Is Nighthold too easy on melee dps?

[Deleted]

Well, its his math blabbing about boohoohoo whole 100 yards. While the reality looks like this:

melee (example: war) uses heroic jump and in a couple of seconds he is standing at the soak target. he soaks mechanics, use charge and in a second he is beating the boss.

while

ranged has to move to the target on their own, soak mechanics and then move back on their own again.

It is a serious question, who actually loses more damage in such scenarios. Considering most ranged can do jack's shit on the move.

Most range class actually do have some sort of gap closing ability.

I don't know how good shadow priests are at covering distance, but they could definitively do something about warlock. While it does represent class fantasy to some degree, both the Portal and the Circle are pretty bad as a gap closer and absolutely fail in the area of adaptive play, because they are stationary and in many cases actually quite useless.

But some melee classes do have difficulties aswell, For example Death Knights aren't as mobile as warrior, rogues or the supreme Demon Hunter overlords ^^

[qw4]

Try feral.

Oh, and try interrupt rotations.

[Rheckameohs]

Nobody's asking a melee to go 100 yards.

Yeah, I reread his post. I actually thought he was saying that melee could move 100 yards out without losing as much damage as a ranged.

Which, you know, is patently false.

While it does represent class fantasy to some degree, both the Portal and the Circle are pretty bad as a gap closer and absolutely fail in the area of adaptive play, because they are stationary and in many cases actually quite useless.

But some melee classes do have difficulties aswell, For example Death Knights aren't as mobile as warrior, rogues or the supreme Demon Hunter overlords ^^

They're not meant to be adaptive. A good warlock will set his portals and circles before the pull in strategic locations.

And death knights are actually turtles. I feel bad for them.

[Deleted]

Try feral.

Oh, and try interrupt rotations.

Well we tried that on multiple fights like Gul'Dan (the p2 add) and mythic Krosus etc.
After our melees failed miserably we decided it was best to let ranges do that aswell even if it means interrupting casts and losing dps, but you can only take so much failure from melees.

Don't know about feral mobility though, but I am sure they have some sort of dash and blink if I remember correctly?

[melodramocracy]

Yeah, I reread his post. I actually thought he was saying that melee could move 100 yards out without losing as much damage as a ranged.

Which, you know, is patently false.

Movement in this game, as far as what's normally expected of players, is far less taxing on melee primarily because they don't have to deal with cast times. Shorter mandatory moves are of zero consequence to melee, whereas they completely hamper ranged (volcanic affix is actually a perfect example of this).

[Sithalos]

Yes, very much so.

[Deleted]

Assuming a warrior is being played? Heroic Leap has a range of 45 yards; Charge, 25 yards. If the soak point is 100 yards away, the warrior has to run 55 yards before the soak point is within range of Heroic Leap. Once he soaks the mechanic, he has to move 75 yards before he can Charge the boss. Total movement is 130 yards. And remember, warriors are one of the more mobile melee classes.

A hunter (I'm using hunter as an example because they deal with mechanics 99% of the time) has an attack range of 40 yards. In order to get to the soak point 100 yards away, he has to move 60 yards there and back for a total of 120 yards. Already, the warrior has to move 10 more yards than the hunter. Hunters also have abilities like Disengage, which can be used for the exact opposite of its intended purpose.

In summary, accounting for total movement time, the melee loses out on more damage.

Very extreme examples you brought there, 100 yards n stuff.

The reality is melee specs can cover large distances rather quickly nowadays and they should not keep spreading that misconception that you need 100% boss uptime. Because guess what:

1) most ranged do abysmal DPS while moving;
2) your average DPS is higher than that of ranged precisely to make you more likely to do actual boss mechanics, not just tunnel and say you need 100% boss uptime.

Do mechanics and spread the burden.

[Deleted]

They're not meant to be adaptive. A good warlock will set his portals and circles before the pull in strategic locations.

And death knights are actually turtles. I feel bad for them.

Exactly. And this is where we are all coming back to the initial statements at hand.
Warlocks, a range class through and through, have to strategize before every fight. Knowing every detail about the fight and planning ahead a thousand of iterations and different outcomes to chose the most optimal spot to place the circle and portal to make the most use of it.
More often than now the Portals are actual meant for the raid so they have to get in the minds of other players to think for them aswell.

For example my guild places Portals in a way that melee players have it easier. E.g. Chronomatic Anomaly so that melee players can stay longer on the boss and then jump through the adds. The warlocks even adapt and put new portal the further the fight progress.

I don't know of any melee class that has to go through such lengths before a fight. They just use their gap closer cooldowns whenenver they need them whereever they need them because they are easy to use and bring you where you want to. No planning needed.

And thank you for bringing that up. It was a perfect example of why range players are, in fact, the better players (on average).

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Melee friendly means the ranged do mechanics.
Without ranged there is noone to do mechanics.
Still beyond you?

Not prioritizing ranged > melee doesn't mean all melee and no ranged. No need to be a smart ass, just don't be an idiot and use your brain a bit.

[Sanat]

There is alot more to being melee then mongoloid face smashing a boss. Admittedly this raid tier seems to lean more on ranged for target specific mechanics, but at every level of play there are good and bad players in every camp. Maximizing your role makes you a good raider, being a good raider is better then being any specific class,role, or archetype.

If your melee are bitching about doing anything then dpsing the boss, then they aren't being productive parts of your team. Any Raidleader worth his salt will make melee do the same jobs as ranged assuming equal opportunity cost for both roles. In fact I make our melee share the load as often as possible to ensure that sentiment of "ranged only" doing mechanics doesn't get settled into my team.

Lastly, any boss fight that allows a role to tunnel, typically means that role is also heavily scrutinized for any missteps in play. If your melee dps is slacking with a sloppy rotation on a boss where he does nothing training dummy dps, then he is more likely to get bitched out in log analysis then the ranged player who has easier excuses to cover his shittier play.

I try to never compare my melee to my ranged. You are compared within your role, dps, dmg taken, soaks, unique things you bring to your raid team. Complaining that you have something to do other then turret dps is pretty stupid.

I was discussing this with some of my raiders and I feel like I don't see it in the same light since I'm a melee dps and the Raid leader. I don't make excuses, I do any job that is worth allowing a melee to do and I'm hyper critical of my melee to not act like the picture painted in this forum.

[Deleted]

There is alot more to being melee then mongoloid face smashing a boss. Admittedly this raid tier seems to lean more on ranged for target specific mechanics, but at every level of play there are good and bad players in every camp. Maximizing your role makes you a good raider, being a good raider is better then being any specific class,role, or archetype.

If your melee are bitching about doing anything then dpsing the boss, then they aren't being productive parts of your team. Any Raidleader worth his salt will make melee do the same jobs as ranged assuming equal opportunity cost for both roles. In fact I make our melee share the load as often as possible to ensure that sentiment of "ranged only" doing mechanics doesn't get settled into my team.

Lastly, any boss fight that allows a role to tunnel, typically means that role is also heavily scrutinized for any missteps in play. If your melee dps is slacking with a sloppy rotation on a boss where he does nothing training dummy dps, then he is more likely to get bitched out in log analysis then the ranged player who has easier excuses to cover his shittier play.

I try to never compare my melee to my ranged. You are compared within your role, dps, dmg taken, soaks, unique things you bring to your raid team. Complaining that you have something to do other then turret dps is pretty stupid.

I was discussing this with some of my raiders and I feel like I don't see it in the same light since I'm a melee dps and the Raid leader. I don't make excuses, I do any job that is worth allowing a melee to do and I'm hyper critical of my melee to not act like the picture painted in this forum.

That is a true post and differentiating is pretty good.
There are hardships if you are a melee and especially in earlier expansions there were many raids where it was tough to be a melee.

We are all glad it has become way easier for melees with LEGION.

[drbatman]

The first raid since I can remember that the idea has even been tossed around that a raid is 'melee friendly' , a welcome change.

Sounds like a lot of ranged crying because they actually have to do things now (like move)

[Xanthan]

A lot of people are confused about what melee friendly/ranged friendly really means.

A mechanic that scales with the number of ranged players you have and hurts their damage while not hurting melee is melee-friendly. Generally any mechanic that requires random or mass movement that doesn't require moving out of range of the boss is a good example. The rotating beam on Trilliax and the fel beams on Krosus are perfect examples. Melee don't lose DPS uptime avoiding these, while ranged do. Krosus's bridge smash on the other hand is ranged-friendly, since melee completely loses access to the boss for the duration, while ranged can DPS through it.

A mechanic that has a fixed number of impacted ranged players is neutral (or ranged-friendly if anything). If you bring fewer than the minimum required ranged DPS, you can't do the fight in reasonable manner. Frost orbs on Spellblade are an example of this, as is the giant orb on Krosus. Handling them is a requirement to do the fight, but a fixed number of ranged are always impacted by it, so it doesn't hurt you to bring more ranged to the fight. Each extra ranged you bring reduces the amount of time any one ranged is dealing with the mechanic, so it doesn't matter if you bring more ranged or more melee.

A mechanic that ranged or melee can deal with, but it's easier for ranged to handle, or a mechanic that only ranged can handle is ranged-friendly. The more ranged you have, the easier it is to handle the mechanic, which makes it easier to complete the fight. This is by far the the most common sort of boss mechanic and the reason it's sometimes called the World of Rangecraft. Just about any mechanic that requires movement to a specific location, or quickly targeting an add that spawns a distance from a boss qualifies. Melee not being able to handle these mechanics and having no recourse but to tunnel the boss makes it disadvantageous to bring them, not beneficial. See: eating feasts/cakes on Trilliax, soaking pools/killing distant adds on Krosus, killing lashers on Botanist, etc.

No one wipes to mechanics that ranged have to handle and wishes they had brought more melee to tunnel these "melee-friendly" bosses. It's a snowy day in hell when anyone looks at their raid group and wishes they had more melee to bring.

[Deleted]

The first raid since I can remember that the idea has even been tossed around that a raid is 'melee friendly' , a welcome change.

Sounds like a lot of ranged crying because they actually have to do things now (like move)

don't know what you are reading, but all range players are happy about it, because they know it means less wiping if there is less responsibility on melee players

[Deleted]

The first raid since I can remember that the idea has even been tossed around that a raid is 'melee friendly' , a welcome change.

Sounds like a lot of ranged crying because they actually have to do things now (like move)

ranged is used to it, trust me.

The issue is that ranged continues to deal with mechanics, whereas melee doesnt have to anymore. There was never such a point in the history of WoW that ranged didnt have to deal with mechanics.

So one could really say this raid is ranged-unfriendly. But as Conflux says, we are happy about it. God forbid I were to place more responsibiltiy on our melee players...

[Sanitee]

I'm sure many melee "fondly" remember raids such as those from Cataclysm where top progression teams literally would cut all melee from the groups due to mechanics. Acting like the world is ending because a couple of raids are out that are easier on melee than ranged is whining.

[Deleted]

I'm sure many melee "fondly" remember raids such as those from Cataclysm where top progression teams literally would cut all melee from the groups due to mechanics. Acting like the world is ending because a couple of raids are out that are easier on melee than ranged is whining.

Problem back then was that their potential DPS was not balanced around doing those mechanics. Now it is! Yet melee still demand 100% boss uptime and want ranged to do all the hard work.

[Killface1]

Well, without all the barbs and "omg my gameplay is harder than yours" (because lets be real, world of warcraft play of ANY class or spec in the 90% is pretty damn easy if you take the time to gear appropriately and spend 20 minutes learning the class), here's a different question: how would you design a raid if you were going to try to provide incentive for both ranged and melee to be a part of the raid?

Because anybody who says "melee mechanics are easy, ranged can do them" is definitely not wrong. Which is why in the past, you have world first kills with 2 tanks, 3 melee, 4 healers, and 11 ranged. Or even more ranged. There's no point to bringing melee when ranged can do their job for them, as well as doing ranged mechanics, as well as doing similar levels of dps. What kind of melee mechanics would you introduce? Pretty much every ranged mechanic is "go soak this thing" or "go dps this thing which is far away" which is pretty ridiculously easy if you decide to be honest. How would you incentivize groups to bring a relatively even split?

[Deleted]

Yeah it needs to change, melee literally have 0 things to do besides dps the boss and dodge the occasional mechanic on the very rare bosses where it's required. Ranged on the other hand, deal with that, deal with this, move and do nothing on the run, melee just dance around the boss and do a full rotation.

It needs to be equally split, if 6 people get a mechanic, 3 need to be ranged and 3 need to be melee.

[Xenyatta]

yeah and that is a good thing. Atleast for progress and peace of mind.

In general melee players are, in terms of maturity, patience and skill, inferior to their range counterparts.

It is a bit on the extreme side in LEGION and especially Nighthold that ranges have to do all the work while melees are tunneling the boss, but that is only logical considering how easy it is to perform well as a melee, to churn out good dps compared to range players.

Some bosses are a bit too much like Gul'Dan, mythic trilliax and a few others where it basically comes down to : "melee players you can hurr durr the boss while the range players master all the mechanics and make sure we don't wipe on the boss".
Sadly on some bosses like Botanist it happens too often that melee players are getting hit by the lashers while they are drooling on their keyboard, but thankfully Blizzard realized that with LEGION and the introduction of a new melee class, the Demon Hunter, that a very big majority of the "noobs" are ultimately drawn to that new shiny immature "I am so cool I am illidan" class that they made sure the biggest parts of the difficulties that raiding holds are best left for the range players.

Overall I think Blizzard did a good job. Sure it is annoying as a range player to carry those guys, but I would rather have it the way it currently is compared to a world where we need to rely on melees playing properly.
I for one am happy that Blizzard, and also raidleaders, are letting the melees do what they do best. Tunneling the boss and delight themselves over the damage meters where they always take the top spots for reasons beyond their comprehensive abilities.

I've done the ranged bs and I hate every single moment of it. I like fast paced fun; it's more relaxing to me. I hate having to stand there and cast. That to me just isn't fun so even when melee got shit on because they were "inferior" to ranged, I still chose what I enjoy playing. It's got nothing to do with maturity. I'm a 36 year old mother of 2 in a guild that has more (grown) women in it than I have ever been part of in the past and yes there are some that are the stereotypical healers but most of them are melee or tanks. I firmly believe people need to play what they feel comfortable with not what's FOTM or playing something they hate just to avoid labeling commentaries like the above mentioned. And no I don't hurr durr on bosses. As a WW monk I am flying all over the room to get cake and jumping in to scrubbers to save the team. I'm jumping out to help those in chains on Gul'dan and chasing after eyes. Regardless of your role, everyone SHOULD be doing things like that to help out the team as a whole not just there to stroke their epeens on warcraft logs.