MU/AU Bridge

[TickTickTick]

You might be right, and you might be wrong. The whispers of alternative timelines or events was there since Caverns of Time with things like the infinite dragonflight meddling with time to spawn a new timeline rather then the true intended one we are walking that spawned Lich King, Garrosh being a orc purist and so on.

Caverns of Time/Infinite Dragonflight stopped making sense the moment they crafted the idea that Azeroth has a titan soul. I wouldnt take anything pre WoD/Chronicles related to time traveling/AUs seriously. Even WotA seems a bit weird after their new idea with AUs. Honestly, with that the opened a can of worms. We can discuss, quote and argue, but neither side will make more sense than the other, cause pre-WoD and after-WoD lore do not connect.

[Aquamonkey]

We can discuss, quote and argue, but neither side will make more sense than the other, cause pre-WoD and after-WoD lore do not connect

Your argument isn't even consistent with the WoD stuff.

[Evangeliste]

Caverns of Time/Infinite Dragonflight stopped making sense the moment they crafted the idea that Azeroth has a titan soul. I wouldnt take anything pre WoD/Chronicles related to time traveling/AUs seriously. Even WotA seems a bit weird after their new idea with AUs. Honestly, with that the opened a can of worms. We can discuss, quote and argue, but neither side will make more sense than the other, cause pre-WoD and after-WoD lore do not connect.

How comes? The dragonflight were made by the titans. They charged the dragons to look after Azeorth so I'm not sure where it doesn't make sense when the titans came to the aid of another titan and made titan creations to help another titan to not befouled. Algalon in WotLK comments on "Analysis complete. There is partial corruption in the planet's life-support systems as well as complete corruption in most of the planet's defense mechanisms." suggesting to a world soul. Algalon himself was looking to cleanse the planet as it was corrupted with the same theme it's just we were totally ignorant to that fact.

This is in Karazhan, the original Karazhan raid that suggests the titans and actually Algalon: http://www.wowhead.com/item=37148/loose-singed-page - that explains whats is in it. Meanwhile: http://wow.gamepedia.com/Loose_Singed_Page shows when it was added. Notice the patch times these people post and the fact this item was later changed to the new one for Return of Karazhan in 7.x. Also you use to get procs from these different books that were Aman'thul, Eonar and so forth in the original raid.


The bottom line is, the fabric and essence of timeline change, the titans and stuff has been there all along. People didn't even know the correlation till now. It's makes majority of sense now because for once now we actually know the bigger picture because before it was 'Wh- the fuck is Azeroth so damn special?'.
Before it was tidbits that you couldn't really line up... Originally the idea of Bronze dragonflight made no real sense unlike say Neltharion or Alexstraza who had a point to make life and sustain the planet. Nozdormu was like I know I'll keep a couple of timers and show a few things to these mortals here and there, make sure those naughty infinite dragonflight don't meddle with shit but the reality it wasn't that. Who [being the Infinite dragonflight] could quite easily corrupt our planet and changing it's history - to the point Sargeras could claim the world soul. You know the demons and stuff that constantly over the years came to Azeroth.
He was guarding time and fair to say it has been taken for granted at the scale of his task because it wasn't exposed till now. It was like before altering our timeline was the focus but it was still present that other timelines can occur because infinite dragonflight wouldn't exist then.
Despite some retcons or perhaps not full explanations (we really don't know the full extent to what is and isn't a retcon because a retcon is to the lore we know and been released), now it makes more sense that the Titans made the bronze dragonflight because titans can't go through multiple timelines but the demons can, who are under the tyranny of... the dark titan. See where it's going and has always been there?

Wod is just an extension and now better explains things and the actual scale of Bronze dragonflight's charge. Other timelines on other planets do run by ours, may not converge to interact with us on Azeroth but Bronze are charged with Azeroth's and since it's being protected that's all that matters unless they come to us like orcs coming into Azeroth was the basis to the game. Timelines are everywehere.

Nozmordu is a prime example of this, he escaped timelines in the original carnate of WotA. They retconned it but it shows once again the idea of timelines differing prior to WOD and WOD is an extension of that ideal. There isn't really that much difference between the two just where he is placed. Original one just doesn't define where he escaped but there has to be two, one to escape from and then our MU. Whilst the later version states there are two. The new WotA is that he is trapped between timelines showing that multiple timelines exist like AU and MU. In the same token Murozond has always been whispered and finally added into the game just again shows the point that timelines can totally be changed or stay the same if we get involved I suppose. Murozond is in himself a revelation that time change or alternative versions exist. Even before WoD.

The deal with time has been in the game nonstop with titan relations. It's almost like you just point blank not acknowledging it simply because you dislike it.

[Aquamonkey]

Oh please. I understand I'm in no place to say what is true and what is not in what they say, but the answers like the one you quoted are bullshit. 'Yes!' - so what? Where is it? We didnt see it. They can make up stuff like that if they want to, cause in their thinking it makes their story more cohesive, more logical and sensible, but for me answers like that are bullshit. Same with the 'multiple pantheons in multiple universes' - makes too little sense for me to believe it even if Alex says its like that.

Are we going to see it?
I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.

I'm kind of wondering what that place looks like. I imagine it's really interesting.
Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right, I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway. (Source)

[Evangeliste]

And there's the consolidated bit to my big post explaining it's after effects in game XD.

[Destinas]

Oh please. I understand I'm in no place to say what is true and what is not in what they say, but the answers like the one you quoted are bullshit. 'Yes!' - so what? Where is it? We didnt see it. They can make up stuff like that if they want to, cause in their thinking it makes their story more cohesive, more logical and sensible, but for me answers like that are bullshit. Same with the 'multiple pantheons in multiple universes' - makes too little sense for me to believe it even if Alex says its like that.

If you mean that we never saw any other part of the AU Draenor's universe, then we actually did. Xandros is a world that we visit through a demonic portal in Talador, where we chase Gul'dan and Teron'gor. We never see Xandros in our reality - though it may exist, we've only seen it through AU Draenor's universe. However, as far as alternate Azeroth, it could easily exist, but we had no reason to go there last expansion. The devs confirming it is nice and all, but it's not news. There have been other alternate Azeroths in lore previously.

AU Velen (from AU Argus) died to purify the Naaru K'ara - both beings come from different places in their universe, while our universe's version have had completely different outcomes. K'ure is also present as two separate entities in Outland and AU Draenor, with two different fates within the Genedar.

While there are definite problems with the way they presented their multiverse, it also does fit in with the rules already set in place. Alternate universes have been present since Cataclysm in Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects, as well as the end dungeons of Cata (End Time and Well of Eternity were different timelines where we defeated an alternate Nozdormu and took an alternate Demon Soul). There were also a ton of people (Jaina, Anduin, Thrall, etc) from several alternate realities that crashed Garrosh's trial in the book War Crimes. WoD was a mess for many reasons, but not for the presence of a multiverse.

[TickTickTick]

Your argument isn't even consistent with the WoD stuff.

And how is it not? Explain.

snip

You completely missed my point. But I'll bite what you said.

Nozdormu - the moment they made up stuff about AUs his storyline kind of stopped making sense. The fact that there are multiple Pantheons doesnt help either, cause it also means there are multiple Nozdormus. How he, a master over time itself, hasnt encountered his Alternate self (well, besides Murozond).
CoT/Infinite Dragonflight was always advertised as a threat to our timeline - but it appears it was not a threat at all! Why? Based on new AUs lore, the moment Infinites succeed, it would spawn a NEW Azeroth in an alternate universe. It wouldnt have changed anything to our world.

The deal with time has been in the game nonstop with titan relations. It's almost like you just point blank not acknowledging it simply because you dislike it.

Ofc I dislike it, cause the whole thing makes little sense. You either make B and say A isnt cannon anymore, or just dont make B at all. You cant just make B and say A=B. The moment they made the AU storyline they opened the can of worms, cause it will NEVER make sense for us not to look for more AUs and even AU Pantheon. Never. But we won't do that cause it would make the can of worms even bigger. So it's a neverending bad story.

Are we going to see it?
I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.

I'm kind of wondering what that place looks like. I imagine it's really interesting.
Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right, I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway. (Source)

Never have I seen more useless, clueless and dodgy response from a blue. If you post more of Alex's responses, I might actually start to think he works for a PR department. As I said, explaining new lore with a simple 'Yes!' or a tweet-quality post filled mostly with 'right' or some mumbling doesnt convince me, even if it comes from a blue. But I guess most people swallow that bullshit with ease, thats why the lore is the way it is now.

If you mean that we never saw any other part of the AU Draenor's universe, then we actually did. Xandros is a world that we visit through a demonic portal in Talador, where we chase Gul'dan and Teron'gor. We never see Xandros in our reality - though it may exist, we've only seen it through AU Draenor's universe.

We have no idea if it's AU or MU Xandros. As much as it being in AU would make more sense, we simply dont know.

However, as far as alternate Azeroth, it could easily exist, but we had no reason to go there last expansion. The devs confirming it is nice and all, but it's not news. There have been other alternate Azeroths in lore previously.

They should have anwered it with 'we dont know' cause talking about how Multiverse is awesome and there is definitely AU Azeroth and its great then telling us we have no reason to come here is counter-intuitive. Dont make up staff you will never use, or you just overload your already volatile lore.

AU Velen (from AU Argus) died to purify the Naaru K'ara - both beings come from different places in their universe, while our universe's version have had completely different outcomes. K'ure is also present as two separate entities in Outland and AU Draenor, with two different fates within the Genedar.

The thing with Naaru made it even worse. Apparently the legion (prob void lords too, but we dont know it yet) is the only thing that transcendets time and realities, with their equivalents on the light's side being stranded by it. Multiple Naarus, multiple Pantheons... wouldnt surprise me if there were multiple Elunes, lol. But we dont need more, dudes!

While there are definite problems with the way they presented their multiverse, it also does fit in with the rules already set in place. Alternate universes have been present since Cataclysm in Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects, as well as the end dungeons of Cata (End Time and Well of Eternity were different timelines where we defeated an alternate Nozdormu and took an alternate Demon Soul). There were also a ton of people (Jaina, Anduin, Thrall, etc) from several alternate realities that crashed Garrosh's trial in the book War Crimes. WoD was a mess for many reasons, but not for the presence of a multiverse.

Oh, but it was. It completely nullified the point of CoT/Infinites. As I said earlier, back then Infinite Dragonflight was a threat to our world, wanting to change the course of history. And now we now they werent that big of a threat after all. If they succeeded, they would do so in an AU, not ours. All CoT dungeons take place in AUs, not MU. And its kind of silly, cause the AUs one(s) do not contain the titan soul.

[Pandragon]

is Hellfire Archimonde from the AU or MU?
that's not how demons work. (Alex_Afrasiabi)
right but we're asking if Archimonde this patch is from the AU or the one we killed at Hyjal.
Archimonde is a demon whose demon soul is anchored to the Nether. The Nether transcends all realities. That is all. (Alex_Afrasiabi)

That actually doesn't say the demons are in all realities, just the nether is, and the demons are anchored to it. What if a demon can only exist in 1 reality at a time. Upon dying in the MU the demon then reforms in an AU until he is killed there, so on and so forth. Maybe thats a way to bypass the time limit on reforming in the same universe. So when Archimonde was killed at hyjal, he needed to wait until another Archimonde in another reality was corrupted, then seize control of that body, or have their powers combined together. It did seem like Archimonde was much stronger this time around than he was at Hyjal.

I mean, look at it, all the demons we knew that showed up in WoD, were demons that we have already killed in the MU. Also, when Mannoroth died on Draenor, he was resurrected by Gul'dan, a demon reforms itself. Why bring him back to life that way? Because it would have taken a long time to reform in that reality by dying in it. Or he would have been forced to reformed in another reality, so Gul'dan brought him back. Which can explain the phases of the Mannoroth fight. It takes a lot of power to reform a demon in the reality it died in. When Mannoroth comes back he says "Wha- What is this? Gul'dan what have you done? I am... So weak...". It took Gul'dan time to build up the power to fully bring Mannoroth back.

[Qualia]

CoT/Infinite Dragonflight was always advertised as a threat to our timeline - but it appears it was not a threat at all! Why? Based on new AUs lore, the moment Infinites succeed, it would spawn a NEW Azeroth in an alternate universe. It wouldnt have changed anything to our world.
<...>
Oh, but it was. It completely nullified the point of CoT/Infinites. As I said earlier, back then Infinite Dragonflight was a threat to our world, wanting to change the course of history. And now we now they werent that big of a threat after all. If they succeeded, they would do so in an AU, not ours. All CoT dungeons take place in AUs, not MU. And its kind of silly, cause the AUs one(s) do not contain the titan soul.

How did you come to this conclusion? The CoT / Infinite's case and Kairoz's case are two different things. The Infinite attempted to change timeways of our own universe's timeline. If they suceeded, our present would have been changed - that was stated as early as CoT introduction chain (i.e: "If Thrall never escapes, this world – as you know it – will cease to exist"). On the other hand, Kairoz brought Garrosh to an alternate universe with its own timeline and its timeways. Whatever were done over there wouldn't have any direct effect whatsoever on our timeline. How did that turn into "Based on new AUs lore, the moment Infinites succeed, it would spawn a NEW Azeroth in an alternate universe"? Would you mind enlightening me what AU lore are you talking about? Not to mention that, as stated, AU in WoD has always been existing, it wasn't spawned just before WoD - The shard of the Vision of Time only helped to facilitate travelling between ours and the AU.

Never have I seen more useless, clueless and dodgy response from a blue. If you post more of Alex's responses, I might actually start to think he works for a PR department. As I said, explaining new lore with a simple 'Yes!' or a tweet-quality post filled mostly with 'right' or some mumbling doesnt convince me, even if it comes from a blue. But I guess most people swallow that bullshit with ease, thats why the lore is the way it is now.

Whether you like it or not doesn't matter, though, it's canon. Otherwise, how'd we even discuss things if people just go "that doesn't convince me, that sounds like BS to me, I'm not listening to that" against canon lore whenever it doesn't suit their argument(s)?

Edit: since I forgot to put it in just now, Nozdormu DID encounter his alternate selves other than Murozond at least once. It was stated in WoTA triology:

Past his gaze soared countless scenes, countless objects. An endless, wild panorama of time assailed his senses. There were landscapes, battles, and creatures even he could not name. He heard the voices of every being who had, did, and would exist. Every noise ever caused thundered in his ears. Colors unbelievable blinded his eyes.

And most unsettling, throughout it all, he saw himself, himself in each moment of existence, stretching forth from almost the birth of time to beyond its death. He might have taken heart from that save that every aspect of him was posed in the same contorted manner as he was. Every existence of him struggled to keep not just his world—but all reality—from collapsing into chaos.

Yet, now Nozdormu barely held disaster in check, even though he had the aid of himself countless times over.

[Evangeliste]

And I love you.
I wish they'd hurry up with more of those Chronicles to help with these discussions.

- - - Updated - - -

And how is it not? Explain.



You completely missed my point. But I'll bite what you said.

Nozdormu - the moment they made up stuff about AUs his storyline kind of stopped making sense. The fact that there are multiple Pantheons doesnt help either, cause it also means there are multiple Nozdormus. How he, a master over time itself, hasnt encountered his Alternate self (well, besides Murozond).
CoT/Infinite Dragonflight was always advertised as a threat to our timeline - but it appears it was not a threat at all! Why? Based on new AUs lore, the moment Infinites succeed, it would spawn a NEW Azeroth in an alternate universe. It wouldnt have changed anything to our world.



Ofc I dislike it, cause the whole thing makes little sense. You either make B and say A isnt cannon anymore, or just dont make B at all. You cant just make B and say A=B. The moment they made the AU storyline they opened the can of worms, cause it will NEVER make sense for us not to look for more AUs and even AU Pantheon. Never. But we won't do that cause it would make the can of worms even bigger. So it's a neverending bad story.

He has encountered himself, which is why he knows of his own existence of being Murozond. You have even acknowledged of one known instance before WoD that it happens. So I'm not sure as to why you believe AU is rubbish when you know Murozond is an alternative version of Nozdormu. Quite literally.

Also, the Infinite Dragonflight invading our timeline as a threat, and succeeded it spawns a new timeline away from ours? I don't get where that comes from. If it spawn an entire new AU (away from the MU) then why even give two shits about them changing our history as we know it?
Ah fuck it, it doesn't change our timeline just a new one away from us, fuck them! Nevermind WOD has shown us that a new AU could mean big shit for us too when AU Gul'dan came to MU. But it's nothing to worry about.
Sorry that doesn't make sense if being a threat to timeline with whatever the consequences happens spawns an AU somewhere. We wouldn't be dragged into it would we? No, so why even bother going back to these past events then?
Why have Caverns of Time in the first place. The answer is, it doesn't spawn an AU when Infinite come into play away from MU, it directly affects MU like any other time-travelling laws that other franchises, material, media, so on obey which is why the Caverns of Time, the events we as mortals see and try to keep are there. Otherwise, the Bronze wouldn't care because then it wouldn't interfere with Azeroth. Also, I didn't see much of Infinite being pesky in the AU really, surely they could spawn nth amount of crap in that one an make new AU that doesn't affect them! So they can make sure they never ever manage to converge onto one universe! I give Blizzard credit for their effort but even we can agree, they're not going to make that much work.

It wouldnt have changed anything to our world.

No, I'm not sure how you could conclude that with the existence of Caverns of Time and when the AU Gul'dan managed to cross over into MU. A more solidified reason as to why they were charged for, by the Titans and on top of that they wouldn't have invited mortals back into time to make sure things don't change inside Caverns of Time.
Would be a pointless exercise and just an annoyance to the Bronze who are too busy checking hourglasses and being useless and whimsical as you feel they are.

All CoT dungeons take place in AUs, not MU. And its kind of silly, cause the AUs one(s) do not contain the titan soul.

Certainly none of the original dungeons in the Caverns of Time are in AU, the latter being End Time and so on are AU perhaps as much as Murozond is a concept that stems from AU ideal. Which again just really suggest that AU was around long before WOD arrived on the scene so it's not a new, rubbish concept. Might have misread the 'new' bit relating to your behalf.
But as I said, the Bronze make more sense now then they ever did before because sometimes it simply looked like they were put in there to just show us some of the history of the world and nothing more. A vehicle to drive forward some gameplay and to splash some content in before they really grabbed the reigns of the story.

I'm sure in time they will explain the knowledge behind the multiple versions of Pantheon and so forth. They've only just told us that Azeroth was special for X reason and that was like a 12 year long parade of asking 'why the fuck are they here?'. At the moment it does seem incoherent but a lot of things seemed incoherent really until later, the game only gets so much lore because well you know as well as I do a business can only go so far even if the developers want to spend years doing it properly they won't be allowed to.

[TickTickTick]

How did you come to this conclusion?

Just my understanding of AUs/timelines taking into account new 'time-travelling' lore. Not my fault Blizz did a bad job at explaining it, bah, they themselves for sure dont understand it and make up stuff on the go (multiple pantheons but one legion, saying legion is invincible if not slain in the nether, then that bullshit blue post about Archimonde appeared etc etc). With what poor of a material we have now, I have the same right to this opinion as you have to yours.

The CoT / Infinite's case and Kairoz's case are two different things.

Opinion. Ofc they wouldnt come back to old CoT instances and change lore only cause they took another path with AU/time travelling.

The Infinite attempted to change timeways of our own universe's timeline. If they suceeded, our present would have been changed - that was stated as early as CoT introduction chain (i.e: "If Thrall never escapes, this world – as you know it – will cease to exist").

1. Old lore.
2. Explain to me how would it even be possible to cause the future to change with an act of changing the past in CoT. What with the people who didn't venture into CoT, how would they experience the sudden change of a whole history? As much as AU stuff makes little sense, it still makes more than the old CoT lore (which imo was overdramatised to make it matter).

On the other hand, Kairoz brought Garrosh to an alternate universe with its own timeline and its timeways.

The hourglass is an instrument of time, not magic. It's not a portal rune to teleport you to an already existing place. Otherwise a powerful mage like Khadgar would be able to venture all around the AU worlds.

How did that turn into "Based on new AUs lore, the moment Infinites succeed, it would spawn a NEW Azeroth in an alternate universe"? Would you mind enlightening me what AU lore are you talking about?

Current one. You're still stuck in old lore.

Whether you like it or not doesn't matter, though, it's canon. Otherwise, how'd we even discuss things if people just go "that doesn't convince me, that sounds like BS to me, I'm not listening to that" against canon lore whenever it doesn't suit their argument(s)?

How can you be so childish. I will gladly take any well-thought lore and change my views. But the quote we are talking about has nothing to do with lore. It's a short message which would easly be lowered to 5 words sentence, that much 'content' it has. It's basically 'Yes, right? It does, yeah and... its cool, yes!' Such a canon I can imagine he was scratching his head the whole time he typed that, wondering what answer to give.

Edit: since I forgot to put it in just now, Nozdormu DID encounter his alternate selves other than Murozond at least once. It was stated in WoTA triology:

So, which lore do we stick to now?
Old lore, in which the leaders of dragonflights were blessed by the titans to protect the world?
Or new lore, in which they were blessed by the titan watchers?
Cause in both they were blessed to protect Azeroth which contained the titan soul. What's even the point of another Nozdormu on a non titan soul planet.

And I love you.

Welp, my last reponse in this thread then. I've seen to many threads in these boards with people like you, creating small army and sucking each others dicks, cause they cant grasp the idea of different opinions. Quality duscussion.

You have even acknowledged of one known instance before WoD that it happens.

About this later.

Also, the Infinite Dragonflight invading our timeline as a threat, and succeeded it spawns a new timeline away from ours? I don't get where that comes from. If it spawn an entire new AU (away from the MU) then why even give two shits about them changing our history as we know it?

Thats my question as well. Shart answer: old lore. Same as the legion was the ultimate enemy in old lore, but now its place take the void lords. Lore changes and you have to adapt, not remain stuck in old principles.

Nevermind WOD has shown us that a new AU could mean big shit for us too when AU Gul'dan came to MU. But it's nothing to worry about.

Nevermind when you go outside, a whole building could collapse on you. I didnt say we shouldnt worry about it at all, but its certainly not the kind of threat it was advertised to be.

Sorry that doesn't make sense if being a threat to timeline with whatever the consequences happens spawns an AU somewhere. We wouldn't be dragged into it would we? No, so why even bother going back to these past events then?

Old lore (no idea how many more times must I repeat it). At the time of creating CoT it made some sense. In the current lore it doesnt. Its like asking yourself why did you help Garrosh in the Outlands if later on he made such a mess. The answer: how could we know?

Why have Caverns of Time in the first place.

Notice how there was no CoT instance with old lore design since Wotlk.
End Time: 100% AU, think we can all agree.
Wota: We took the dragon soul from there. We changed the course of history. It didnt have any effect on our present. For me its a sign of AU as well.
HoT: shouldnt even be in CoT since it takes place in present.

and then... no more CoT instances. What I think is they dropped the idea of CoT/infinites since it makes little sense with AU lore and they were already planning to implement it.

it directly affects MU like any other time-travelling laws that other franchises, material, media, so on obey which is why the Caverns of Time, the events we as mortals see and try to keep are there.

Would be interested in such materials. The ones which make as little sense and CoT/AU of Blizzards.

I didn't see much of Infinite being pesky in the AU really, surely they could spawn nth amount of crap in that one an make new AU that doesn't affect them! So they can make sure they never ever manage to converge onto one universe! I give Blizzard credit for their effort but even we can agree, they're not going to make that much work.

Again. They made A. few years later they decide to make B, which doesnt make much sense with there being A, so they drop A entirely.

No, I'm not sure how you could conclude that with the existence of Caverns of Time and when the AU Gul'dan managed to cross over into MU.

I should correct myself then. It wouldnt have changed anything to our would DIRECTLY. Gul'dan coming to our universe is not a direct change, but a chain of events.

Certainly none of the original dungeons in the Caverns of Time are in AU, the latter being End Time and so on are AU perhaps as much as Murozond is a concept that stems from AU ideal. Which again just really suggest that AU was around long before WOD arrived on the scene so it's not a new, rubbish concept. Might have misread the 'new' bit relating to your behalf.
But as I said, the Bronze make more sense now then they ever did before because sometimes it simply looked like they were put in there to just show us some of the history of the world and nothing more. A vehicle to drive forward some gameplay and to splash some content in before they really grabbed the reigns of the story.

You know what would make the most sense? If there was one Pantheon and one set of dragonflights. Bronze's task would be to check ALL timelines/universes and take care of it so that all universes go the same way, AND the infinites trying to meddle with AUs would have some bad influence on the whole multiverse.

I'm sure in time they will explain the knowledge behind the multiple versions of Pantheon and so forth. They've only just told us that Azeroth was special for X reason and that was like a 12 year long parade of asking 'why the fuck are they here?'. At the moment it does seem incoherent but a lot of things seemed incoherent really until later, the game only gets so much lore because well you know as well as I do a business can only go so far even if the developers want to spend years doing it properly they won't be allowed to.

Simple tip. Talk only about something that exists and do not create new lore in blue posts/tweets just because a fan asked you a question you'd never think they would ask, and you want to impress.

[Evangeliste]

About this later.

Alright.

Thats my question as well. Short answer: old lore. Same as the legion was the ultimate enemy in old lore, but now its place take the void lords. Lore changes and you have to adapt, not remain stuck in old principles.

Even if it's old lore, if it wasn't going to stand up in later lore, they retcon it. As you just mentioned, it's an old enemy but with new masters. They have kept demons which is old lore because it still benefits. That's how lore changes go for Blizzard, they won't change lore entirely when it still meets the purpose just for the sake of it. C'Thun is old lore but they haven't removed him completely because hey it's old lore and we want to renew it all, they changed things like the Titan that was felled is actually a Titanic Keeper but that's as far as it goes, so it more befitting of the Void lords and Old Gods power chain change. The reality is, we don't know all of their perceived writing because as consumers we only see the end project. Yes you have to adapt but adaptation doesn't equal to complete set of new skills all the time.

Nevermind when you go outside, a whole building could collapse on you. I didn't say we shouldn't worry about it at all, but its certainly not the kind of threat it was advertised to be.

Azeroth for many years was just advertised as a planet we lived on. Not a world soul. I'll put a bit of perspective on it. Infinite Dragonflight are tear away Bronze Dragonflight, sure but that doesn't mean their number in the same amounts as say Legion. No one as the player does. They could indeed be a small threat and advertised as a small threat but they are part and partial to the new lore (and using existing lore) to widen our perspective that there are a hell a lot of threats out there gagging to come to MU. In hindsight to new lore if the Old Gods are pushing Infinite Dragonflight forward, and now the Void Lords are the top of their food chain doesn't that put it into a better place of lore, that a commander is sending in troops isn't as big and as bad of an enemy as say warlord-general sending in the entire fucking army.
Take the view like this, they are 1 mob hitting you but they are part of a gang of 15 kicking your arse and depleting your HP. We would always assume they are a smaller threat when we weren't exposed to the bigger picture back then.

Old lore (no idea how many more times must I repeat it). At the time of creating CoT it made some sense. In the current lore it doesnt. Its like asking yourself why did you help Garrosh in the Outlands if later on he made such a mess. The answer: how could we know?

Do you mean Garrosh in Draenor? Because Outlands is the destroyed Draenor in MU and we're discussing AU quite heavily, so wanted confirmation first before I reply.

Notice how there was no CoT instance with old lore design since Wotlk.
End Time: 100% AU, think we can all agree.
Wota: We took the dragon soul from there. We changed the course of history. It didnt have any effect on our present. For me its a sign of AU as well.
HoT: shouldnt even be in CoT since it takes place in present.

War of the Ancients is old lore? And was added after Wrath of the Lich King. In 4.3 so quite late on into the expansion of Cataclysm for a start.
I would agree the WotA one is a little off in the game and it did get a few retcons here and there, it could relate to the AU and that we affect it so because our MU is meant to be the one, true timeline because we have the world soul. Hence the multiple pantheons and so on, because the MU timeline is the one place where Azeroth is a world soul and could effectively kick the butts of Old Gods and Void Lords. It's why the demons keep coming back, but this also means there is multiple Sargeras too which is mind boggling however could have been demon-fused so there could only be just the one.
Hour of Twilight is kinda silly here... The Hour of Twilight is actually the the end result of all the chain events instigated by the Old Gods! The instance is really a difficult one to bat and personally it was a really dumb title to give to the instance because I can't see too much correlation except perhaps that Old Gods are trying to cause it and you prevent it because the Dragon Soul needs to go to the Wyrmrest Temple and Deathwing is an agent of the Old God and potentially one of these chain events.
As for Hour of Twilight, with Dragon Soul location in Caverns... I would say that was a game development choice and in hindsight a bad one with lore. How to explain... Right we left Northrend to have Cataclysm. Now Northrend as it currently stands is a levelling zone, active and has been left in it's original form to allow the continuation of the gameplay. Now to redo a zone for both Dragon Soul and Hour of Twilight would involve Dragonblight in Northrend so if you use Dragonblight there then you could basically mess up that area for levelling. I'm sure you get this but I thought to say.
It's easy to make an instance obviously away from the original area and in this case copy Dragonblight, edit it after, the problem is where to anchor the entrance. If I direct you to Siege of Orgrimmar, notice how the raid starts off in Pandaria but you venture to Orgrimmar thanks to portals I add without having to redesign a home city located and active in the game. That's probably why they put it in Caverns because as it was released, it would be easier to travel to Caverns of Time and allow those instances to be actively accessible later for things like mounts, transmog (yes it was added in later but people still farmed gear to equip to RP in or just to lolafk in city) and so on because Cataclysm by then knew people were actively farming and encouraging it with achievements.

and then... no more CoT instances. What I think is they dropped the idea of CoT/infinites since it makes little sense with AU lore and they were already planning to implement it.

That is true buuuut not quite, I will add MoP was all about the present and wouldn't necessarily need it? The lore wouldn't fit either because they were basically away from everyone. Yes you could argue the Bronze would know, however here's the drop. They do. Or He does.
Timeless Isle. Yes it is just a content isle but I dunno if you did do quests but there was a chain that involved you powering up an hourglass, venturing to places like Siege of Orgrimmar where finally you go to *drumroll* Caverns of Time. Kairoz was involved in this questline too. I do agree that isle was a mash of a lot of things but the principle was mostly to do with Kairoz of the Bronze dragonflight.
If you know who Kairoz is, he isn't content with Bronze ideals and wants to change the future for the better... He believes in the what for Infinite Dragonflight are trying to do just not wholly their methods. Let's get technical here. In "The Trial of Garrosh Hellscream" this novel involves Kairoz in the build up to the events of WoD arms Zaela with infinite dragonflight mounts. In another novel "Hourney to Draenor" when Garrosh succeeds with Kairoz in going to this AU Draenor, Kairoz hopes in completing his plans to the Iron Horde from AU come to MU, in fact he was intent on going to loads of AU and funnelling them all to MU as they knew Legion were coming to MU. Which in my mind confirms that MU is the one, true timeline.
Novels are canon by the way. Hence why Chronicles is being released.

Would be interested in such materials. The ones which make as little sense and CoT/AU of Blizzards.

Each to their own.

Again. They made A. few years later they decide to make B, which doesnt make much sense with there being A, so they drop A entirely.

I don't see how they dropped things entirely here when AU involved original lore figures for a start with who had an agenda to change the future for the better on the same principles of lore that you deem irrelevant but aren't. You said about adapting and all but then you are shunning the idea that some things have to be changed indefinitely to make a better flow? You said also that things already in game and in place of lore have aspects of AU like Nozmordu acknowledging his alternative self so... I don't get how it makes no sense when in fact it does. And seems more evident you probably are overwhelmed by it and not see most of the links?

I should correct myself then. It wouldnt have changed anything to our would DIRECTLY. Gul'dan coming to our universe is not a direct change, but a chain of events.

Gul'dan has made a direct change to MU, if he didn't we wouldn't be going to Broken Shore, Varian would be alive, he killed him. Vol'jin too would be alive, Sylvanas wouldn't be Warchief, Elisandre and Suramar wouldn't be involved with him. Do I need to continue? You know Gul'dan directly killing Varian himself has a massive direct change on MU, changed the leadership to Alliance... Allowed demon hunters into Stormwind, Jaina disappearing and so on.
AU Gul'dan stepping foot into MU recoursed our future, because MU Gul'dan was DEAD. Meaning a dead Gul'dan in MU can't do something like kill Varian.

You know what would make the most sense? If there was one Pantheon and one set of dragonflights. Bronze's task would be to check ALL timelines/universes and take care of it so that all universes go the same way, AND the infinites trying to meddle with AUs would have some bad influence on the whole multiverse.

They had AU and that all along. It made sense to you up until they actually showed how big of a change these AU universe could implement on MU, especially when they come from AU to MU. Who said the Infinite aren't? Just because they're not in game, doesn't mean they won't be doing anything. Lore for World of Warcraft extends outside the game too. Heck they aided Kairoz with Zaela to get them to the AU universe in the first place.

Simple tip. Talk only about something that exists and do not create new lore in blue posts/tweets just because a fan asked you a question you'd never think they would ask, and you want to impress.

Firstly, he's publishing information that will be spread to tge public. They cannot under oath of contract divulge incorrect information and/or information they are not allowed to divulge. They could get fired, it's why the project Titan was so hush hush. Therefore the information in blues is genuine, written documentation by Blizzard. Unless you heard the blue poster get fired, which I doubt then you really don't get businesses.
Illidan was given to World of Warcraft in Black Temple as of patch 2.1. In Blizzcon 2011 being around patch 4.1 maybe 4.2, Metzen himself openly stated Illidan's body was not in Black Temple and technically not buried either. In 2016 patch 7.0, Illidan is revealed to be in stasis and prominent in Legion. Why did I state this? Because lore is written over a long time, it also has a point of constitency, in this case it took over 5 years for them to keep Illidan 'not being buried' to fruit.
They are not idiots to speak bullshit on stuff they don't know. In the end, they release information to us the consumer when they feel like it to which for the most part we don't understand the full picture until they deliver it to us. Can you see now why I said, give them time? Because we don't know the full reasoning now because they will release that information when it fits.

[Aquamonkey]

And how is it not? Explain.

The time travel lore still operates on being able to change history as well as having a multiverse. I've already linked the quotes. Garrosh changed history in the WoD-verse. Both concepts are still present in the Warcraft universe with the WoD stuff.

End Time: 100% AU, think we can all agree.

That was not AU. It was a possible future for our universe. We overwrote it with our actions.

"From what I understand, you intend to avoid this future. If this is true, then we must archive data from this timestrand before it is lost to us."

"While you and Nozdormu don't intend to overwrite this timestrand, as you did in the End Time, we can still benefit from more data."

Wota: We took the dragon soul from there. We changed the course of history. It didnt have any effect on our present. For me its a sign of AU as well.

I guess you missed the part of DS when Nozdormu says, "With my powers gone, the Dragon Soul has returned to its place in time."

Both the WoE and ET dungeons and the associated quests say that we're going to our past.

HoT: shouldnt even be in CoT since it takes place in present.

That and the DS portal were located there purely for gameplay simplicity.

Why is Dragon Soul in the Caverns of Time when the raid takes place at Wyrmrest Temple?
It's not quite as much for story reasons as it is for logistical ones. The raid starts in present day Dragonblight, heads over the Great Seas, and ends at the Maelstrom. The issue is that, unlike most raid instances, these are locations players can go visit in the world at any time. So we had to create instanced versions of them as settings for the raid. Because of this, we needed to put an instance portal somewhere. And due to the fact that the Caverns of Time locale fits with the rest of the story of the patch 4.3 dungeons, it seemed appropriate to put all the portals in the same place. (Source)

and then... no more CoT instances. What I think is they dropped the idea of CoT/infinites since it makes little sense with AU lore and they were already planning to implement it.

Infinites still exist, they show up in War Crimes. There is still history-changing time travel along with the AUs. Blizzard deciding to focus more on AUs recently doesn't negate the fact that history-changing time travel has happened and is still part of the Warcraft universe. It's even teased that some of the current depowered Bronzes are going down that path.

“We once knew the timeways inside and out,” she began. “We could see the past and the future with perfect clarity. Our flight’s charge, from the moment Nozdormu became our Aspect, was to protect the sanctity of the timeline. And we were given vast power to do this. Now... things aren’t quite so clear. We can still travel the timeways, but we don’t have that perfect knowledge anymore. That’s why we’ve enlisted mortals to help us keep the timeline safe. But there have been some mutterings. Some of us think that perhaps we should use what skills we have left to manipulate the timeways. Alter the past, change the future to something better.”
She smiled sadly. “Of course, who’s to say what is ‘better’? Especially when we don’t have the perfect insight we once did. That’s what’s held most of us back. But it’s obvious now that Kairoz was among those who thought that the bronze dragons could and should change things. He always did like to tinker...” Her voice trailed off.
--War Crimes

[Qualia]

1. Old lore.
2. Explain to me how would it even be possible to cause the future to change with an act of changing the past in CoT. What with the people who didn't venture into CoT, how would they experience the sudden change of a whole history? As much as AU stuff makes little sense, it still makes more than the old CoT lore (which imo was overdramatised to make it matter).

Firstly, just because it's "old lore" doesn't mean it's not canon any longer. Unless there is any piece of new information directly and clearly contradicts with the old lore (and thus, retcon it), old lore would still be canon lore. Even quests that was removed from the game are still considered canon if they aren't retconned - according to Blizzard - much less something that is still in the game. I don't believe there is anything that directly / clearly contradicts with the CoT introduction chain, is there?

As to how the future would change - it probably would have changed the same way as in almost every time travel stories. The moment a different outcome happened in the past, the future / present would change itself to a new one. Everyone and everything (maybe with the exception of the one that was interferring with time) would be replaced with their "updated" selves and have no memory about being changed. When the one travelled back in time came back to the future, he / she / it would have seen a completely different, changed future. While it wasn't elaborated in details, it was briefly touched in the CoT introduction chain too: "What you see now may very well not exist tomorrow. You may wake up yesterday and have no memory of this place"

The hourglass is an instrument of time, not magic. It's not a portal rune to teleport you to an already existing place. Otherwise a powerful mage like Khadgar would be able to venture all around the AU worlds.

It's an instrument of time, a magic tool. It facilitate, or at least allowed Kairozdormu to travel accross the multiverse - as he stated himself: "I will discover miraculous new uses for the shard. We will use it to travel to any world we please" (and that's just a shard + Kairoz's power, not even the hourglass anymore), helped Kairoz & Garrosh to escape to AU: "The hourglass was destroyed getting us here", or finally helped Garrosh to connect back to our time.

As to whether Khadgar can do the same, we don't know. Khadgar is a mortal - a very powerful mage, but a mortal all the same. The Bronze Dragonflight has power over time, even after they were weakened at the end of Cata. Additionally, Khadgar never managed to get his hand on any shard. Still, that isn't the point of our current discussion, is it?

Current one. You're still stuck in old lore.

How can you be so childish. I will gladly take any well-thought lore and change my views. But the quote we are talking about has nothing to do with lore. It's a short message which would easly be lowered to 5 words sentence, that much 'content' it has. It's basically 'Yes, right? It does, yeah and... its cool, yes!' Such a canon I can imagine he was scratching his head the whole time he typed that, wondering what answer to give.

And which "current one" is it? I'm asking you to provide me a quote from a canonical source that stated something in the line of the AU was spawned as the result of Kairoz & Garrosh's action. If you meant *your* interpretation of the current lore, then it's not "current lore" and certainly not canon.

I'm not sure how it is childish to say that canon is canon regardless of whether you like it or not. Anything that come out from Blizzard will be automatically canon, unless refuted or retconned by Blizzard later, regardless how absurd or stupid it might be. That's how Word of God works. The fact that you don't like it or you don't consider it well-thought doesn't make it non-canon. At the moment, you are rejecting canon (that AU has always existed) and pushing your own interpretation as fact because you don't like the canon bit, that's not how we discuss things in lore - whatever fiction it is, not just limited to WoW. Again, if we are rejecting canonical information we don't like, to what extent would it go? "That tweet is too short, not canon"? "That Q&A Blizzcon section answer is too short, not canon"? "That book is terrible with bad writing, not canon"? "The Chronicle was written like some fan-fiction, not canon"?

So, which lore do we stick to now?
Old lore, in which the leaders of dragonflights were blessed by the titans to protect the world?
Or new lore, in which they were blessed by the titan watchers?
Cause in both they were blessed to protect Azeroth which contained the titan soul. What's even the point of another Nozdormu on a non titan soul planet.

Let's make this clear first - in all versions of the lore, the Aspects were empowered / blessed by the Pantheon. Even in Chronicle, it was stated clearly that the Keepers only acted as conduit to channel the power of the Pantheon into the Aspects, and they asked / requested their creators to empower those Aspects instead of doing it by themselves. That's the same as the event in "Dawn of the Aspects". The new lore (DoTA / Chronicle) only elaborate the event, it didn't change the fact that the Aspects were empowered by the Pantheon. Secondly, I admit I haven't been following this thread from the start, but is there any statement from Blizzard saying that AU Azeroth doesn't contain a world soul?

Additionally, since you seem to stuck with the "old lore vs new lore" a lot - let me just repeat myself: old lore doesn't mean it's non-canon. So claiming something to be "old lore" doesn't really mean anything. If by old lore you meant "retconned lore", feel free to give us the quote from a canonical source that refuted it, or a bit of canon information that clearly contradicts to it. Otherwise, old lore, even if it was released 20 years ago, hold as much canonical value as new lore.

End Time: 100% AU, think we can all agree.
Wota: We took the dragon soul from there. We changed the course of history. It didnt have any effect on our present. For me its a sign of AU as well.

End Time is a possible future of our universe. It's not an AU. It's a timeway of our timeline, not a timeway of an AU's timeline. In regards to WoTA, it's our universe. When we took the Dragon Soul to the present, the Bronze Dragonflight halted the flow of history to negate the impact, as Nozdormu said it in Charge of the Aspect: "Time isss not as linear as some might think. My flight will halt the flow of history to negate the impact we make on the past. But we can hold together the integrity of the timewaysss only for so long. When our work isss done, we will return the Dragon Soul to its rightful place". After Deathwing was destroyed, the Dragon Soul was returned right to the moment we took it, so it actually never disappeared from the past even for just a single moment.