Legion is a Pointless Grind?

[Matthias]

I'm trying to come to terms with all of the whining I'm hearing about Legion. People always bring up Legendary items, which is a totally valid complaint. But when people say it's too grindy with RNG on top of RNG, I just get baffled. I mean are 70% of the MMO-Champ players Mythic Raiders? Otherwise I don't see what's there to complain about.

After I do my Heroic Raiding, I just get my 15 done for the weekly chest, after that I don't feel compelled to log in anymore at all. I have no desire to grind for 54 trait (Paragon trait is stupid imo) and I'll wait for it to come naturally. However if I would like to, I can run NH Normal, or Heroic EN, Kara, M+ etc to fish for Titanforge gear or Legendary items, all while collecting AP. But since I'm relying on RNG entirely for a minute chance at an upgrade I don't feel compelled to do it. I'll do so if I'm bored, if friends need help.

Saying it's pointless....I mean all this gear is going to be replaced the next expansion anyway right? We wanted 5 man content to be remain relevant and people here whine "Doing the same content over and over isn't fun!?" Have we been playing the same game all of these years? I can only assume that so many people must have started playing the game in Cata when LFR essentially replaced Dungeons. However in Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK you ran the same Dungeons throughout the entire expansion.

Finally people need to come to terms that you can't just "finish" a character for given tier. Your ilvl will reflect the current level of content you run however. No need to ram your head against the wall looking for "BiS". If your not raiding Mythic, I don't see where the whining comes from.

Mind you I don't think it would hurt for Blizz to just add in some gear vendors. But seeing as how they've yet to address it, the RNG system seems to be working as a retention tactic.

[Battlebeard]

I played TBC and WotLK and hated running the same dungeons over and over. These expansions are considered good but I don't like them particularly much.

I loved Cats and MoP, absolutely loved them.

For Legion, I feel like after running a raid, like NH, and getting all the gear you want, that should be it, you should be done and ready for the next difficulty or the next raid. However that is not the case.

I have run NH normal and HC and gotten my 4set, my bis trinket and some other heroic gear. Technically I should be done with HC, as my item level is above what regular HC gear are. However, due to WF/TF, I have many reasons to stay in NH. I can upgrade my 885-890 gear to over 900 if I get lucky. And I feel like I HAVE to do this in order to go for some Mythic in the future or to be ready for the next raids HC mode. Previously, having a full HC gear from a tier makes you ready to progress HC mode in the next tier, this is NOT the case now. Having a full EN hc gear was not enough to go for NH HC, you had to either farm NH normal OR be crazy lucky with WF/TF in EN hc. THAT SUCKS!

I rather do a raid and be done with it, and continue to raid cause I think its fun, instead of raiding cause I feel its mandatory to farm WF/TF gear for the next content.

And AP grind is a joke. 54 is absolutely crazy, my highest weapon is 45 and I play actively. I do EN, TOV and NH both normal and HC (not done many NH hc runs yet) on a weekly basis and that should be enough to keep track with the AP. Mythic+ was suppose to be an alternative to raiding, meaning it should also be enough to ONLY RAID to keep up. However now it feels like I must do those awful dungeons as a raider to be in pair with the rest. And that SUCKS!

[potis]

Its people that cant comprehend or cant accept how that 10% extra damage from artifact grind works.

I grinded my 54 points on my one spec by simply doing the AP world quests every day, it took me 1 hour every day for about a month combined with AK research from around 20? was it then? Around there, up to 25 AK where i think took me 3 days at 25 AK to go from 53 to 54 points.

I simply wait for my second spec by playing, and i havent "grinded" anything for about 2 months now.

Legion is a pointless grind for anyone with a functioning brain.

Grind AP for your character to be useful.

Run raids/dungeons and hope for TF proc.

Run active raid, higher m+ and hope for TF proc.

Run anything and hope for Legendary.

And a character can be finished, depending on what you consider finished.

My Fury spec has 54 points, i have 4 set (all 6 pieces) 3 are Heroic, 3 are normal and i have Drought of Souls.

I am missing 3 HC pieces and CoF to consider my Fury warrior completed till 7.2 since i do not raid Mythic.

Thats how a character is "completed".

[TheVaryag]

I'm trying to come to terms with all of the whining I'm hearing about Legion. People always bring up Legendary items, which is a totally valid complaint. But when people say it's too grindy with RNG on top of RNG, I just get baffled. I mean are 70% of the MMO-Champ players Mythic Raiders? Otherwise I don't see what's there to complain about.

After I do my Heroic Raiding, I just get my 15 done for the weekly chest, after that I don't feel compelled to log in anymore at all. I have no desire to grind for 54 trait (Paragon trait is stupid imo) and I'll wait for it to come naturally. However if I would like to, I can run NH Normal, or Heroic EN, Kara, M+ etc to fish for Titanforge gear or Legendary items, all while collecting AP. But since I'm relying on RNG entirely for a minute chance at an upgrade I don't feel compelled to do it. I'll do so if I'm bored, if friends need help.

Saying it's pointless....I mean all this gear is going to be replaced the next expansion anyway right? We wanted 5 man content to be remain relevant and people here whine "Doing the same content over and over isn't fun!?" Have we been playing the same game all of these years? I can only assume that so many people must have started playing the game in Cata when LFR essentially replaced Dungeons. However in Vanilla, TBC and WoTLK you ran the same Dungeons throughout the entire expansion.

Finally people need to come to terms that you can't just "finish" a character for given tier. Your ilvl will reflect the current level of content you run however. No need to ram your head against the wall looking for "BiS". If your not raiding Mythic, I don't see where the whining comes from.

Mind you I don't think it would hurt for Blizz to just add in some gear vendors. But seeing as how they've yet to address it, the RNG system seems to be working as a retention tactic.

Okay firstly: Gear Vendors, bad Idea quit It with the idea of "Lets just buy gear" that'd just pour the fuel for people to buy gold with tokens, then buy their way Into the toppest level of best level gear within minutes while having no shread of skill or experience with that particular class they payed to be geared over 9000 ilevel.

While the way It's been working Is fine and not broken, aka: Get leveling, get gear, do dungeons, do raiding If you like and you're top geared unless you do Mythic raiding but that's for a minority any way - still relevant though.

So to answer your question, yes Legion Is a pointless grind and I'm hella surprised you've realized only 6 months after the fact, when I saw that like 1-2 months Into Legion. At first It felt fine to get some AP eachtime you do whatever but then you get to Trait 54 and you realize there's a AP dump In the form of a 4th Golden Trait that gives you a generic 0.5 % damage upgrade.. and most of the other traits do the same thing "Generic 5 % damage upgrade to ability 1" and so on.

TBC dungeon running however you did mostly for the gear, and even then I enjoyed the dungeons a ton as they were challanging and tough to do, Wrath took It further as you also got Badges from doing dungeons which also gave you gear In return for those badges so that wasn't so bad.

TBC/Wrath were still flawed, but I feel If they just worked upon that formula of mostly TBCs mechanics, combined with some quality of life Improvements from the current retail WoW they'd have a grand expansion with less grinding and RNG. RNG Is essential almost to a game, and an MMO. You can't have one without RNG but RNG needs to be at a level that It isn't deciding you're stronger than another guy on pure chance.

Running more dungeons and raids for a MINOR chance at a Warforged 5+ ilevel upgrade Is just a stupid timesink and It's essentially gambling - they put these Into the game to make you waste more of your time on a generic little upgrade, rather then going Into a raid or a stronger tier of difficulty and get an item that has 20 more ilevel.

Legion Is a giant grind upon grind. Even the grinding has grinding and you are having your time wasted, I feel no desire to do anything on WoW other than stand around and do Table Missions maybe, and perhaps some PvP and even then PvP Is so unbalanced and the gear/strenght difference betwenn players Is so bizzare this expansion. You have no guaranteed PvP gear to make you the strongest, there's no conquest gear anymore.

And you have to grind mostly PvE content: Dungeons and World Quests just to farm Artifact Power just to remain stronger than your other PvP opponents - you're not even doing PvP most of the time and loosing In a BG gives you literally nothing. You get a box with a chance of loot you won't even use cause you found better gear from PvE content, and when you loose you get nothing. No big, no points, no honor, nothing - your time has been wasted If you loose. Before you at least got some pity honor and didn't feel like your time has been wasted. And even then winning also feels wasteful as you get no real upgrades, other than honor. But then for most PvPers It's enough to do your achivements, get your saddle, titles and so on... but what is ESSENTIAL for a hardcore Pvper Is to know you have the strongest gear possible. To enchant all your pieces, to gem It and not worry about upgrading until the next season. Now you'd be spending so much time on enchanting a full set, and before you know It you're replacing that whole set for gloves or boots that have 10 more ilevel on them because RNG.. and that will keep going and going and you'll never know which is the top ilevel of gear you can have In PvP because RNG says there's basically no limit.

[Justpassing]

Well, life is a pretty pointless grind too so :<

[Gatsbybutters]

You just said you agree with complaints, think the most prominent legion systems are stupid, and realized rng is being used to keep bad players playing... then wonder where these complaints are coming from? What is this?

[schwarzkopf]

I've been playing since Legion was released - haven't found any grind in it so far. But then again, I've only played 1000 hours since Legion launch.

Any hints as to where I should look ?

[Teri]

Mind you I don't think it would hurt for Blizz to just add in some gear vendors. But seeing as how they've yet to address it, the RNG system seems to be working as a retention tactic.

Gear vendor is coming in some way and form, Relinquished gear vendor, lets you buy tokens with nethershards to get a gear piece.

Relinquished Hood
Item Level 110
Binds when picked up
Use: Create a Broken Isles item appropriate for your loot specialization).

May contain a Legendary item.
Requires Level 110

Now, I don't know if this means a 860+ world quest "broken isles" gear piece, but that's what I assume so. New world bosses drop 890, so who knows.

[Eats Compost]

WoW isn't very good at providing milestones for its progression system. Players who aren't engaged in progression raiding don't really have any well-defined challenge to overcome with the gear they obtain, which isn't good news for the progression system itself. A drip feed of gear makes sense when you're trying to pull out enough damage to get Patchwerk down, but it makes substantially less sense when all of the content that you're willing to play (LFR, outdoor stuff, etc) is expected to be won from the get-go.

Stuff like the Brawler's Guild is notable for helping in this regard, but it's not enough. Some games define the "reason" for collecting gear very well, but WoW just doesn't do that outside of progression raiding environments. They just aren't providing a hook. If you aren't raiding, gear is more of a side effect of whatever you're doing than an explicit goal.

[Tinary]

For Legion, I feel like after running a raid, like NH, and getting all the gear you want, that should be it, you should be done and ready for the next difficulty or the next raid. However that is not the case.

And AP grind is a joke. 54 is absolutely crazy, my highest weapon is 45 and I play actively.

I hit 110 in 10th nov, I play about 5-12 hours per week, more if I get lucky and have time and my main spec wep is 54 and offspec wep is 45, what is this actively you are talking about? I didnt grind ap, I just ran my weekly dungs, progress raids (didnt have time for farm runs), did like 70% of emmisary's, prefering the AP ones over other tho so I dont really see how this AP grind is bad for a casual. TF/WF system is good since it keeps the players actively raiding instead of getting their 4set/bis gear and not giving a f about the other guild members. Mythic guild doesnt have a problem with this since they have bench people but casual guilds have.

So far, I have not felt that legion is grindfest, doing the stuff I would otherwise do anyway I am overgearing the content I do. Casual player so heroic is max raiding level I step my foot in sadly and I am atm at 904 equipped, wep being 925 and 4 leges, 910 in bags. Only problem I have with legion is that it throws too much free stuff to my face but thats just me.

[Anon56]

It's pointless because all this grind is not challenging. Except MM10+, you can do everything you listed while watching a movie on your second screen and it's boring.

I play to raid at the hardest difficulty possible even if I don't clean it, because it's challenging. If I raid 10 hours a week I don't want to have to grind 3 more hours of pointless stuff. The real issue is that in the previous expansion, you could upgrade your legendary (cape, ring, what is your arfefact now) by looting tokens in raid.

Now you have to grind some shitty WQ or run the same dungeons over and over for the whole fucking expansion. Legion was done so that casuals always have something to do in the open world while forcing Mythic raiders to also do it.

There are 3 kind of people playing this game, Mythic raiders, Open Worlder / Semi raider (nm or hc) and PVP guys. Some people do all 3, some do 2 and some do only 1. In all three categories you have people playing casual or hardcore. It's a bad design to force one category to do something they don't want to do. Because let's be realistic, if you're a casual mythic raiding guild, most of your roster NEED those 54 traits if you want the slightest chance to go past the second half of Nighthold MM.

[Hottage]

The entire video game is a pointless grind. You pay your €12,99 / $15 / x gold per month.

You then sit behind your PC for a few hours, performing tasks and completing objectives.

Finally you stop playing and afterwards you have nothing of value to show for it.

Regardless what you did in those hours, there is no meaningful benefit to your life.

Your entire WoW gaming existence is a pointless grind, no matter how long you've played.

[Heathy]

you can grind as much or as little as you want, there are definitely gear plateaus that are worth reaching, but you don't need to over farm no, you can if you want to ofc.

you just need to reach an ilvl that is 10 ilvls lower than the content you want to run next.

my guess is that ToS will drop ilvl 895 in normal 905 in heroic, and 915 in mythic. so you need most likely 880 to start normal tos, 890 to start heroic and 905-910 to jump right into mythic.

the content has followed the same pattern all the way through.

once you hit 110,

you need 810 or so to do heroics, you need 825-35 to join the raid finder.
you need 830 for normal en, you need 840 for heroic.
you need 865 for normal nighthold, you need 875 for heroic. you need 890-895 for mythic.

if we follow this trend we can safely assume ToS will require 880 for normal, 890 for heroic, and 910+ for mythic.

you don't NEED to grind more than that to make a start on that content and get upgrades from it.
I raid heroic and haven't felt like i'm lacking ap, my weapon is lvl 46 and i top meters all the time. bosses are dying, haven't felt like i've had to grind excessively.

you probably could just stop playing the game and catch up perfectly fine in 7.2, but thats not a new concept you've been able to do that since the raid finder was a thing. the raid finder has always been a quick way of getting gear to start on normal, combined with dungeon drops ofc.

in the end its up to you how much effort you put into your weapon and your ilvl, there is a requirement to progress, and you can either meet that requirement or go over it, it doesn't really matter.

once you bring apathy into a game, it stops being fun. 'pointless' in a video game? can anything get any more pointless? its meant to be fun, improving your character and over coming challenges. if you find that pointless this is either not the game for you or you've burnt out.

[Nethlord]

/snip

I left around October after hitting a gear threshold that trivialized the content I would normally do (Heroic raiding). Now I know someone is going to say "Hey, you could have done Mythic! There was still more to do!" And that might be true for you, but the time commitment, the physical commitment, the amount of labor going into not only doing the content, but to proverbially "Hang" with others was never something I NEVER wanted to be a part of. To me, this felt more like a JOB, and less about a GAME. Again, my personal take here.

When faced with this, all there was left then was a daily boring grind to strengthen my artifact weapon, do world quests for borked RNG gear that could outstrip ilvl of some heroics (and mythic + dungeons), hope for a legendary (I had two, one for a emissary chest, the other from a world boss), endlessly grind Dungeons (mythic +, which let's be honest are the same dungeons over and over and over and over...just with the dial turned up each time) Clear the raid(s) and then wait for the next thing. That's the approx of the game as I had come to view it. For me it came down to.."what's the point?" The next patch is going to be the same thing in essence, why do it again and again? For me, I didn't see a reason to keep doing the same thing anymore, so I left.

I just asked if it was worth coming back in a different post. The responses I got pretty much were in line with what I thought--it's the same thing, but with a different package.

Sure, I could go and start a new toon, or play a different way, or even start on the other faction (i've nearly always been alliance). But for me, it'll end the same way. I've been with WoW for ages, I think I just came to my threshold. The game stopped offering me a reason to keep going.

[IceMan1763]

Yes /3 chars

[Deleted]

Well the feeling when you completed your pvp set and finally started to wrack whenever you joined a bg is lost. The feeling when you got your dungeon bis gear and felt completely ready for raiding. When you had your bis gear from current raid and started to aim for rankings. The end of the tunnel is black in Legion and whenever you log to another alt it feels bad... Dunno I think they kinda took "no content" wrong and just made content endlessly repeatable with ever rarer chance to get something out of it.

[Gimlix]

Well the feeling when you completed your pvp set and finally started to wrack whenever you joined a bg is lost. The feeling when you got your dungeon bis gear and felt completely ready for raiding. When you had your bis gear from current raid and started to aim for rankings. The end of the tunnel is black in Legion and whenever you log to another alt it feels bad... Dunno I think they kinda took "no content" wrong and just made content endlessly repeatable with ever rarer chance to get something out of it.

Problem is, they want people to be as equal. Instead of having the ability to show off with your high gear.
Go in a BG with high end gear and you fight a guy vs low gear, it doesn't matter. It's all scaled.

everything nowadays is mostly scaled or/and phased. So the real feeling is gone.

[Deleted]

Wow has been an endless grind since launch, only in vanilla less then 1% of player base knew this. In tbc wow has been an endless grind but the only thing that has changed is that 5% knew about it. In Wotlk wow has been an endless grind, 15% of player base knew this. Now so many years later wow is still and endless grind, only difference is that 75% of the players know about this and a lot start complaining about this fact that has been known since wow launched.

[IceMan1763]

Wow has been an endless grind since launch, only in vanilla less then 1% of player base knew this. In tbc wow has been an endless grind but the only thing that has changed is that 5% knew about it. In Wotlk wow has been an endless grind, 15% of player base knew this. Now so many years later wow is still and endless grind, only difference is that 75% of the players know about this and a lot start complaining about this fact that has been known since wow launched.

Comparing Legion to Wrath as far as how much you need to grind is pretty hilarious. Good try though.

[ItachiZaku]

It's not that grindy - not compared to other expansions. There are always reps, dailies, some resource to grind. Always. No big deal.