to each his own as long as you're having fun everything is fine.

Sorry I don't consider not even accomplishing heroic with all that time investment particularly fun. Heroic clear and some alt action is where most weekend only players I know are but again it's fine as long as you don't mind it.

The aforementioned time investment by the other poster, 4-5 days with 5-6 hours was in prior addons easily adequate to reach a ranking way better than 400-500 even for relatively speaking not very skill heavy rosters. Now obviously played time massively increased in both terms of length and "efficiency". I personally think anything above a 30 hour weekly investment is quite unreasonable for such a bad ranking.

So you think the only worthwhile time spent in the game is while raiding? I think that's a waste of a great game. There's far more content than just raids. I mean - sure, I could find a Mythic guild. I could raid in a Mythic guild. I've done it before - a very decently ranked one, in fact, when there was far more rankings competition than there is now. And I got sick and tired of devoting all of my time to raiding. I much prefer how it is now - 3 hours on Tuesday, 3 hours on Wednesday, and the rest of my time devoted to alts, to achievement and transmog farming, to just sitting in Dalaran and having long and enjoyable conversations with my guildies, to running random M+ with people for shits and monkies, so forth and so on. Maybe that's a waste for you - for me, it's a nice way to blow off steam after working on a job all week (in the US, a base work week is 40 hours, fyi) and working on my Master's degree all week.

I'm sorry you don't approve of all of the time I spend outside of Nighthold. Thankfully, I don't need your approval. I do appreciate you helping me make my point though. All this massive amount of time that I and my guildies are "wasting" not raiding, and we still have quite a few people with maxed weapons, and a whole lot more at 40+ - and we don't even really try. ^.^

[Deleted]

The burnout won't "come eventually" if people are able to control themselves.

That's true for a good chunk of players. The problem is that if you want to do mythic you pretty much needs 50ish traits on your raid in order to meet DPS checks. Given the difficulty gap between heroic and mythic players who want to do mythic are left with 3 options:

1. Go farm AP to get 54 traits
2. Pray to the RNG gods that in a couple of months you'll have gotten enough gear to account for the lack of traits(unlikely to happen)
3. Give up on the idea of mythic and just clear heroic in 2 hours every week and log off

With the changes in 7.2(assuming they go live in a similar way as they are on the PTR) the situation is going to improve but until then people who don't want to farm M+ are a tad fucked by the tuning, especially DPS.

[Flurryfang]

This is circular logic. Mythic content is supposed to be the HARDEST content in the game. And what does that mean? It means tuned around the best gear, the most POTs, (formerly the most resistances), DPS checks, HPS checks, skills and knowledge of mechanics. This is always how the game works. So why on earth are you claiming that somehow this is new and that it is the players fault for having to meet such high standards for mythic content? That is the whole point. It is the game developers who have to make the game in order to please both casuals and "hard core" or "competitive" players. All games work this way. There are scrubs who play overwatch a few times a day and then there are 'l33t sn1pers'. Come on man. You can't make the game hollowed out to a point where just playing a few hours makes you a 'l33t raider'. And this is the mentality that I see behind all these folks who somehow want to blame mythic raiders for being mythic raiders. What on earth does them desiring to be the best at the game have to do with you?

This argument that mythic raiders are the ones ruining the game for everyone else is nonsense, especially now after all the things Blizzard has done to make raiding open to everybody.

Folks playing the game in their own way shouldn't care about what everyone else is doing. Yet there are folks in this thread who are using the way they play as some argument for how everybody else should play which is hypocritical. Folks who are casual shouldn't need 54 traits to do casual content. Yet here they are complaining about mythic raiders who work to get 54 traits because they need it for mythic content. They need it because the game is designed around it. How does any of that have anything to with you if you never plan on attempting or even finishing mythic content, except maybe to farm it in a future xpac?

Again, this is all blizzards fault. They are the ones who tried this experiment with AP in Legion and therefore they have to take the blame and the credit for how it plays out. No players I am aware of asked for Artifact Weapons or AP.

Ohh i don't think anybody is trying to say, that mythic raiders is ruinning the game for everybody else. What is trying to be pushed forward is that mythic raiders are ruining the game for themselfs and that they should not try to push changes, that will make other aspects of the game worse just so they can be stopped from ruining the their own experience.

I am blaming the mythic raiders, because while the games attitude towards playing have changed, the mythic players mentality about it have stayed the same. Blizzard have tried to increased the amount of content in the game and the maximum amount of content you can do everyday, but instead of setting their own cap at how much gaming is enjoyable, some mythic guilds are still trying to do as much as possible, when they really should have looked at what was good enough for themselfs.

Universal rewards have a universal effect on all the players. Just because it is only top mythic players who farm to lvl 54 in the opening weeks of NH, the AP leveling path is still something, which is gained by the average player, just over time. If you want to change the way AP works or how long it is worth getting, then you will change the experience of all players, not just the mythic players.

You might be a bit limited to who you talk to in the game, but most people in both my guilds (one normal raiding focused and one heroic/mythic focused) are very happy about AP and the artifact. It is improving the game outside of raiding and gives people a reward to go after. No longer is there a dead period 2-3 months into an expansion/patch, where there is nothing outside raiding that will increase your power in anyway. You can now be a scrub with a very slow raiding schedule and still get more powerfull over time.

Edit: It all comes down to the old saying "Just because you can do it, does not mean you have to."

[InfiniteCharger]

No. The problem is not ap. The problem is people chain running maw of soul until they can't take it no more and leave. Which would be grand just you know...
Don't complain afterwards.

Who made the game where it is possible to chain run Maw in the first place?

Supposedly AP is good because promotes different styles of play where players who play a little get a reward and players who play a lot get more rewards. That is the THEORY behind it. The problem is that it wreaks havoc on balance in raid encounters because of the potentially wide range of AP that players may have in raiding content. Therefore, at the top end, the game had to be tuned around the highest level of traits available in game. That is SOLELY the game designers fault. Sorry. If you have infinite Attack Power (which is all AP really is) then that means it is on you to design content around having ever increasing amounts of said power. Otherwise, WHY have it in the game if there is no need for it? That fundamental issue is purely on the game developers and nobody else. I don't see Infinite M+ raids in the game, so at some point that tuning has a limit. It can't be too low because it will make the raids too easy. But if it is too high then it is almost impossible to reach. But what defines that "happy medium"? All of that is purely on Blizzard and nobody else. This has never been a problem before. If what they want is for raiding to last longer then add some sort of M+ raiding system to go along with the infinite AP curve. Otherwise this problem will persist. It is not like players pushing the bar in the game is something new.

[Paragas]

This thread is a lot of "make the game more fun for people who do everything the game has to offer on 5+ different characters"

[Flurryfang]

That's true for a good chunk of players. The problem is that if you want to do mythic you pretty much needs 50ish traits on your raid in order to meet DPS checks. Given the difficulty gap between heroic and mythic players who want to do mythic are left with 3 options:

1. Go farm AP to get 54 traits
2. Pray to the RNG gods that in a couple of months you'll have gotten enough gear to account for the lack of traits(unlikely to happen)
3. Give up on the idea of mythic and just clear heroic in 2 hours every week and log off

With the changes in 7.2(assuming they go live in a similar way as they are on the PTR) the situation is going to improve but until then people who don't want to farm M+ are a tad fucked by the tuning, especially DPS.

If people don't kill bosses, Blizz will nerf these bosses. I have been in a situation before, where a boss just was unkillable by my guild and we took a decision together, that we would wait for a future nerf and just do fun content up till then. If you find yourself in a situation, where unhealthy gameplay is apperantly needed for you to progress, then maybe the best option is just to take a break from progression and postpone your raid schedule 1 month. Some raiders might actually enjoy it, since it gives players some free time to do what they enjoy and gear a little bit up by doing more easy and relaxing content.

[Deleted]

The way I see it Ion tries to justify a wrong game design and decision by bluntly blaming world 1 aiming guilds.
Define character progression : the way I see it my achievement calculator has a ton of staff to do , only a small portion of them require entering high end instanced content (that being pve or pvp) : from exploring, loremaster, holidays, proffessions, mounts, rep, to pet battling there is a ton of things attached to character progression.
I understand that the team wanted casuals to have access to shiny orange quality staff that previously were only accessible to high end hard working raiders but there is a difference to that and to firmly attaching everyday content and rng to character output and performance in instanced content.
I wouldn't mind if an item like "tabard of the lightbringer" was rng or required daily farm that would be accessible to everyone from casual to hardcore raider. Wouldn't mind if archi mythic mount dropped from lfr. Don't mind if I had to farm frostsaber reputation for 3 months to get the mount back when flying was not a thing getting ganked and everything and now u can do it in like one week or even less.
However attaching the content as a whole to character output that's a big deal (I will not even get started with rng), it's bad game design and although its quite late to do something about it they better recognize it and next expansion we have gets rid of this kind of thing.

[Deleted]

it's prime example how they can't implement game how they want - "it's not ment to be", why it is made then that way? nothing to do with mythic guild leader, it's same in heroic, normal. random raid pugs, 5mans and mythics+ are even more demanding - you can slack 10x more in guild, try to pug this "not ment to be content".
maybe they should hire at least 1 person who plays the game, not 8 hours a day, but even 1 hour a day is enough - they obviously don't have that person in deciding team.

[InfiniteCharger]

Ohh i don't think anybody is trying to say, that mythic raiders is ruinning the game for everybody else. What is trying to be pushed forward is that mythic raiders are ruining the game for themselfs and that they should not try to push changes, that will make other aspects of the game worse just so they can be stopped from ruining the their own experience.

I am blaming the mythic raiders, because while the games attitude towards playing have changed, the mythic players mentality about it have stayed the same. Blizzard have tried to increased the amount of content in the game and the maximum amount of content you can do everyday, but instead of setting their own cap at how much gaming is enjoyable, some mythic guilds are still trying to do as much as possible, when they really should have looked at what was good enough for themselfs.

Universal rewards have a universal effect on all the players. Just because it is only top mythic players who farm to lvl 54 in the opening weeks of NH, the AP leveling path is still something, which is gained by the average player, just over time. If you want to change the way AP works or how long it is worth getting, then you will change the experience of all players, not just the mythic players.

You might be a bit limited to who you talk to in the game, but most people in both my guilds (one normal raiding focused and one heroic/mythic focused) are very happy about AP and the artifact. It is improving the game outside of raiding and gives people a reward to go after. No longer is there a dead period 2-3 months into an expansion/patch, where there is nothing outside raiding that will increase your power in anyway. You can now be a scrub with a very slow raiding schedule and still get more powerfull over time.

Edit: It all comes down to the old saying "Just because you can do it, does not mean you have to."

I don't agree. Because if the new philosophy makes no sense then it is the game designers fault. As I said before, there is absolutely no reason that the game should not reward those who push the bar along with those who are more casual. Therefore, if that "new philosophy" breaks what has always been present in the form of hard core players then how is it the players fault? The point is the game developers define what constitutes good, better and best in the game. Only they set the bar and therefore implicitly by setting the bar they are saying that they expect the players to play a certain way to reach that bar. But to sit here and claim that there should be no bar or that the bar is simply there as a reference but never to be reached is absurd. Or better saying it is the players fault for trying to reach the bar is dishonest. That's like saying its the racers fault for driving faster. If what they want to do is make content last longer then it is on them to make the system work and nobody else. Giving AP to everybody in the same amount who plays the game is the problem. If they limited how much you get based on the kinds of content you did that would solve most of this IMO.

[Deleted]

rofl this thread

>no lifers rush the content and get burnout
>blame blizzard
>blizzard said it is their fault
>mongoloid of mmo c come here to moan

wut

[Ragedaug]

The problem is Blizzard designing a non fun mythic raid environment that values time investment above all else because they want to add an infinite grind and call it "content".

People played all day every day before and we didn't have this problem because there was some sanity still left on the Development team and they limited how far you could progress a single character (or in this case, spec) over a certain period of time.

Correct, which is why we all complained and dropped our subs during WoD. There was nothing left to do.

The design has changed, not the fundamental nature of the playerbase. The design ENCOURAGES as much grinding as possible because Blizzard somehow sees total play time as an indication of a healthy playerbase and sub retention. All they will get is a very unhealthy and quickly burnt out playerbase, however.

The design had to change to give the majority a reason to keep logging in. Mythic wasn't meant to be cleared in weeks, it was meant to last several months, and even then only to the best guilds. The problem comes back to people who either want everything now, or are so competitive, they play unhealthy amounts of time so they can beat random internet strangers at a game.

[potis]

I like how every self-proclaimed casual on mmo-champion believes what Ion said is true.

While everyone with half a brain and basic raiding experience, not even a Mythic raider knows he is full of shit trying to cover for a fail game design that is AP and AK along with Legendary RNG.

They failed, they are trying to cover it up by blaming the guilds, i dont remember them ever saying "split raiding is the mythic raid leaders fault".

AP and AK should have been treated differently, they failed to do that.

Mythic/Heroic raiding has been the same for a few years but then you go and add AP in the equation and make it character specific, and you blame the guilds for farming it

And the average MMO-Champion mongoloid that doesnt even know how AP/AK works 6 months in, sides with the developer that fucked up.

The whole" If you cant control yourself" is a pile of bullshit, you people need to understand that:

Not everyone takes 30 minutes to do their daily HC dungeon as you do.

Not everyone takes 1 hour to do a few WQs.

Not everyone finds M+5 "insanely hard".

In other words, after an average player that doesnt suck at the game completely or at least manages his time correctly, does not require 3-4 hours to do basic things, they are usually take 1 hour, they dont have anything else to do, than farm AP.

If its there, people with time will farm it, its up to Blizzard to not fuck up the numbers.

P.S Upper Mythic bosses are designed around 54 traits, no matter what you like to believe.

[cFortyfive]

for me, it's a nice way to blow off steam after working on a job all week (in the US, a base work week is 40 hours, fyi) and working on my Master's degree all week.

Sorry already done with that.

I'm sorry you don't approve of all of the time I spend outside of Nighthold. Thankfully, I don't need your approval. I do appreciate you helping me make my point though. All this massive amount of time that I and my guildies are "wasting" not raiding, and we still have quite a few people with maxed weapons, and a whole lot more at 40+ - and we don't even really try.

Yeah yeah great points you are making especially since most ap is acquired outside of raids but I guess congrats on making it with 30 hours of playtime a week that's quite an achievement.

that is AP and AK along with Legendary RNG.

Well since I have no doubts it was fiscally rather successful I don't think it's a fail at all actually just look how endless grinds keep certain people entertained. Just need to sprinkle in a couple more micro transactions at some point.

[Mormolyce]

Remember that time when playing this game at its highest level didn't require a ridiculous time commitment and come with a serious risk of burnout?

Me neither.

[Deleted]

If people don't kill bosses, Blizz will nerf these bosses. I have been in a situation before, where a boss just was unkillable by my guild and we took a decision together, that we would wait for a future nerf and just do fun content up till then. If you find yourself in a situation, where unhealthy gameplay is apperantly needed for you to progress, then maybe the best option is just to take a break from progression and postpone your raid schedule 1 month. Some raiders might actually enjoy it, since it gives players some free time to do what they enjoy and gear a little bit up by doing more easy and relaxing content.

That's assuming that blizz actually nerfs it in due time and there's other content that will keep players entertained. The problem is that when people don't enjoy M+ (or at least not the part where you grind it constantly) there's not a lot of other content left other than an alt raid you blitz through in 2-3 hours and then the weekly doing some keys.

Instead of telling players to just do easier content when the only blocker from more difficult things is a mindless M+ grind the direction they are going in currently makes more sense(less impactful "paragon" traits at a seemingly higher cost). Making the final traits so that they allow progression for players while not making it an obvious finish line you need for mythic should have been done right from the start(same for legendaries to a lesser extent).

[Ragedaug]

I like how every self-proclaimed casual on mmo-champion believes what Ion said is true.

While everyone with half a brain and basic raiding experience, not even a Mythic raider knows he is full of shit trying to cover for a fail game design that is AP and AK along with Legendary RNG.

I like how you started off your argument with, "everyone who disagrees with me has less than half a brain".

I bet that will win them to your side. The half-brains will want your approval so badly that your insults will bring them to your side. Yep, that's how it works....


I would say I have at least half a brain (I think), and I have basic raiding experience. I'm not even a Mythic raider, so I fit there too. Even then I have to say the design for legion is at least better than the last two expansions, and arguably better than Cata as well.

I saw dailies and heroic level raids cause burn out in MoP. I saw the nothing-to-do-but-garrison-dailies cause burn out in WoD. So far I haven't seen anything for the self-proclaimed casuals causing burn out in Legion.

Emissary's are pretty quick to finish, and I don't even have to log in every day to complete them. I can log in twice a week and not feel I'm falling behind. I can raid with my guild for a few hours twice a week and still feel we're making progress. As a self-proclaimed casual, I like what they've done with AP and look forward to never maxing my weapon out, but instead just watching it grow in power every now and then as I do the things in game I normally do.

[cFortyfive]

Remember that time when playing this game at its highest level didn't require a ridiculous time commitment and come with a serious risk of burnout?

Don't know about you but wod isn't that long ago.

I bet that will win them to your side.

Are you genuinely trying to get people on your side on the internet ? Jesus you are one brave soul.

[Ragedaug]

Remember that time when playing this game at its highest level didn't require a ridiculous time commitment and come with a serious risk of burnout?

Me neither.

I think this is the funniest part. Raiding at the highest level has always caused burnout.

[potis]

I like how you started off your argument with, "everyone who disagrees with me has less than half a brain".

I bet that will win them to your side. The half-brains will want your approval so badly that your insults will bring them to your side. Yep, that's how it works....


I would say I have at least half a brain (I think), and I have basic raiding experience. I'm not even a Mythic raider, so I fit there too. Even then I have to say the design for legion is at least better than the last two expansions, and arguably better than Cata as well.

I saw dailies and heroic level raids cause burn out in MoP. I saw the nothing-to-do-but-garrison-dailies cause burn out in WoD. So far I haven't seen anything for the self-proclaimed casuals causing burn out in Legion.

Emissary's are pretty quick to finish, and I don't even have to log in every day to complete them. I can log in twice a week and not feel I'm falling behind. I can raid with my guild for a few hours twice a week and still feel we're making progress. As a self-proclaimed casual, I like what they've done with AP and look forward to never maxing my weapon out, but instead just watching it grow in power every now and then as I do the things in game I normally do.

AP/AK are the same level of fail dailies was in MoP.

Garrisons is the same.

They always do 1 major fuck up every expansion that makes an "okayish" experience into something annoying.

Legion as an expansion is a good expansion, decent story, decent dungeons, raids, something to do but they went and fucked it up with AP farming.

And your last sentence tells me everything.

You choose to not see the problem as long as "progress" is made, what you fail to understand is that someone else in your group that took their time to farm their 1 spec to 54 instead of finding stupid cheap excuses, does not think that way or will think that way when you hit a roadblock.

Maybe not now that you arent having issues, but maybe when you wipe for the 20th time at a joke boss because your raid couldnt bother to log in and do 10 WQ's for 30 mins and get their weapon to 54 like that.

AP should have been account wide, or at least character wide, it should require more to farm depending, like 200% more if Account wide, or 100% more if character wide so there wouldnt be the need for pointless grind, or the need to farm the same shit 20 times on alts too.

Each expansion has its own fail mechanic running, its like they never learn.

AP was made this way to force the casuals to sub more, it was a success on that part, but also its a major fuck up at the same time.

[Mormolyce]

Don't know about you but wod isn't that long ago.

Didn't fricking Paragon quit back in WoD?